Why such low expectations? Why not ask for more?

[trane]

Every year, I find myself more at odds with what seems to be the pervailing RPB/TFC supporters culutre. This year, I cannot believe what low expectations so many of the supporters have set for this team. FOR FUCK SAKES this is year SEVEN, yes we are rebuiling again but this is the MLS, you have to demand more. This club can win this year, but they will not if there is not pressure on them.

I have like what I have see on the field ( in relative terms of course) but they need to get results. Supporters should tell them, we need to see results, and not once again, well it takes time....

[Yohan]

Every year, I find myself more at odds with what seems to be the pervailing RPB/TFC supporters culutre. This year, I cannot believe what low expectations so many of the supporters have set for this team. FOR FUCK SAKES this is year SEVEN, yes we are rebuiling again but this is the MLS, you have to demand more. This club can win this year, but they will not if there is not pressure on them.

I have like what I have see on the field ( in relative terms of course) but they need to get results. Supporters should tell them, we need to see results, and not once again, well it takes time....

Parity does make it possible for MLS teams to make a quick turnaround, but the odds of that happening is becoming harder and harder. Team chemistry is the best way to success in MLS.

I suppose TFC might catch fire and go on an amazing run. Certainly the results have been positive considering relative strength of teams TFC has faced so far, with not getting blown out and getting points when TFC had no business doing so.

If you ramp up the pressure on KP and Nelsen too much, and they don't deliver, then what? Fire them? Because that should be the only consequences of not meeting expectations.

I'm not giving KP and Nelsen a free pass. However, I am realistic in my expectations that TFC is not competitive, at least on paper in comparison to most MLS teams. Considering the crap KP had to hose out before putting his team together, I think KP deserves a bit more rope than usual.

I also think Nelsen being able to get results has raised the expectations from a lot of supporters. Understandable, but I think these people are bound to be expected sooner or later.

[spark]

Every year, I find myself more at odds with what seems to be the pervailing RPB/TFC supporters culutre. This year, I cannot believe what low expectations so many of the supporters have set for this team. FOR FUCK SAKES this is year SEVEN, yes we are rebuiling again but this is the MLS, you have to demand more. This club can win this year, but they will not if there is not pressure on them.

I have like what I have see on the field ( in relative terms of course) but they need to get results. Supporters should tell them, we need to see results, and not once again, well it takes time....

If a club has a sound and professional infrastructure, I'd agree with this 100%. I do not know if most people agree with this, but I personally do not think for the last 6 seasons this team has had anything close to a professional set up, as most of us would expect from a football club. Maybe on the business and marketing side, but not football side. As a result, I personally believe Nelsen et al when he tries to explain how this club was not at ground zero when they got here but six feet under.

Do you think TFC is anywhere close to Houston or Los Angeles? In terms of leadership, culture etc? Those are, IMO, good examples of a clubs being able to bounce back in one year and do well.

I also agree a club should be able to be competitive in a season - but I'm not willing to discount how fucked up this club was over the last three seasons and it will likely take more than one to clean it up.

[Initial B]

TFC may have been around for 7 years now, but this may as well be a year one expansion club - New President, New Coaches, New Players... You may as well forget everything that came before (I sure am trying to).

I agree with Yohan that chemistry is probably the most important element for MLS teams, and TFC simply didn't have any at the start of the preseason. Even adding players now will disrupt whatever chemistry is building between the players. The only place I see chemistry building now is the back line, which should be stable for the next 2 years barring injuries. It looks to me like KP is looking to get our defensive core in place this year with the defenders and defensive midfielders (whenever they arrive this season) in place. The offense is another story - Silva will still be around in 2 years probably, but Koevs will be gone at the end of the season and the remaining players are all up in the air depending on how loans turn out.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think my expectations are low, just realistic in terms of how long it will take the team to gel. I don't think we'll see what TFC is truely capable of until the end of the 2014 season. Is it frustrating? Sure. I ask myself why they couldn't have got it right in year one, but the answer keeps coming back to the incompetent triumverate of Tom Anselmi, Richard Peddie, and Larry Tannenbaum.

But most importantly, I think I've allowed my hopes to get up too many times only to have it dashed time-and-time again. (5-0 in NY, anyone?) I yelled and railed at management and all they did was panic and make short-sighed decisions to please the fanbase which got us in a worse position year after year as those three franticly tried to save their skins by throwing everyone else under the bus whenever it was to their advantage. Honestly, I'm afraid to hope for more, and that's sad. I'll take the little victories right now wherever they appear. Maybe next year I'll have built up enough confidence in the organization where I'll want to demand more.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I want them to win every game they've drawn so far. Each time it was within their grasp. I want their roster to improve. It will at the end of the month.


Did you have anything specific in mind when making your demands?

[Technorgasm]

maybe im in the minority here, but my expectations have been the same since day one.
score in every home game.
win , lose or draw.

It would be FANTASTIC if we were to win, fget post season ect.
But I go, and continue to be interested in this team for the folks I love in the stands.

They dont change, the personnel of the squad does.
I guess I take a much longer view on the team as a hole, while take MASSIVE pleasure from complaining about every granual detail.. . .

ONWARD!
FEAR FREE!

[MartinUtd]

Broken promise fatigue?

I get the the lower expectations, but I agree they shouldn't be THAT low. The people that think a point/game is a sign of improvement leave me scratching my head, but at the same time I don't expect playoffs and the voyagers cup. We're capable of it, especially with the two signings we're supposed to be locking up, I just don't see any results as a guarantee after 4 managers in two and a half seasons (the rate of turnover has actually increased over time).

[prizby]

Every year, I find myself more at odds with what seems to be the pervailing RPB/TFC supporters culutre.

some have tried to speak up, but get drown out; others just leave

[TOBOR !]

Every year, I find myself more at odds with what seems to be the pervailing RPB/TFC supporters culutre. This year, I cannot believe what low expectations so many of the supporters have set for this team. FOR FUCK SAKES this is year SEVEN, yes we are rebuiling again but this is the MLS, you have to demand more. This club can win this year, but they will not if there is not pressure on them.

I have like what I have see on the field ( in relative terms of course) but they need to get results. Supporters should tell them, we need to see results, and not once again, well it takes time....

Madness.

[jabbronies]

Every year, I find myself more at odds with what seems to be the pervailing RPB/TFC supporters culutre. This year, I cannot believe what low expectations so many of the supporters have set for this team. FOR FUCK SAKES this is year SEVEN, yes we are rebuiling again but this is the MLS, you have to demand more. This club can win this year, but they will not if there is not pressure on them.

I have like what I have see on the field ( in relative terms of course) but they need to get results. Supporters should tell them, we need to see results, and not once again, well it takes time....

And every year, around this time of the season, we have the same thing happen. Someone comes on the board and starts to demand more and takes a knock at the culture the RPB presumably to stand for.

As Prizby mentioned earlier, there are supporters out there who are demanding more.
Have you tried to reach out to them and maybe get something tangible started? Instead of just complaining on this message board maybe starting a protest with those guys on their messageboard/facebook wall or even painting a banner yourself or with those others that tells people running the team to get off their ass or get fired?

Reality is: this team as it is is mediocre. KP has brought in some good talent in the short time he's been here (Earnshaw, Callif, Bendik) and is still trying to bring in more (2 Argentine players). There is an active search happen to make this team better. Players who are not working out are not getting those long drawn out chances to gel with the team (Cesar) as with previous coaches. We are not committing to guys unless they prove themselves (Bostock) and we are still getting results with this half assed team so Nelsen must be doing something right, no?

[TFC07]

I agree. It shouldn't be too hard to quickly rebuild this team and try to make it to the playoffs this year. Players coming from summer transfer plus Danny K coming back is going to be a huge boost for the club. Hopefully by then, we are striking distance of making to the playoffs.

[OgtheDim]

Realistic expectations are good. Given where we were, a point a game this year is realistic.

[jabbronies]

I agree. It shouldn't be too hard to quickly rebuild this team and try to make it to the playoffs this year. Players coming from summer transfer plus Danny K coming back is going to be a huge boost for the club. Hopefully by then, we are striking distance of making to the playoffs.

Exactly. Summer window should give us a better idea of where we stand for the playoffs.
At the end of the day it's the product on the field that will determine if we get in or not.

Our current product isn't there yet, it has the possibility to squeek in though depending on what happens between now and the end of that window.
With this team as is, we are 2 points out of a playoff spot. I don't think protesting and demanding anything substantial is in order just yet.

[ensco]

Given our cap/talent situation, we were worse than an expansion team on January 1.

Starting from where Payne was when he was hired, 90% of fans, given the choice between being an expansion team or keeping what we had, would have thrown all of our players away and started over.

Demanding "what works for the rest of MLS" is really kind of childish in a salary cap league, as the talent level and cap situation determines all .... what others could do in different circumstances has no relevance to the below-sea-level restart going on here.

[bigredone]

Some drag there feelings and expectations of other MLSE franchises to this one. They can be such a downer the two of them.

[brad]

Rebuilding is not necessarily quick in this league. It can be in some circumstances (ie NYRB), in others cases it is not. Some of the better squads in this league took a few years to build (RSL, SKC, San Jose). A big determinant is how tied your hands are by the players you have (ie too many big contracts), and how much you have to trade around (IE players that other people want). Just beacuse one team did it quick, doesn't mean another can.

Lets face it - TFC was a mess in this regards up until now (to an extent we still are overpaying some, but getting better). Way too many bloated contracts, over 1/3 of our cap tied up in 3 DPs that were injured or under performing for the bulk of the season, players that no other team in their right mind would want, a 'beaten before setting foot on the field" losing mentality, and a dreadful, dreadful reputation around the league as a terrible place to play. We dug a deep whole over the years, and need to dig out of it.

As much as I would like to see better now, I have to align where we were with the reality of things, and waving a magic wand and hoping for better isn't going to do much. The mess needs to be cleaned. The bloated contract situation needed sorted and under performing players needed to be moved. Both of which were done in the off season to a degree. I suspect that bringing in Payne was a massive benefit to the clubs relations around the league, people are now dealing with a well know and respected figure in the league as opposed to the known snakes we've had in the past.

We've done a decent job of bringing in players IMHO - the spine of the team looks to be better. It's pretty obvious that we need some more quality on the pitch to improve things, but hopefully that is coming.

In a perfect world, MLSE would have made the whole coach switch last year, given the new management plenty of additional time to dump contracts and add players much earlier than they did.

But the reality is:

• the changes were made late, and we got off to a late start
• The players we have still need time to gel. In many cases, they still need time to adapt to new team/league. You can't throw together a completely new group of players and expect them to be on the same page without actual playing experience.
• Timing of player availability is highly dependent on the European transfer window. We can't always just get the players we want/need in the off season (as an aside, this is a big question I have with this rebuild. If Nelsen has things lined up for some quality when the window opens, it will make a lot of sense why we are holding on players now).
• No manager hits 100% with their transfers, not even close. The best in the business bring in flops routinely, so to expect an MLS manager to knock it out of the park with all their signings is unrealistic. Basically, I expect a number of players to flop by the nature of the process.

So that's where I sit - I can beat my head against the wall expecting more - but knowing the reality is it will take time, or I can accept it for what it is.

[Shakes McQueen]

So should we organize a "we like what we see on the field, but RESULTS!" protest? As ensco said, we are starting from an absolutely shit position here.

It being year seven is a testament to this team's historical bungling, but is sort of irrelevant to assessing or setting expectations for a brand new management group, operating from a brand new set of circumstances.

Yeah, they need to do better - the continuing fuckery late in games is particularly heartwrenching, and has cost us a handful of points already. But considering it's April, and considering we generally approve of how the new guys are operating thus far, I don't know what action is expected here. If not a protest, then what? You just want more seething discontent in general?

Take a look in the last game thread - there are plenty of folks who weren't altogether pleased with how things unfolded. We need a stronger message for actual large-scale action, than "WE THINK YOU COULD BE BETTER!", or "WE KNOW YOU'VE ONLY BEEN IN CHARGE A LITTLE WHILE, BUT... C'MON!"

If you want to have a good, in-depth discussion about what you see as this team's issues, then make the thread. I'm sure plenty of people would love to have the conversation with you. As long as you aren't a dick about it - go nuts.

- Scott

[[NBF]]

Broken promise fatigue? <<<<<<<<<===========================AWESOME

I get the the lower expectations, but I agree they shouldn't be THAT low. The people that think a point/game is a sign of improvement leave me scratching my head, but at the same time I don't expect playoffs and the voyagers cup. We're capable of it, especially with the two signings we're supposed to be locking up, I just don't see any results as a guarantee after 4 managers in two and a half seasons (the rate of turnover has actually increased over time).

Good Job. You get a cookie. I agree 100%

[Abou Sky]

Note, 1pt/game is still 6pts more than we had last year after 6 games.

If you want a winner, go support ManU or Barcelona.

People support a lot worse teams their entire life. Imagine being a Ayr supporter in Scotland. You don't even get cup wins.

TFC is fielding a team I can be proud of and which I enjoy watching. That is enough for me.

All that said, some more wins would be lovely.

[ag futbol]

I'm not setting expectations high because it just perpetuates what we saw previously: short term decision making that appeared to help right away but long term screwed us. Management incompetence was probably the larger factor, but the short term focus never helped.

That's not to say my expectations are nothing, but as someone else already mentioned, we are starting from below sea level. The club has never had a proper front office structure and to make matters worse it is saddled with bad contracts. Lot to fix in a short period of time. MLS build times aren't what they used to be.

I expect improvement this year, to add useable players and to most likely make the playoffs in 2014 and in the years following. Short run "why isn't it happening now?" be damned. It's scar on the way football teams operate where people are used to looking two months ahead at a time without regard to what happens after that.

[FluSH]

You don't need The RPB for this. I am part of this group and I will always be the 12th man... The only crap I regret doing is protesting.

This can be year 20 and I will still be here.

Loyalty, Honour, and Respect

[Shakes McQueen]

I can appreciate a good protest, as long as there's a strong, coherent reason for it. None exists at the present moment.

- Scott

[FluSH]

I can appreciate a good protest, as long as there's a strong, coherent reason for it. None exists at the present moment.

- Scott

And don't get me wrong... I've protested with The RPB against my own personal beliefs. Once A decision was made I followed...

[denime]

You don't need The RPB for this. I am part of this group and I will always be the 12th man... The only crap I regret doing is protesting.

This can be year 20 and I will still be here.

Loyalty, Honour, and Respect

Agree!

[BuSaPuNk]

^ +2

[Cashcleaner]

I can't say I blame Trane because to be honest, I feel the same at times as well.

We're not a good team. In fact, we're the epitome of below-average. Sure, we're not the Sounders who are currently languishing in the basement with no wins to their name, but even facing mid-table teams has been a challenge for us. We can try to pin the blame for Sunday's draw on the ref all we want, but a very mediocre Philadelphia Union really outplayed that day, and if we can't compete with those kinds of teams then we're just gonna keep slipping in the standings.

That said, however, I think one point needs to be made. Toronto FC's current state is so much more indicative of the previous boss's incompetence and lack of vision than it is of the current staff's knoweldge, skill, and leadership. To put it bluntly, things were so badly screwed up during the previous six seasons that it will take us much longer than most clubs to "rebuild" themselves.

Understand this: I'm the first guy to point out that so many other clubs in this league have been able to rebuild within the span of a season and in previous seasons I would never accept that as a convenient excuse for our misfortunes, but my eyes have really been opened up recently about just how toxic the atmosphere at the club was for so many years.

Personally, I think Payne is a big step up from our previous pseudo-President and Nelsen has my support as well. I can see the changes they are trying to implement and while it's still incredibly frustrating to see us stumble and bumble along like we did on Sunday, I finally have a sense that we have a legitimate, honest to goodness, long-term strategy in place for this club and the beginnings of a distinct team culture.

[dutch]

am I missing somthing? Who or what do you see is wrong with the management or starting 11?
No manager could have done better in such short time imo.
The amount of garbage he removed was incredible. somthing like 11 players in the first 60 days on the job I believe.
Before the season started we just wanted a team who dosent quit, and I am so thankfull for what I've gotten so far.
Nelson is pure class, I wouldnt trade him for any other MLS coach.
The guys on the pitch need minutes togethor. We havent even had 10 games yet!
If your unrealistic expectations have not been met after 6 games, Im sorry.
Personally I see nowhere to go but up.

"The players that put on a Toronto shirt and walk out (over) that white line and represent the club are expected certain standards," he added. "And if they drop them or don't adhere to them, then there's no future at the club."
Ryan Nelson

[Brooker]

Hmm.... Why would a TFC fan have low expectations, whether justified or not.....

Let me go make a list and if I don't shoot myself in the face, I'll come back and post them.

[Oldtimer]

Every year, I find myself more at odds with what seems to be the pervailing RPB/TFC supporters culutre. This year, I cannot believe what low expectations so many of the supporters have set for this team. FOR FUCK SAKES this is year SEVEN, yes we are rebuiling again but this is the MLS, you have to demand more. This club can win this year, but they will not if there is not pressure on them.

I have like what I have see on the field ( in relative terms of course) but they need to get results. Supporters should tell them, we need to see results, and not once again, well it takes time....

Nothing would be worse for this team at this time than to have unrealistic expectations to "win now," leading to what when they fail: boycotts, angry outbursts, protests?

It's exactly that kind of thinking that had the Leafs in hockey give up solid draft picks to trade for aging players in an effort to "win now" leading to almost a decade of futility. That's what we want for TFC?

A one-year turnaround is totally unrealistic for a team like TFC that was left with no cap space, a roster that was turned into total crap by some shorts-wearing maniac, and a record that placed it at the very bottom of MLS and at the bottom of the world for part of the season. And what, you want TFC to totally turn around and win the MLS Cup? With a rookie coach, a brand new scouting network (remember TFC never had a scouting network before), and a disfunctional front office that still needs some house-cleaning (Earl Cochrane), as well as not yet having been able to sign any new DPs to replace Frings and JDG? That's really what you expect?

What are you going to do, stand outside the stadium with a sign denouncing the front office if they don't make the playoffs in the first year of the new management?

I think that Payne has done a fantastic job as GM, clearing out as much crap as he could in a couple of months, setting up a scouting network from scratch, and hiring a gem of a coach who seems to be very highly respected and learning quickly. Nelsen has over-achieved my expectations in how he's gotten really poor players to play a decent game. But let's get real: Payne's/Nelsen's rebuilt TFC won't be playing until 2014.

Just enjoy this season for what it is: the occasional brilliant play, a few wins, being competitive for some games, but otherwise a total write-off. It's certainly better than last year!

Given our cap/talent situation, we were worse than an expansion team on January 1.

Starting from where Payne was when he was hired, 90% of fans, given the choice between being an expansion team or keeping what we had, would have thrown all of our players away and started over.

Demanding "what works for the rest of MLS" is really kind of childish in a salary cap league, as the talent level and cap situation determines all .... what others could do in different circumstances has no relevance to the below-sea-level restart going on here.

I wish it wasn't true, but ensco you've realistically painted where we were at January 1st.

Imagine, if Garber/MLS hadn't had stepped in, we would be in even worse shape with Cochrane as GM, Mr. Shorts as coach screaming on the sidelines, and Anselmi still trying to (incompetently) run things. Now we're seeing positive change and some hope for the future. Let's not get ahead of ourselves and demand instant success.

[tfcleeds]

You can argue that we should be in a better position than we are currently, and sure, we've had a couple of rather unfortunate results recently, losing full points late on. But all I know is we're six points better at this stage than we were last season, and I see tangible signs of progress. I'm not about to panic yet. We were one of the worst sides in football history, let alone, MLS history last season, so getting over that and establishing a squad that can compete for honours in the upcoming seasons are high enough expectations as far as I'm concerned. No one would have expected us to win the league in Year 1. This is Year 1 redux, essentially wiping the slate clean and starting over again.