Why such low expectations? Why not ask for more?

[TFC_Allez]

am I missing somthing? Who or what do you see is wrong with the management or starting 11?
No manager could have done better in such short time imo.
The amount of garbage he removed was incredible. somthing like 11 players in the first 60 days on the job I believe.
Before the season started we just wanted a team who dosent quit, and I am so thankfull for what I've gotten so far.
Nelson is pure class, I wouldnt trade him for any other MLS coach.
The guys on the pitch need minutes togethor. We havent even had 10 games yet!
If your unrealistic expectations have not been met after 6 games, Im sorry.
Personally I see nowhere to go but up.

"The players that put on a Toronto shirt and walk out (over) that white line and represent the club are expected certain standards," he added. "And if they drop them or don't adhere to them, then there's no future at the club."
Ryan Nelson

Bravo! Well said, and I completely agree.

There's no need to get whipped into a lather about being a point a game team at this point in the season. Frankly, if that's how the season turns out, I personally think it'll be a successful year compared to initial predictions. Does this mean I'm settling? Not a chance. Does this mean I'm apathetic? Nope. Does this mean I have low expectations? Nope. It means I'm reasonable and realistic. The fact that we have points shows an improvement in all areas. If it were 2012 all over again (Thank god it isn't!), we'd be going another 4 games without ANY points. Put things in perspective.

There's no need for another protest, if that's even what was initially alluded to. This team is on the right track for once. With some helpful Argentines (hopefully), and going into the summer transfer window with an open DP slot and cash...I think we'll be just fine.

[glaze]

Why would we take out 6 years of frustration on this team?
MLSE almost gave us the tickets for free this year, they brought in a new front office and made many changes to the lineup. And so far there have been results.
We could sneak into the playoffs this year and if not that seems like a reasonable goal for '14.
We don't have to pretend the last 6 years didn't happen, but it's a lot more fun to walk into BMO with some optimism. I think this current team has given us that

[JuliquE]

Hmm.... Why would a TFC fan have low expectations, whether justified or not.....

Let me go make a list and if I don't shoot myself in the face, I'll come back and post them.

hahhaaha

[T-boy]

Maybe its from who I support back in England, but my expectations are always fairly low. I've supported Oxford all my life, and always will. I supported them from the first division through to relegation from the football league. But I will support them forever and ever! From my perspective, football is based on tiny highs and lots of lows, so what I'm personally experiencing with TFC is nothing new for me. I'll wait another ten years to get in the play offs, it doesn't make any difference to me! Of course I WANT TFC to be successful, but constant success has never been my experience in football supporting.

So does that mean I need to raise my expectations? I would say no, but then again, I don't have an experience of success anyways.

[trane]

Broken promise fatigue?

I get the the lower expectations, but I agree they shouldn't be THAT low. The people that think a point/game is a sign of improvement leave me scratching my head, but at the same time I don't expect playoffs and the voyagers cup. We're capable of it, especially with the two signings we're supposed to be locking up, I just don't see any results as a guarantee after 4 managers in two and a half seasons (the rate of turnover has actually increased over time).

This is my point, and no I am not calling for a protest, and I pretty happy with new management and as I said I think that it has looked ok, but there have been many points left on the filed, and I hope that will soon stop. my problem is rely the expectation of supporters, not rely with the new management or club, but I am reading these board, and particularly the thread about who many points this year, and I read to many excuses already given to the club as to why it should not it cannot be expected to succeed this year, and I sorry but this is a culture of underachievement.

I am just disappointed by it. Again I see nothing on the filed that is so negative that we need to protest at this point, nor do I feel there is a need for any firings or changes, but christ, should we not hope that the club is truly competitive this year, that at least at BMO we are close to being a fortress, that in this league that so many make into the playoffs we are not out of the race by June?

[Yohan]

And the 6 games TFC has played so far has to be hardest schedule for an MLS team early season. 5 out of 6 are likely going to make the playoffs and Philly is borderline. Doesn't get any easier against MLS Cup finalists Houston and the one after is New York and we all know how much Henry loves to score on TFC.

[Yohan]

This is my point, and no I am not calling for a protest, and I pretty happy with new management and as I said I think that it has looked ok, but there have been many points left on the filed, and I hope that will soon stop. my problem is rely the expectation of supporters, not rely with the new management or club, but I am reading these board, and particularly the thread about who many points this year, and I read to many excuses already given to the club as to why it should not it cannot be expected to succeed this year, and I sorry but this is a culture of underachievement.

I am just disappointed by it. Again I see nothing on the filed that is so negative that we need to protest at this point, nor do I feel there is a need for any firings or changes, but christ, should we not hope that the club is truly competitive this year, that at least at BMO we are close to being a fortress, that in this league that so many make into the playoffs we are not out of the race by June?

Well, TFC hasn't lost at home yet so far this season. Does that count?

But I hear you. I don't expect TFC to make the playoffs, however, part of my expectation is that TFC is competitive every game and with that expectation, TFC should be close to playoffs. At least, not out of it by June.

[trane]

^ I do not disagree, and I understand why people assumed that I was calling for protests and changes and firings, but that was not the point, it was rely about our expectations.

I believe in the new management, and I believe in the new manager, I believe in the style/system, and it is too early to be really critical, but by June I hope we are a better a more competitive team and that this is a season of real growth and not stagnation. I will not be disappointed if we do not make the playoffs, but I will be disappointed if come mid summer we are still the team we are today, in terms of results and mistakes. BUT I am not going to pledge blind loyalty to this management group just yet.

[ Yes not losing at home does count allot]

[Phil]

Well, TFC hasn't lost at home yet so far this season. Does that count?

But I hear you. I don't expect TFC to make the playoffs, however, part of my expectation is that TFC is competitive every game and with that expectation, TFC should be close to playoffs. At least, not out of it by June.

I think the last two games we stole points. A good sign to a degree. The late surrender shows a mental issue vs the physical issues in the past. In some ways that may be tougher to overcome but its been a pretty stacked start of the season for us as you pointed out.

[brad]

^ I do not disagree, and I understand why people assumed that I was calling for protests and changes and firings, but that was not the point, it was rely about our expectations.

I believe in the new management, and I believe in the new manager, I believe in the style/system, and it is too early to be really critical, but by June I hope we are a better a more competitive team and that this is a season of real growth and not stagnation. I will not be disappointed if we do not make the playoffs, but I will be disappointed if come mid summer we are still the team we are today, in terms of results and mistakes. BUT I am not going to pledge blind loyalty to this management group just yet.

[ Yes not losing at home does count allot]

Bolded bit is what I feel 100% as well.

I am not giving faith to MLSE/TFC at all anymore. I've done that for 6 years - and as the old saying goes - "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me". I'm not sure what I would say about fool me six times though...But I'm also not writing them off. I'm waiting to see what they deliver.

Anyway, I'm cautiously optimistic, but the mean time I am taking a wait and see approach. I see positives for sure, but it's too early to tell. But even so - I reserve any judgement until I see actual results.

My only expectation this year from August until the end of season, we should be a competitive team. I don't expect us to be worldbeaters, but I expect a decent quality of MLS football, and strong signs that we are getting closer to being competitive. Ideally, we should be picking up points from then until the end of the season that would see us in a playoff position (comfortably) if extrapolated over the season.

Why August 1st? That give over a month in the summer window to strengthen the team and allow those new signings some time to adapt. It also gives the current core of players enough time to develop some rudimentary chemistry.

I am also very curios to see how Nelsen/Payne maneuver in the summer window. Strong moves early in the window will imply to me that they had a plan going in and where waiting on the summer window to execute.

[Phil]

The biggest issue I have is that they ditched Winter during the process that they oversold to everyone in that stadium.

Right there it makes me hesitant to put too much behind this current group without seeing some kind of result. So far, its not too bad all things considered. Brad has a very good point about the summer window and that is probably the best indicator we will have about real direction.

[Oldtimer]

This is my point, and no I am not calling for a protest, and I pretty happy with new management and as I said I think that it has looked ok, but there have been many points left on the filed, and I hope that will soon stop. my problem is rely the expectation of supporters, not rely with the new management or club, but I am reading these board, and particularly the thread about who many points this year, and I read to many excuses already given to the club as to why it should not it cannot be expected to succeed this year, and I sorry but this is a culture of underachievement.

I am just disappointed by it. Again I see nothing on the filed that is so negative that we need to protest at this point, nor do I feel there is a need for any firings or changes, but christ, should we not hope that the club is truly competitive this year, that at least at BMO we are close to being a fortress, that in this league that so many make into the playoffs we are not out of the race by June?

It's not management that are giving these as excuses, it's us being realistic. A "culture of failure" could be used to describe ML$E, at least under the Teachers' Pension Plan, but it's not our job to turn things around. It's their job! It's our job to support.

I don't think any of us are going to drink the Koolaid that a total turnaround is possible right away, and and if anyone at ML$E promised something like that, one would be right to be extremely skeptical. In fact I'll come right out and say it's not possible given where the team started from.

[brad]

The biggest issue I have is that they ditched Winter during the process that they oversold to everyone in that stadium.

Right there it makes me hesitant to put too much behind this current group without seeing some kind of result. So far, its not too bad all things considered. Brad has a very good point about the summer window and that is probably the best indicator we will have about real direction.

This is a key thing for me as well (well - that on top of the previous seasons issues). I don't have an issue with Winter getting let go - that was warranted. What I have an issue with is that they did not replace him with someone to continue in the philosophy that was laid out (DeKlerk could have been interim if we didn't have a replacement lined up). We got 70's British Football from Mariner instead. To me - the takeaway was that I was sold a marketing message, not an actual football ideology as promised. I'm not bitter towards them, I am now taking an approach to believing nothing promised, only what I see.

[dutch]

"The biggest issue I have is that they ditched Winter during the process that they oversold to everyone in that stadium."
Seriously? I remember halfway through the season. His losses were huge, his iron will not to change things even bigger.
It had to happen.

[jabbronies]

am I missing somthing? Who or what do you see is wrong with the management or starting 11?
No manager could have done better in such short time imo.
The amount of garbage he removed was incredible. somthing like 11 players in the first 60 days on the job I believe.
Before the season started we just wanted a team who dosent quit, and I am so thankfull for what I've gotten so far.
Nelson is pure class, I wouldnt trade him for any other MLS coach.
The guys on the pitch need minutes togethor. We havent even had 10 games yet!
If your unrealistic expectations have not been met after 6 games, Im sorry.
Personally I see nowhere to go but up.

"The players that put on a Toronto shirt and walk out (over) that white line and represent the club are expected certain standards," he added. "And if they drop them or don't adhere to them, then there's no future at the club."
Ryan Nelson

Dutch - Sometime I feel like the conversations had on this board are more fantaic than actual support. Meaning topics and comments are made with next to no judgement or reason.

I do agree with you - The fact that we have gotten to a place where Andrew Weideman isn't our most prolific striker and Terry Dunfield isn't the lynchpin of our starting lineup - should say a lot about the amount of change this team has had in such a short amount of time.

Yes - we do have a team mainly made of average MLS players. But it's a foundation of players that can actually play football that we can now build on. we now need to bring in those players who are a step above the rest to push us into contention. If Danny K can come back in the form he was before he left and Mr Jumping Bean, Robert Earnshaw, can continue in his current form - We will have the most prolific striking duo in the league.

If these Argentines ever come in and actually do work out - our midfield could get a lot more dangerous. Add a consistent back line lead by O'Dea and Callif (Which could very well happen the more these guys play together) - again, we are pretty decent MLS side. Middle of the pack for sure IMO.

But again - too many if's right now to really say anything for sure. But we are not that dire just yet.

[Phil]

"The biggest issue I have is that they ditched Winter during the process that they oversold to everyone in that stadium."
Seriously? I remember halfway through the season. His losses were huge, his iron will not to change things even bigger.
It had to happen.

Well, Brad nailed it. I get the guy needed to be shown the door but they promised this whole package that had a specific system. Told us it would be a labour of love, friggen pounded it at us for over a year. Then bam, route 1 football and a shambles of a football system. When I refer to that removal its actually about the abandonment of the principal.

The new regime is putting their own direction on it and I support it but I am very much in a wait and see mode given the past now. Its my bad for not expanding on the idea.

[jabbronies]

"The biggest issue I have is that they ditched Winter during the process that they oversold to everyone in that stadium."
Seriously? I remember halfway through the season. His losses were huge, his iron will not to change things even bigger.
It had to happen.

I don't disagree with that....but I don't agree it should've been done when it was.
Season was already lost at that point. They should've let him try and salvage what he could from the league and get us in a good place in CCL (which IMO was his strong suit) At the same time looking for someone to replace him so the transition wouldn't have been so devastating. Can him at the end of the season - at least we would've had some structure to work with going into this year.

Thank God Mariner didn't get rid of Silva...the dumb ass actually came out and said he wouldn't have picked him in the draft and couldn't see what the hype was around him...

[Auzzy]

"The biggest issue I have is that they ditched Winter during the process that they oversold to everyone in that stadium."
Seriously? I remember halfway through the season. His losses were huge, his iron will not to change things even bigger.
It had to happen.

Well, Brad nailed it. I get the guy needed to be shown the door but they promised this whole package that had a specific system. Told us it would be a labour of love, friggen pounded it at us for over a year. Then bam, route 1 football and a shambles of a football system. When I refer to that removal its actually about the abandonment of the principal.

The new regime is putting their own direction on it and I support it but I am very much in a wait and see mode given the past now. Its my bad for not expanding on the idea.

BAM, Brad & Phil said it. Plus we found out for certain later, the club never actually committed to the new "system" in the first place, even while they were marketing it to us actively. The hired a built-in escape hatch in terms of Mariner (and kept Cochrane) at the same time as Winter. Confirmed by both Mariner & Winter, those two were opposed to much of what Winter did, and they brought in some crap players (in addition to whatever Winter screwed up himself). Then they triggered the escape hatch, unfortunately it only took us from the frying pan to the fire.

Plus the fact that they dumped Winter when they knew there was going to be an MLSE ownership change shortly, so likely more changes to come a few months down the road.

[Phil]

I think its appropriate to mention this here. Even though many of us are on the 'wait and see' side of things, that doesn't mean I wont be at every game screaming myself hoarse and supporting this team for the full 90 in the stands.

[prizby]

I think its appropriate to mention this here. Even though many of us are on the 'wait and see' side of things, that doesn't mean I wont be at every game screaming myself hoarse and supporting this team for the full 90 in the stands.

this; wish everyone else had this mentality

[trane]

Well, Brad nailed it. I get the guy needed to be shown the door but they promised this whole package that had a specific system. Told us it would be a labour of love, friggen pounded it at us for over a year. Then bam, route 1 football and a shambles of a football system. When I refer to that removal its actually about the abandonment of the principal.

The new regime is putting their own direction on it and I support it but I am very much in a wait and see mode given the past now. Its my bad for not expanding on the idea.

I agree with you on Winter. I was one of those that called for his firing, when it seemed clear to me that he just could not get wins, and that we were losing another year. BUT I also found the complete abandonment of the philosophy and the hiring of the man that should also have been held responsible troubling. AND yet I tried to give Mariner a chance, and what happened happened.

My stance now is reflected in your words "the new regime is putting their own direction on it and I support it but I am very much in a wait and see mode". I just believe that is the responsible stance.

I have to say if there is one thing that I would like to see is that opposing teams are afraid of coming to BMO, and we do play a large part in that.

[Abou Sky]

If these Argentines ever come in and actually do work out - our midfield could get a lot more dangerous. Add a consistent back line lead by O'Dea and Callif (Which could very well happen the more these guys play together) - again, we are pretty decent MLS side. Middle of the pack for sure IMO.

And if they don't, which is very likely. I will still support a team that looks like the one that I have seen play since game 1 vs. ShiteCraps

TRY and I will support you, FIGHT and I will support you, NEVER EVER GIVE UP and I will support you (maybe this is the root of my love of Dunfield)

What I want SOOOO badly, is to end the revolving door of mercenaries and have guys put that shirt on who LOVE that they are wearing the red. I want guys like Bostock, Agboussemonde and all the other young boys to say "I am here at 21 and I want to be here at 35, I want MY jersey up on that wall of honour"

[ag futbol]

Regarding Aron Winter: I'm disappointed about how they organized (use that term loosely) the staff around him, disappointed with who they replaced him with, abandoning the 'plan', but in terms of firing him: that was 100% on the money. He had a whole year to gather strength, the players brought in were bad and he put dependency on old, injury prone DPs. We lost a large string of games and he was done. Makes perfect sense to me. If the team was truely progressing and improving that wouldn't have happened, so it shot the credibility of his ability as a manager.

As for the current lot: one year clean up. Year two performance. Think that's a fair standard to hold to

[pawlukj]

i agree with the original poster (trane) and ive advocated in the past a "revival" so to speak of when this place was a fortress.. not knocking our supporters but when we dont expect to win that shows in the stands and the players feed off that ultimately a self fuflfilling prophecy happens.. we need ot be loud and go for the gusto

[Shakes McQueen]

^ I do not disagree, and I understand why people assumed that I was calling for protests and changes and firings, but that was not the point, it was rely about our expectations.

I believe in the new management, and I believe in the new manager, I believe in the style/system, and it is too early to be really critical, but by June I hope we are a better a more competitive team and that this is a season of real growth and not stagnation. I will not be disappointed if we do not make the playoffs, but I will be disappointed if come mid summer we are still the team we are today, in terms of results and mistakes. BUT I am not going to pledge blind loyalty to this management group just yet.

[ Yes not losing at home does count allot]

I don't really think anyone has "pledged loyalty" to the new management team. Some people might be enthusiastic or optimistic at the moment, or some people might want to make placards and banners that say nice things about them (for now), but that's just having some "belief" in the new regime, as you said you have.

If this team sucks a few months from now, I expect the milk to turn sour pretty fast. People loved Preki at first, too.

- Scott