Originally Posted by Yohan
very outdated system in today's game.
The problem with it being, with so many teams these days playing 5 in mid, you can get over-run in that area. You could get away with it in home games, but in away games it would be dangerous.
SJ, LA, Houston all use a variation of this formation.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
Two DMs can score if they are decent passers, and you are playing 4-4-1-1. They just need to get the ball to the SS, or to the wingers.
If you want to rant and rave - knock yourself out - it is a free world - but don't expect everyone to want to listen, especially when you are ignoring very obvious positive changes.
Perhaps I am mistaken in thinking you are happy with:
- no longer being owned by the Ontario teachers pension plan
- Richard Peddie's reduced influence
- Tim Leiweke - new president and CEO of MLSE
- Tom Anselmi out of our hair
- Cochrane reduced to coffee boy
- Duncan Oughton stolen out from under Columbus' nose
- the nice work on the cap space
- how about that "trade" of Hassli and his wife to Dallas - that was magic!
And of course I am sure you would rather have short pants, monkey dance at the helm instead of Nelsen...???
Oh - and don't let me forget - you would probably prefer to pay jacked up 2013 ticket prices instead of 2007 prices???
Geez - lest we forget - we had ZERO points in league games at this point last year. I think I must have lost track... Do we have less than ZERO this year?
*** BTW ... Why do I have to list all this out for you? Are you Rip van Winkle??
I would say the biggest problem parked at the feet of the current management is extremely negative "supporters" who have been in a very dark place, for so long, that they can no longer recognize and appreciate positive change when it is happening right under their nose.
Since we are all in such a negative mood here, lets just ship out:
Agboss, Bendik, Califf, Earnshaw, Eckersley, Koev, Laba, O'Dea, Osorio, Silva
These guys are just all lazy buggers who don't give a shit, have no character and contribute nothing to the team...
Last edited by tiberius; 05-10-2013 at 06:13 PM.
^ Listen I like Nielsen AND must as in the first year of Winter, I kind saw what he was trying to do , and I saw improvement on the pitch despite the lack of results, I also see what Nielsen is trying to do and I kind of like it, and I see some improvement in the overall organization of the team. HOWEVER, in light of the resutls I cannot blame anyone for being less then impressed and not a believe. There is plenty of reasons of pessimism then optimism right now. However, I stay optimistic for now.
QUOTE=tiberius;1583291]Could someone start "the glass is 1/16th full - chicken little - doomer gloomer" thread and can all of the really negative, darkly depressed folk go there to vent? Please. Great positive structural changes have been made to this team. Little of the challenges and problems I see, can I truthfully park at the feet of the current management. I see quite a few players I like, more on the way, and some of the less talented players will depart. Our games are generally easier to watch this year (at least for the first 75 minutes). A long way to go yet (too much hoofball), for sure, but ignoring the changes, the improvements etc. just get us and the team nowhere.
A little moaning and groaning is only human, given the situation, but the flat out, full on negative nellies are giving me hives. Now is not the time for a negative pile-on. If you really want to kick ass and take names, save it for the summer of 2014.
You want to be pissed and vent? Then be pissed at something real. For instance, Emory's completely incompetent screw up last Saturday night, inside the six. That is one of the all time inept plays in TFC history - in-fucking-credible!! That tops any Nick Garcia play I can recall... but perhaps my memory is fading and I am being too generous to Nick...
Although I am really pissed about Emory's incompetence, I won't let that interfere with me recognizing the improvements that have been made, and even having a spark of optimism, now and again...[/QUOTE]
not bad rant
ALL HELL'S BROKEN LOOSEhttp://gfycat.com/SharpKindArrowana
http://www.soccerbyives.net/2013/05/...s-matches.html
Chavez suspended 2 games for that elbow on emory
Would have helped if he got the damn red in the game.
Yup. If MLS thinks this is an adequate compensation for the incompetent officiating of the match, they have their head up their nether regions.
Nelsen
Can I add one Caveat for you and Voodoo, and anyone else who is deeply concerned?
Can we assume that the problems we see tactically with respect to maintaining possession might also be seen by management and actually wait to see if they fix it?
It's one thing to say "we're playing old fashioned British longball." It's another to say "we're playing old fashioned British longball, our manager doesn't recognize that it won't work , and won't adjust, so we'll keep losing forever."
I would, even at the risk of giving a guy more time than he deserves, prefer to actually wait a season before getting even remotely pissed. Why? Because Jason Kreis, Sigi Schmid and Frank Yallop have all shown in the past that they could take that long to recognize what was and wasn't working, both in terms of personnel and tactical approach. And they all went on to win titles.
If they hadn't been given a season (two in Schmid's case) where they looked just about as prone to losing as we do now, none of those titles would necessarily have happened.
In the last game, it appeared to me that Nelsen acted in a manner that was tactically naive. In the second half, San Jose took advantage of a lack of width caused by effectively playing a 4-1-3-2. They switched field more quickly, and pushed it up the flanks quickly, giving them dominant field position and pinning us back. Rather than play a flat four mid or sit the fullback back on the weak side to more easily pick up the isolated player, we just allowed them to do it, banking I assume that playing to win the second ball in a congested centre of the pitch would give us quick counterattacks. Instead, it played into Yallop's strategy.
Add that to our insistence on playing zonally on set pieces (three game-changing goals from marking mistakes in six games) and our problems aren't just mistakes by players; they're also down to a new coaching staff not adapting, or not getting the players to adapt. So it's not just the players' fault.
Having said that, the solution to this in MLS, it seems, has never been to turn over more staff and players per year than any other team on average in league history. We've tried that route. Since that is the only end that being irate can support, it would seem to me the more logical thing would be to curb our collective tempers, instead, and wait and see. Perhaps when you have a manager who motivates well, is respected and can create a positive culture it's worth giving him a fairly long amount of time to fix mistakes.
Last edited by jloome; 05-11-2013 at 01:33 AM.
^ good post right there.
jloome,
I am one who said that we should not set are goals low this year. So now 10 games in I am changing my tune, but I am not adverse to waiting the full season if there is growth. As I said for some reason Nelsen [Blizzard-long day at conference] I tend to believe in. Well, the reason is he seems to be introducing a style of play that I believe will work in this league, and is somewhat the style that I prefer. [Winter also was, to an extent, Milan have played a 4-3-3 or version of it for a while, but at some point I found Winter to be tactically inflexible not adjusting the 4-3-3 to the needs and weakness of the squad]
Very good post.
btw disagree about the likeliest reason for the problems with set piece marking. I think the culprits are (i) lack of time together, and (ii) brain cramps, ie it is the players fault
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
I am so damn impressed that this thread has turned positive.
Jloome, trane and ensco know more about football than me and it is nice to learn from them without nasty undertones.
Great post.
That may be the case, but even still....why would they ever go to playing long ball at all? What purpose does it serve if it's not going to be tactic they use in the future? What players stand to benefit from playing half a season (or more) like this? How does hoofing the ball over the midfielders help guys like Bekker, Osorio, Silva etc?
That's why I hate it. It's counter productive.....even when it yields a point here or there. It's 1 step forward and 5 steps back.
I'm fine with giving Nelsen time. I've said so several times. I just want to see a plan and progress in the meantime. I don't care to see him employ some archaic tactics and mentality that is going to be abandoned when he gets better players. Implement the style of play you plan on playing from day one. If he did that I'd have no problem with giving him as much time as is required. I just hate the "temporary" style that is being bolstered by the "temporary" players.I would, even at the risk of giving a guy more time than he deserves, prefer to actually wait a season before getting even remotely pissed. Why? Because Jason Kreis, Sigi Schmid and Frank Yallop have all shown in the past that they could take that long to recognize what was and wasn't working, both in terms of personnel and tactical approach. And they all went on to win titles.
If they hadn't been given a season (two in Schmid's case) where they looked just about as prone to losing as we do now, none of those titles would necessarily have happened.
Definitely agree on the set pieces. Go man to man so that, at the very least, guys know when they've made a mistake and can adjust the next time. Zonal marking allows players to point the finger at the other guy, which is very easy to do when you have no chemistry because you haven't played together much.In the last game, it appeared to me that Nelsen acted in a manner that was tactically naive. In the second half, San Jose took advantage of a lack of width caused by effectively playing a 4-1-3-2. They switched field more quickly, and pushed it up the flanks quickly, giving them dominant field position and pinning us back. Rather than play a flat four mid or sit the fullback back on the weak side to more easily pick up the isolated player, we just allowed them to do it, banking I assume that playing to win the second ball in a congested centre of the pitch would give us quick counterattacks. Instead, it played into Yallop's strategy.
Add that to our insistence on playing zonally on set pieces (three game-changing goals from marking mistakes in six games) and our problems aren't just mistakes by players; they're also down to a new coaching staff not adapting, or not getting the players to adapt. So it's not just the players' fault.
I'm totally okay with waiting and seeing. Although I don't know how you know that Nelsen motivates well and can create a positive culture. He's never coached a day in his life so I find it strange that, after 10 games, you're confident in saying that he's a good motivator and can create a positive culture.Having said that, the solution to this in MLS, it seems, has never been to turn over more staff and players per year than any other team on average in league history. We've tried that route. Since that is the only end that being irate can support, it would seem to me the more logical thing would be to curb our collective tempers, instead, and wait and see. Perhaps when you have a manager who motivates well, is respected and can create a positive culture it's worth giving him a fairly long amount of time to fix mistakes.
At the end of the day I'm just irritated by the notion that I should be happy about the "progress"....of which I see almost none. (on the pitch)
Last edited by v00d00daddy; 05-11-2013 at 03:58 PM.
You need to play a system that the players that you've got can play, not as an excuse for preferring an outdated system (c.f. Mariner), but because they genuinely can't do better.
Don't worry about retraining these players in a more sophisticated system (which was Winter's mistake). Most of these players will be gone by next year.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
If the only style of play that our players can pull off is long ball garbage then I'd suggest we don't even have a CSL calibre team, let alone MLS calibre.
I think the "our players aren't good enough to play anything other than long ball" mentality is just a cover up for "our players can't play (insert style here) that we want to play and my safety net (based on where I played) is garbage long ball so I'll have them play that".
It's a complete cop out. If Darren O'Dea, Richard Eckersely, Boss/Califf, Richter, Morgan, Emory or anyone else can't do anything other than hoof the ball out then they're all shit and all need to go. I don't think that's the case. I think they all have some level of ability that would allow them to do more than kick the ball 50 yards at a time. (Bendik too).
I think it's more a case of Nelsen asking them to do it. And that's a problem.
As for Winter's problem being "retraining" guys...I don't see it. I don't think he wanted to retrain anyone. He wanted to see who had the basic fundamental skills to play a possession based game. Unfortunately he had a "colleague" that didn't share his vision and didn't seek out players to help him.
I had no problem with Winter being fired. Lack of results will do it. But to suggest that the "vision" that they were trying to implement was a failure is completely wrong. It was never given a fair shot.
Now I'm expected to give the new regime a no questions asked season or two? Why? I'll wait and see but I'll ask questions in the meantime. ESPECIALLY when the coach is not even a coach and has zero experience. People who are willing to let Nelsen do whatever he wants without asking questions are literally handing the steering wheel to a guy who has never driven before. And doing it with a smile. LOL It seems a bit ridiculous to me.
Last edited by v00d00daddy; 05-11-2013 at 06:29 PM.
Without outlets, hoof ball becomes the approach. We are playing to what is being provided.
I get the feeling more was expected of Bostock and Ephraim to provide those outlets. Neither of them seem to want to be out on the wing, and are having issues finding space without coming inside.
I am in a fog about Lambe. Can't tell what he's doing.
It's always easier to cover set pieces man-to-man unless you're badly physically outmatched, because your players are already moving to track their man, so they approach their attack of the ball with momentum. Playing a zone, players have more tendency to ball watch and wait for the ball to enter their supposed zone of influene. Additionally, it's easier for most defenders to get between their man and the ball or their man and the goal if they're not identifying who that man is a split second before the ball gets there.
Not sure if this was posted already, but Chavez was suspended two games for the elbow on Emory.
Unbelievable that the ref didn't pick that up at the time.
As I understand it, you need both.
You cover players in the box man to man + 2 zone for errant balls.
Is that not the common wisdom?
It's been discussed somewhere around here. It's a total piss off of course as if the referee gives the red at the time as he should have done, it is a potential game changer.
The league may feel that punishment after the fact is a good idea but a better idea is to get it right during the match. Obviously MLS does not trust its referees to be able to do that.
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