Pre/In/Post - Game 3: TFC @ Montreal, Sat 16 Mar 4pm

[T-boy]

Someone has to tell why winning now is a terrible thing? The way I look at it, when your ageing 34 year dies, you get another player with a little left in the tank. Kovermans last year, Earnshaw this year, next year someone else. Who cares? I'd rather have a Nesta in the back than what we have. I'd rather basically anyone with Seria A experience than Dunfeild.

I understand what you're trying to say. But you have to also be realistic. EVERY TEAM in the MLS has a "Dunfield" as a starter. The salary cap means that no MLS team an have a squad full of stars - its just not possible with the limitations of the league. Every team also has a share of "over the hill" aging players from Lee at Vancouver, to Earnshaw at TFC, to Nesta at Montreal, Cahill NY, the list goes on and on. It's just the way of the league!

The league set up also doesn't really allow for a one year change around in form. You simply can't go out and "buy" success like you can in other world leagues. Look at TFC - if they could just "buy out" all their injured players, then it would have been simple. But the rules just don't allow that. It's far more realistic to have a 1 or 2 or even 3 years rebuild.

I'm hopefully that Payne and Nelson can find "some" success this season, but even within one year would be a rapid speed given the limitations of the MLS and salary cap.

[tfcleeds]

I hear "You'll Never Walk Alone" is pretty new and hip. We should sing that.

Also "All Round the Fields of Anfield Road" - not like there are any references to former players from the 70s no less) in that song...

[Huyton]

I'd be interested in the minutes played by the "1st 11" on teams in MLS vs other leagues. I wonder this because I suspect that there's a greater temptation to play your best players because you can't afford to have 2 players per position that are also among the elite in your league.

I also think that the MLS is a very gruelling league to play in. There's the heat, the artificial turf, the travel and the better players get lumps kicked out of them. If you add in a large number of older players who can't shake off the niggling injuries, or naturally try things that don't work on turf that would on grass, then you have a recipe for early season success.

Which I think is the Montreal model, and TFC's of yesteryear.

Perhaps if you have a shorter pre-season, you'll last longer into the actual season. You may then have some gas left in the tank for the playoffs. In other words, you want your team to peak about the end of the regular season, rather than earlier. This is the RSL model, and the one that Payne looks to be trying to implement here.

Short term pain, Long Term Payne.

[ag futbol]

I’d be careful with the narrative that Montreal are simply old and will fall apart. I see more than a few players under the age of 30 on that team who would start on our roster, no questions asked. Other than that, I don’t see the problem with going for it and then replacing the players year-after-year that fall apart. MLS being what it is it’s hard to hold onto your best players anyways.

They could end up like we did last year, with multiple top players ending up on the physio table. But I’d encourage people to look at that team top to bottom. It’s not that bad and it contains multiple guys who can slot in at multiple positions which gives them incredible amounts of durability. I would say Bernier is the one guy who they'd have a really hard time replacing, but that's just the nature of MLS or any league for that matter. It's not like LA can replace Keane if he goes down or NY can replace Henry.

[Yohan]

I’d be careful with the narrative that Montreal are simply old and will fall apart. I see more than a few players under the age of 30 on that team who would start on our roster, no questions asked. Other than that, I don’t see the problem with going for it and then replacing the players year-after-year that fall apart. MLS being what it is it’s hard to hold onto your best players anyways.

They could end up like we did last year, with multiple top players ending up on the physio table. But I’d encourage people to look at that team top to bottom. It’s not that bad and it contains multiple guys who can slot in at multiple positions which gives them incredible amounts of durability. I would say Bernier is the one guy who they'd have a really hard time replacing, but that's just the nature of MLS or any league for that matter. It's not like LA can replace Keane if he goes down or NY can replace Henry.

Only players under 20 that I'd take from Montreal are Felipe Martins and Andrew Wenger

[jazzy]

2 different guys... the guy wearing the Canadian flag was hammered and reasonably annoying at times but he wasn't the one who threw the beer.

The guy that threw the beer was in the 1st row of the upper section of the 400's after which one of the guys i was with reminded him to calm down and that we are all TFC fans in this section.

sweet.....don't know if you heard me but my wife said when I screamed at him the whole section including security went silent...apparently I lost it for one minor moment ...glad everyone thought it was dumb....I mean we are all on the same side......I promise I actually wouldn't have gone through with my threat ( I think)....

[Cashcleaner]

I think TFC could use a few Italians in the middle of the park. MLSE's obsession with English football is just as lame.

We may look at it as an obsession at times, but I look at it as creating a distinct personality for the club. Joey Saputo is Italian and he likes Italian soccer. Therefore, it came as no surprise that he's brought in no less than four Italian players - one of which is a DP. It's far too early to tell if this is a plan that will work, but Montreal is a team with a very distinct style and identity. Personally, I think one of the problems that TFC always had is that we never really had that sort of distinct identity. We were a club constantly acquiring and supplementing talent with no real eye to generating a long-term culture, and that could very well have been a contributing factor to our seven season playoff drought.

Someone has to tell why winning now is a terrible thing? The way I look at it, when your ageing 34 year dies, you get another player with a little left in the tank. Kovermans last year, Earnshaw this year, next year someone else. Who cares? I'd rather have a Nesta in the back than what we have. I'd rather basically anyone with Seria A experience than Dunfeild.

Seeing what I'm saying. The culture of losing at TFC is being broken, but saying-- we're building for 2017 is defeatist. We should want to make the play-offs this year, we're maybe 4 players away. Bring them in. I don't care if they're 39.

And BTW-- when we look at Montreal, I think we're kinda looking at ourselves. You are defined by your opposition. It's why Ajax isn't considered a top team. Who do they play against during the year? And why is Man U what it is? They have Liverpool and the other top English clubs to thank. So save the total distain for Red Bull who have crap fans or Chivas who have no fans.

Just saying.

Oh, I agree. I know the consensus seems to be that this season is a write-off due primarily to the turn-over in coaches and players from last season, but I don't really buy that line of thinking - especially in this league. To be honest, I think the playoffs are attainable for us, and I have a good feeling that Payne is the man who will get us there.

It's risky because the Impact have lots of money tied up in a couple of good but older players that they are very dependent on. If a couple of them go down partway through the season, then you get no cap relief, so their salary is tied up for the rest of the season. Kind of like TFC last year. And if they're on multi-year deals, then you can only buy out one player per season, if some of those players are injured or not performing. Although every player over 30 is different, there may also be an issue of fatigue, especially as the season drags on, lots of travel, hot summer games, etc. Saturday we saw Nesta have to be subbed out early, and the whole team frankly looked a bit beat towards the end of the game, which gave TFC a chance. (Yes Montreal still had some gas for a few dangerous counter-attacks.)

I don't know how good the Impact's backup players are. Maybe they're fine and can do well if some of the older stars get injured. We shall see.

TFC still has some older players, but looking at the roster, I don't think there's as much money tied up in those players, nor is the team as dependent on them. Plus TFC still has cap space & spare allocation $ (I think Montreal is pretty well maxed out), plus flexibility due to a few players being on loans or short-term contracts until the summer. (Yes, I know there's a different type of risk with those short-term deals.)

For sure, TFC does not yet have the overall quality of players that Montreal has, but it seems they still have some room and flexibility to improve. Let's see how the results compare over a couple of years.

BTW, I've wondered about Montreal's cap space since last season anyway. Who knows how they pulled all that off?

I think Montreal has some pretty good depth, but they undoubtedly have a lot of their eggs in one basket with the older core of veteran players. Like you said, their older players are shouldering more than ours, and if health problems or morale issues crop up, the Impact may find themselves with very limited roster options.

Auzzy nailed it.

I'm not very interested in how Monteal have done over three games. This isn't a cup - it's a league and you don't win it with a few good players, you win it with a squad.

We will see over the season if their model works or not. Didn't try have a strong start last year as well and then fall apart?

I never get why some people look at Montreal with envy. Yes we suck - and I perfectly understand being envious of better teams - but why not envy some of the better MLS teams like LA or Seattle.

Also Auzzy - rumors abound about a lot of back room deals between Saputo and folks back in Italy in regards to player salaries and cap space. No idea if its true, but I find it a bit strange a guy like Nesta moved here for peanuts.

I wouldn't say I envy the Impact, but I don't see anything wrong with utilizing Montreal as a yardstick for ourselves. They are a Canadian team like us, which means we share the same roster restrictions. We're also in the same conference, so we're competing against the same opponents for playoff spots. The fact is that we share many similar circumstances - moreso than with LA or Seattle, so easy comparisons should come as no surprise.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Oh. I didn't realize their Serie A obsession was so deep rooted. I just assumed it was a joey saputo thing

I think TFC could use a few Italians in the middle of the park. MLSE's obsession with English football is just as lame.

We've had at least a player from Serie A. I don't think it's that important where good talent comes from as long as it's good and the right price to build an even squad. That's been our obstacle from the start. I don't call it obsession for either team in these examples. It makes sense to look where you have the most contacts. It doesn't excuse poor choices and overpaying for the convenience of dealing with who you know though.

[brad]

Family has a lot to do with Nesta moving to NA. If it was just Nesta moving for small salary, I'd be surprised, but Arne Friedlich for Chicago did the same thing too.

As for Mtl, 7 out of 11 starters were over 30. If Mtl keeps wanting to think short term success only, I'm fine with that

Nothing wrong with building for short term success IMHO. If team wants to make a run for it in a given year, power to them. But short term success for me is a success in a year - not over a few games. MLS is a tough league with a lot of wear and tear on the body, and games on terrible turf. Building a team with too many aging players is a risk, and has been shown to be one time and time again. You had better hope that the older players hold up over the season, and that you have done an excellent job on finding quality, cheap depth players. LA did this a couple of years ago. They were without their big name players for the start of the season, and their depth guys did a decent, yet unspectacular job of grinding out results until the big players returned.

Didn't know about the Nesta/family connection btw.

[JonO]

^ This. The league is changing rapidly, so every year is different, but often the beginning of the year is not a good indicator of who will finish the year well. And in this league, finishing strong is what counts. Not saying Montreal won't be that team, but they have a lot of eggs in one basket. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Time will tell. Premier league table after first three weeks read: Chelsea, Swansea, West Brom, Man City.

[brad]

We've had at least a player from Serie A. I don't think it's that important where good talent comes from as long as it's good and the right price to build an even squad. That's been our obstacle from the start. I don't call it obsession for either team in these examples. It makes sense to look where you have the most contacts. It doesn't excuse poor choices and overpaying for the convenience of dealing with who you know though.

I was going to point out in my original reply to this that the reigning league champs, that happen to have one it back to back did so with an Englishman in the center of the park, but decided not to :-)

But yes, quality matters, not where that person is from.

[ryan]

^ This. The league is changing rapidly, so every year is different, but often the beginning of the year is not a good indicator of who will finish the year well. And in this league, finishing strong is what counts. Not saying Montreal won't be that team, but they have a lot of eggs in one basket. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Time will tell. Premier league table after first three weeks read: Chelsea, Swansea, West Brom, Man City.

Remember when KC was dead last after 7-8 matches?

Yeah they had the late start on home games, but a top fucking side surely is better than that...and they were.

[v00d00daddy]

Sorry but I disagree that we've never had a style or culture at TFC.

IMO...this club was designed to cater and appeal to followers of the UK game.

From style of play, player selection, coach selection, trainers, club colours, stadium features. All of it.

At one time even our equipment manager was from the UK. Lol

Montreal has gone out and done the same thing with another footballing ideology and culture and they get shit on for doing so...despite actually finding some success in the early days of their franchise.

Now...I hate them as much as the next guy but we've been much more guilty of what we accuse them of except for one minor detail.

TFC has never made it work.

Even when we tried to shift towards a more continental game it failed and it was, in large part, thanks to the appointment of Mariner and, once again, the UK mentality won out. We gave up on an idea and what's worse, replaced it with an even worse one.

I'm tired of it.

I love the UK from every standpoint other than football.

I believe the fascination and influence of the UK footballing culture has hampered Canadian soccer forever and it's now done the same at TFC.

So yes...it doesn't matter where the players come from as long as they're good.

But when it comes to a footballing mentality....it matters. And it's got to change here.

[Yohan]

Sorry but I disagree that we've never had a style or culture at TFC.

IMO...this club was designed to cater and appeal to followers of the UK game.

From style of play, player selection, coach selection, trainers, club colours, stadium features. All of it.

At one time even our equipment manager was from the UK. Lol

Montreal has gone out and done the same thing with another footballing ideology and culture and they get shit on for doing so...despite actually finding some success in the early days of their franchise.

Now...I hate them as much as the next guy but we've been much more guilty of what we accuse them of except for one minor detail.

TFC has never made it work.

Even when we tried to shift towards a more continental game it failed and it was, in large part, thanks to the appointment of Mariner and, once again, the UK mentality won out. We gave up on an idea and what's worse, replaced it with an even worse one.

I'm tired of it.

I love the UK from every standpoint other than football.

I believe the fascination and influence of the UK footballing culture has hampered Canadian soccer forever and it's now done the same at TFC.

So yes...it doesn't matter where the players come from as long as they're good.

But when it comes to a footballing mentality....it matters. And it's got to change here.

Dominic Kinnear and Frank Yallop says you're wrong

I'm not saying British football is the key to success in MLS; really, any 'style' can work in MLS. However, any tactics must adapt to the quirks of MLS. 'Latin' or 'European' or 'British' or whatever has no advantage over other styles

[brad]

I don't think we ever really adopted an English mentality. I would certainly agree that the FO marketed things in that regard, but there was never anything that made it down to the pitch in a sustained way. Yes, we selected some coaches based from there, and that certainly had knock back effects on player selection, but when I look at this list - I don't see the UK dominating it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toronto_FC_players

I don't think we have had any identity - we've been a mish-mash since day one (although you could argue right or wrong, Winter tried to instill one).

And I wouldn't say that incompetent coaches playing a long dead style of English football constitutes identity.

[v00d00daddy]

Dominic Kinnear and Frank Yallop says you're wrong

I'm not saying British football is the key to success in MLS; really, any 'style' can work in MLS. However, any tactics must adapt to the quirks of MLS. 'Latin' or 'European' or 'British' or whatever has no advantage over other styles

You're right.

But as far as TFC and Canadian football in general are concerned, the predominant mentality and footballing culture has come almost exclusively from one part of the world.

That's what I was talking about needing to change.

[FreekAce]

At one time even our equipment manager was from the UK. Lol

haha, Malcolm Phillips is still here!!

[v00d00daddy]

I don't think we ever really adopted an English mentality. I would certainly agree that the FO marketed things in that regard, but there was never anything that made it down to the pitch in a sustained way. Yes, we selected some coaches based from there, and that certainly had knock back effects on player selection, but when I look at this list - I don't see the UK dominating it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toronto_FC_players

I don't think we have had any identity - we've been a mish-mash since day one (although you could argue right or wrong, Winter tried to instill one).

And I wouldn't say that incompetent coaches playing a long dead style of English football constitutes identity.

It's not about nationality for me at all. It's about footballing mentality.

Where guys learned the game.

What game guys followed growing up.

Who coached them.

Most Canadian players grew up with the same mentality.

And it's because we're inundated with one footballing mentality in this country.

And now the impact have bucked the trend and found success and we shit on when, in reality, we should be using it as a bit of a wake up call that there are other ways to see this game.

Other qualities to admire.

Here's another example of how TFC support mirrors a certain mentality.

Look at the wall of honour and the yearly RPB players of the year.

Full of players who learned the UK game and follow it.

That's not a coincidence.

It's just what the majority of football fans in this country grew up on and how they learned the game.

[v00d00daddy]

haha, Malcolm Phillips is still here!!

Lol. Awesome!!!

[Yohan]

Here's another example of how TFC support mirrors a certain mentality.

Look at the wall of honour and the yearly RPB players of the year.

Full of players who learned the UK game and follow it.

That's not a coincidence.

It's just what the majority of football fans in this country grew up on and how they learned the game.

weak argument. The wall of honour has 2 players. Hardly a good statistical example.

RPB players of the year has 3 British and 3 non British players. And these players happened to be best players for the team (well, a strong case can be made) in that particular season.

[brad]

It's not about nationality for me at all. It's about footballing mentality.

Where guys learned the game.

What game guys followed growing up.

Who coached them.

Most Canadian players grew up with the same mentality.

And it's because we're inundated with one footballing mentality in this country.

And now the impact have bucked the trend and found success and we shit on when, in reality, we should be using it as a bit of a wake up call that there are other ways to see this game.

Other qualities to admire.

Here's another example of how TFC support mirrors a certain mentality.

Look at the wall of honour and the yearly RPB players of the year.

Full of players who learned the UK game and follow it.

That's not a coincidence.

It's just what the majority of football fans in this country grew up on and how they learned the game.

Fair points - except the bit about Montreal's success. Exactly what success have they had since being in the MLS?

We have had more success than they have. If its in relation to there strong start to the season, 3 games means nothing IMHO. Yes they finished in a better spot than us last year, but I don't qualify better but still not in the playoffs as success.

[v00d00daddy]

weak argument. The wall of honour has 2 players. Hardly a good statistical example.

RPB players of the year has 3 British and 3 non British players. And these players happened to be best players for the team (well, a strong case can be made) in that particular season.

Fair enough on player of the year even though I think the choices in years 1 and 2 are a good indicator of what qualities the majority of supporters value.

As for the wall...it's a joke. Neither of those guys deserve to be on a wall of honour. But, because they showed the uber valued heart and passion (despite both being terrible players) up on the wall they go. Lol

[v00d00daddy]

Fair points - except the bit about Montreal's success. Exactly what success have they had since being in the MLS?

We have had more success than they have. If its in relation to there strong start to the season, 3 games means nothing IMHO. Yes they finished in a better spot than us last year, but I don't qualify better but still not in the playoffs as success.

In their first year they werent great but at least they were genuinely tough to play at home.

And at least they have expectations.

They want to be good. They devised a plan and are seeing it out. They weren't content with the tiny bit of success that they achieved and made changes without changing the overall philosophy.

All things that we haven't done in 7 years. Other than wanting to be good.

I hate that Montreal appears to be doing things leading them in a good direction.

Are they the benchmark? No.

Are they leaps and bounds ahead of us? Yup

[Yohan]

In their first year they werent great but at least they were genuinely tough to play at home.

And at least they have expectations.

They want to be good. They devised a plan and are seeing it out. They weren't content with the tiny bit of success that they achieved and made changes without changing the overall philosophy.

All things that we haven't done in 7 years. Other than wanting to be good.

I hate that Montreal appears to be doing things leading them in a good direction.

Are they the benchmark? No.

Are they leaps and bounds ahead of us? Yup

TFC was pretty tough to play at BMO Field in year 1 & 2... just saying

[jloome]

Sorry but I disagree that we've never had a style or culture at TFC.

IMO...this club was designed to cater and appeal to followers of the UK game.

You're giving these people way too much credit for forethought.

In my experience, most organizations lack the competency to pull off a conspiracy or a secret market objective without it becomign loud, obvious and stupid.

What happened here is much simpler: they hired Brits, mostly, as coaches, and they were incompetent. That's it. It's not a marketing strategy, it's a failure of diligence.

[Oldtimer]

You're giving these people way too much credit for forethought.

In my experience, most organizations lack the competency to pull off a conspiracy or a secret market objective without it becomign loud, obvious and stupid.

What happened here is much simpler: they hired Brits, mostly, as coaches, and they were incompetent. That's it. It's not a marketing strategy, it's a failure of diligence.

Exactly, Mo was available, Tom felt he had a "free pass" for results, he made a quick & dirty decision. ML$E thought that TFC would be an minor sideline, they had no idea how big football would be in Hogtown, the subsequent huge growth of MLS (partly due to us , partly due to Becks, and partly due to the Northwest clubs), or the media scrutiny they would be under.

[Auzzy]

Montreal has gone out and done the same thing with another footballing ideology and culture and they get shit on for doing so...despite actually finding some success in the early days of their franchise.

And it's because we're inundated with one footballing mentality in this country.

And now the impact have bucked the trend and found success and we shit on when, in reality, we should be using it as a bit of a wake up call that there are other ways to see this game.

I agree with lots of what you wrote. TFC started a German/Dutch phase, but I think it was setup to fail & never had a chance, for many reasons. In addition to the personal limitations of Winter & especially Mariner grafted into the organization, there's always been a lack of proper organization and support, from the top down. (Frankly, those same problems of organization & support also affected the Preki phase, and all the UK/Cdn coaches & managers as well - in addition to each coach's personal limitations.)

However, there's been very little "shitting on" the Impacts "footballing ideology and culture" in particular. One or two guys said something about bringing in lots of Italian players, but that was stopped pretty quickly. I wish you would drop that part of it as well.

Insead: A few people have been saying that the Impact's plan to "win now" with lots of older expensive players, and starting 7 of 11 players over 30 years old in the last game, is risky, and perhaps not the best model to follow especially in the middle to long term. That's not about "footballing ideology and culture," especially not in a national sense. I would say the same thing if they started 7 guys over 30, many of them expensive, if the majority of them were coming from any other country, England Germany Spain France you name it I wouldn't care.

I think Saputo's personal involvement is also interesting, can go either way good or bad, we shall see over the long term. I didn't think dropping Jesse Marsch was a good idea at the time, but maybe Schällibaum will do fine, we shall see.

I think TFC is obviously worse than Montreal at this point. But if I want this team to improve, I think there's much more reliable models to follow within MLS, such as RSL, Seattle, LA.

Nelsen/Payne got some guys from the UK & Ireland because Nelsen knew them, and they were available mostly on short-term deals or loans. Compared to the long-term successful MLS teams, I think TFC has had a real lack of quality players from the US, as well as from Central & South America. And a number of good ones that they had, they got rid of again. Also a lack of good younger players generally, that are developed with any kind of continuity. I think Payne & Nelsen know that, and have made it clear they're trying to sign quality Central & South American players if they can get them at the right terms, as well as trying to build youth over time. I don't see Payne as being really UK-based or influenced; he's a long-term MLSer; and Nelsen was brought in as much for his DCU connection as anything else.

[Auzzy]

Montreal has gone out and done the same thing with another footballing ideology and culture and they get shit on for doing so...despite actually finding some success in the early days of their franchise.

And it's because we're inundated with one footballing mentality in this country.

And now the impact have bucked the trend and found success and we shit on when, in reality, we should be using it as a bit of a wake up call that there are other ways to see this game.

I agree with lots of what you wrote. TFC started a German/Dutch phase, but I think it was setup to fail & never had a chance, for many reasons. In addition to the personal limitations of Winter & especially Mariner grafted into the organization, there's always been a lack of proper organization and support, from the top down. (Frankly, those same problems of organization & support also affected the Preki phase, and all the UK/Cdn coaches & managers as well - in addition to each coach's personal limitations.)

However, there's been very little "shitting on" the Impacts "footballing ideology and culture" in particular. One or two guys said something about bringing in lots of Italian players, but that was stopped pretty quickly. I wish you would drop that part of it as well.

Instead: A few people have been saying that the Impact's plan to "win now" with lots of older expensive players, and starting 7 of 11 players over 30 years old in the last game, is risky, and perhaps not the best model to follow especially in the middle to long term. That's not about "footballing ideology and culture," especially not in a national sense. I would say the same thing if they started 7 guys over 30, many of them expensive, if the majority of them were coming from any other country, England Germany Spain France you name it I wouldn't care.

I think Saputo's personal involvement is also interesting, can go either way good or bad, we shall see over the long term. I didn't think dropping Jesse Marsch was a good idea at the time, but maybe Schällibaum will do fine, we shall see.

I think TFC is obviously worse than Montreal at this point. But if I want this team to improve, I think there's much more reliable models to follow within MLS, such as RSL, Seattle, LA.

Nelsen/Payne got some guys from the UK & Ireland because Nelsen knew them, and they were available mostly on short-term deals or loans. Compared to the long-term successful MLS teams, I think TFC has had a real lack of quality players from the US, as well as from Central & South America. And a number of good ones that they had, they got rid of again. Also a lack of good younger players generally, that are developed with any kind of continuity. I think Payne & Nelsen know that, and have made it clear they're trying to sign quality Central & South American players if they can get them at the right terms, as well as trying to build youth over time. I don't see Payne as being really UK-based or influenced; he's a long-term MLSer; and Nelsen was brought in as much for his DCU connection as anything else.

[v00d00daddy]

TFC was pretty tough to play at BMO Field in year 1 & 2... just saying

Yeah...pretty tough by TFC standards. In 2008 TFC were really good at home. But if you combine years 1 and 2 they went 11W-9L-9D (Year 1 5W-7L-3D...Year 2 6W-2L-6D)

Montreal won 10 games at home last year. (10W-4L-3D)

TFC were pretty tough to play but still not like Montreal was last year.

[ManUtd4ever]

You're giving these people way too much credit for forethought.

In my experience, most organizations lack the competency to pull off a conspiracy or a secret market objective without it becomign loud, obvious and stupid.

What happened here is much simpler: they hired Brits, mostly, as coaches, and they were incompetent. That's it. It's not a marketing strategy, it's a failure of diligence.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Anselmi had no clue when he was handed the reins to this organization, and seven abysmal years later, he still has no clue.

The hiring of MoJo, the consulting services of Klinsmann that led to the hiring of Winter, and the hiring of Payne were all the result of MLS intervention. In the case of MoJo and Klinsmann, Anselmi publicly acknowledged that he reached out to the league for assistance.