This. All we've done since the beginning of this team is change, change, change, change. New players, new managers, new formations...Originally Posted by Huyton
And guess what we have from all that? SHIT FUCK ALL.
Give the current team a couple of seasons, at the very least. Stop the revolving door.
Toronto FC baby...best team everrrrrrrrrr -Jozy
SERENITY NOW!!!
Funny that the OP mentions a few former players that he misses: Plata, Cronin, LaBrocca, Maicon Santos, DeRo -- w/o realizing a few things about these guys:
- Many of them are gone due to previous turmoil in the team: coaching/management turnover; freeing up cash for the next quick fix attempts; etc. Plata for example quite plainly did not want to be here anymore after last year's turmoil & short-term thinking.
- Much of the problems with DeRo started with MoJo's attempt of a "massive signing" ASAP, appeasing supporters, and getting into the play-offs quick (long term implications be dammed) even though he actually couldn't afford it. So he made a verbal promise about future salary increases, which is actually illegal under league rules -- but then couldn't/wouldn't keep those promises, and in the end wasn't even here any more. Plus the problem of getting a single star player, who plays best in a certain role that you struggle to provide, and surrounding him with quick-fix crap for much of the time he was here. Then trying the next "quick fix" by adding some other expensive players, much-touted in some circles (JDG, etc.) -- which only pissed off DeRo even more.
- Many of the players he mentions had significant issues or performance slumps while with TFC, with lots of detractors saying they should be "dumped asap, trade them, whatever." That's especially true for a bunch of other players not mentioned who were dumped for minimal return as part of other quick fixes, only to do just fine elsewhere in the league.
The very best thing this management team can do is not listen to us or any other supporters about which players to hire/fire, how to play, etc. It would be good if they listen about some in-game improvements for the supporters & other fans; pricing; etc. But not about on-field stuff!
Last edited by Auzzy; 05-06-2013 at 10:58 AM.
I think I've got it. Big name signing who can single handedly win games:
Well said Auzzy.
I agree with those preaching patience.
I just question where these people were when we had a plan and needed time to implement it under Winter and Deklerk?
We should be on year 3 of the rebuild right now. Unfortunately we also had fuckhead mariner (coincidentally there were a few people backing him that are now here preaching patience)
It's a shit show. We werent patient before and we're doing it all over again.
Only difference is that before we were waiting for possession based, technical football.
Now....well now I have no idea what we're being patient for. But what I've seen so far does not inspire confidence.
If Payne/Nelsen build a team focussing on athleticism and "heart/personality" then I'll be out for good.
Either way...if they don't show progress at some point this year it may all be moot because BMO will be empty anyway.
If I remember correctly when Beckham first came to LA they were a shit team, he played with them for a few years before they became a top MLS team. By then they had got other DP's and quality players to join the team.
Beckham is no 1 man show, he crosses the ball well, but he needs other players to finish it, that would never work with the current TFC team we have and a player like Beckham is way over priced. He came in this league to sell tickets and t-shirts and he did just that, the league is at a whole new level compared to where it was 7 years ago, but TFC would need a different type of player, and to be honest it would probably take a few years to get this team in playoffs, no one man can carry the whole team.
I'll take this one, as I was definitely one of those you are talking about.
Personally, I never "bought into" the plan that Winter and De Klerk were implementing. I don't think bring a system that worked in a football club in a "free" (not limited to the MLS cap and squad limitation) league would ever work in the MLS. The MLS is FAR too controlled to implement the Ajax system, the average MLS player just isn't going to be able to play it. If we are talking about using that system in a free league without those limitations (Swansea have successfully done it) then I would be all in agreement. I just never ever thought that this system would ever work here. Hence, I just had no patience with it at all.
That, plus Winter and his team were getting WORSE and not better throughout his reign, then I lost all patience by the end. I was fine in the first season with Winter, assuming that he would work with the squad over the winter and improve come the second season. However, they definitely got worse, a lot lot worse!
Nelson DOES appear to be putting together a system - its a high pressing, front 3rd heavy pressure game. That type of game has been very successful in the MLS over the years, and there are a lot of MLS players who are well capable of that type of game. That's why I am preaching patience.
Other people may have different reasons, but those are mine.
There were lots of problems along the way. Having Mariner and Cochrane involved was certainly one problem. But Winter's inexperience in MLS was certainly an issue as well. I know progress isn't always a straight line, but I think it's reasonable to say with 9 straight losses more than a year out of the gate it tarnished Winter's credibility badly.
I would have preferred if they cleaned out the everyone but continued on with the vision under a new coach. They screwed up by not firing Mariner and Cochrane as well as not having someone continue what was started.
It was a good plan. I really doubt Aron Winter was the person who was going to pull it off though.
One of the key pieces that made LA as a good as there were was Juninho - the South American holding mid...
Well said, but however I like how Nelsen got the team pressuring up front since MLS defenders aren't that technically good.
I agree to that. How many players and coaches have supporters been screaming at to be fired or hired and what happened??? the players went else where and did well or we hired and then they ended up being a complete flop (sometimes we also never gave them a chance to improve).
This is it exactly and if anyone wants to cry about it being based on 'althetics', 'heart', or 'desire' then I will point out Sporting K.C as they play the exact same system and have been for 2 years already. And if anyone says it's different because they do it in a 4-3-3 then that person deserves to be slapped.
I agree with the rest of your post but disagree with this. Portland is doing fine right now playing the way we said we wanted to. But they have all their people on the same page and a coach who understands North American football.
I almost think the Swansea point runs counter to what you're saying. Swansea has far less resources compared to other clubs in the prem and they have to worry about getting relegated. We don't have either of those problems. Sure, the skill set of an MLS player is limited, but you can always find ways around that. Because so few clubs are trying to play this way it means that a lot of guys who meet the requirements in this league are undervalued. There are tradeoffs, it's not just a matter if getting a group of superior footballers. They might be better in some way but worse in others. Using the system to maximize strengths and hide weaknesses makes it all possible ( like any team tries to do).
Agreed, there is a difference between formation and system, or formation and style. You can play the high pressing game with any formation (well, maybe not with 8-1-1!).
I don't blame you. Based on the current mix of USL-quality players, it's hard to see consistency, and Payne doesn't go for propaganda (like the previous "our team will play like Ajax and Barcelona" hype).
Based on Payne's previous work at DC, here's what you would see:
(1) A classic counter-attacking style (think LA)
(2) A more technical style than most MLS teams, but with athleticism continuing to be important
(3) A strong latin-influence
Add Nelsen and you get:
(4) High-pressure tactics
The majority of the current players cannot play this way. We will see more turnover and squad improvements. At some point it will come together.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
I believe the Academy was intended to address your first concern, and the second I've highlighted could be explained away by the presence of Mariner and Cochrane.
Still, no point reminiscing about what might have been, let's get on with what we've got in front of us.
BTW, has Rudy been around since he started this thread ?
Last edited by TOBOR !; 05-06-2013 at 01:34 PM.
a ha ha heh he hoo.. ha
I would add: with Nelsen it doesn't really end up a "classic counter-attacking style" much of the time. In many cases, you will end up with very short counter-attacks, half-field length or less, due to where they try to regain possession. That has already led to a number of goals & good chances for TFC this season. As mentioned in a couple of interviews, they call it "defend to attack." Press high while the opposition has the ball, maintain tight lines in midfield and defense -- but always have an eye on the immediate next pass & next run possible if your team regains possession.
If you can at least force the opposition to maintain possession in their own half, you're also protecting your own goal.
What I've seen from attempts at "technical play" or "latin style" while attacking has only been bits and pieces so far. But in the best sections of TFC's best games in 2013, I have seen more passing, attempts at give & go and other overlaps, and willingness to take on & dribble past opponents than many of TFC's previous coaches.
Of course there's also been long ball: way too much from Bendik; also a bit too many hopeful balls from the likes of Boss; and some attempts over the top to Earnshaw when the opponent is playing a high defensive line. (Latter not a bad idea as long as they don't try it too often.)
Admittedly, often it's looked very different, and sometimes quite awful. E.g., not sure why TFC sometimes sits back so far especially towards the end of the game. Too tired/lack of concentration? Is Nelsen sometimes asking them to sit back to "defend a lead or draw" which never works? Why so much useless long ball from Bendik? Some of this might be failed strategy; some of it lack of quality as Oldtimer suggests.
From the OP:
Two words:
1. Robert
2. EARNSHAW
Then see above about a high pressing game under Nelsen.
Next?
We are the Angry Mob, we read the papers every day
We like who we like, we hate who we hate
But we're also easily swayed
I agree with T-Boy's points regarding the capability for Winter to implement what he was trying to do. I did want it to work but it probably was doomed from the start without squad flexibility, between the existing contracts and the confines of the salary cap, available int'l slots, etc. Hadn't thought about it that way before.
What about 1. Robert 2. Earnshaw? He scored a few (lucky) goals in 11 games.... and?
Somebody doesn't remember Cunningham or Barret.
And if you think pressing caused goals are luck, well.........
Moderator
From a business perspective, I actually kind of agree with Rudy that some kind of Beckham-level signing probably is necessary to resuscitate public interest in the franchise. But if the team is still shit, there won't be any wave to ride from such a signing in the afterglow.
As for pointing out that DCU and TFC are 9th and 10th right now, that just strikes me as the fallacy of weird, small, specifically picked out data samples (I'm not much for coining terms). Use reasonable, large datasets, or don't use them at all - anything else is just sophistry. Same goes for pointing out when a few of the dozens of players to come and go from our team, have a good week (nor does the performance of someone we traded away 2-3 years ago really have anything to do with the current management regime).
My opinion of Payne/Nelson still hasn't fully formed, though I think they still deserve more time. We are never going to solve our issues, if we keep calling for coaches and managers to be sent to the stockades after a few months. I don't know if I buy the argument that they deserve at least a couple of years, simply because we haven't "tried" that yet (a bad manager is a bad manager - it doesn't matter how long you cling to them), but I understand the sentiment.
Right now I'm still content to wait, and observe - without giving an endorsement, or calling for their heads.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
Thats'a a very good point. Barrett especially - plus he was earning almost double Earnshaw's salary! Pressing doesn't mean goals, you still need the composure to finish the goal off - Earnshaw has that where a lot of otheres don't. You create your own luck in football, Earnshaw's quick thinking and pressure has brought him goals, that's not luck, that's actually talent.
it was never Winters fault
and its not the supporters fault either....lets agree on this at least.
St. Jose's game just over. GREAT Game for Earnshaw. Laba was highly effective. Ephraim played a key game. Braun's goal was convincing. Bendik's kicks were accurate. Payne has certinly put together a winning team. beautiful play. lots of control and posessession tonight. No complex. Great spirit for full 95mins. Great job Payne and Nelson. Much improvement over last year's Winter's Team.....
I just knew you were going to do this. Did you see how we played in the first half? Compare that to anything we have done in the last 3 years. Do you realise how BAD we were as an organization back in December?
We had no scouts. None. Mariner did it using TV and free trips to Bermuda. Heck, even Conference South teams in the UK had more contacts then we had in December.
You're asking for too much. NO President or coach would be able to get TFC to where you think they should be now. Your point is we should be better. Others on here think we couldn't be what you think we should be. Nobody is happy with watching games like that. But to say Payne and Nelsen are doing badly is simply something we can not judge yet.
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