"Regardless, with Hassli gone and Koevermans still recovering and not expected to return to action until May at the earliest, Andrew Wiedeman and Justin Braun are the only established MLS strikers left on the roster."Originally Posted by Yohan
Sorry, Wiedeman is NOT an established striker.
Same with Braun. We have no established striker right now.
Without a striker, this team is looking dreadful.
Guys, have a bit of faith. We dealt him for a reason: room, monetarily and slot-wise. Payne will bring in a proven striker before the season starts. If YOU think we're light in attack, you gotta think Payne and Nelsen see it too.
Now lets get rid of Paul Mariner's girlfriend, Dunfield
+1 this is it guys. No Payne No Gain. The man is on the technical board of US Soccer, think he probably knows a thing or two about the game eh?
Pretty sure he wouldn't have let go of Hassli if he didn't have a replacement waiting in the wings. At least I darn well hope so...
Cause he's Anselmi's boy.
Some of you people on the forum truly aggravate me, you really have some fucked up priorities when it comes to this club. All (some) of you complain constantly about the turn around at this club. Yet in this thread it troubles me, angers me to see you're talking about releasing Koevermans, and trading Dunfield. We're trying to mend a front office, trying to fix a broken reputation of turning players away. You want to reward this man, a player with a heart bigger then ANYBODYS on this team, a player with a work rate that again surpasses even Frings on the field, he was our most valueable player last season and you want to trade him away? You must be mental, you actually must have a problem something disconnecting in the footballing part of your brain.
Some of you even want to release a striker who when on form burys 1 in 3. A guy who didn't sit back when there was trouble, fully called out the entire team to do better "worst team in the world" on the field he never shys away from a challenge. Rogers Centre with the boot in his leg? You all remember the big fight at the semi-final at BMO Field? That would've had punches thrown and major problems if Koevermans wasn't there he restrained a security guard at one point, he physically grabbed him and told him to walk away from the players because he was getting to hot.
Koevermans and Dunfield are great players, and better men.
I think you're about to be accused of having Leafs mentality. Too much loving hard workers, not enough skilled players. lol.
Not that I disagree with you. He may not be the best player (not even close) to wear TFC shirt, but Dunfield loves to play for this team just as much as Dichio and Robbo did. Just as much as you can't win with a team of just Dunfields, you cannot win without some character guys like Dunfield on your team.Actually, Koevermans has a strike rate of just under 2 goals every 3 games in MLS. With a ridiculously good strike rate like that, you have to take a chance that Koevermans might recover something remotely close his former self. ACL is a terrible injury to come back from, but this is more of a problem for players that rely on speed. Koevermans is a poacher. As long as his mobility isn't shot, he'll still be at the right spot at the right time, and making timely runs to get at the end of the ball.
Some of you even want to release a striker who when on form burys 1 in 3. A guy who didn't sit back when there was trouble, fully called out the entire team to do better "worst team in the world" on the field he never shys away from a challenge. Rogers Centre with the boot in his leg? You all remember the big fight at the semi-final at BMO Field? That would've had punches thrown and major problems if Koevermans wasn't there he restrained a security guard at one point, he physically grabbed him and told him to walk away from the players because he was getting to hot.
Koevermans and Dunfield are great players, and better men.
Since the odds of TFC making the playoffs is pretty slim, what does buying out Koevermans now exactly do? Buy him, find a new DP (and slim pickings on that front this time of the year), and hope for a miracle run?
Last edited by Yohan; 02-05-2013 at 01:54 AM.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
I never quite understood the hate of Hassli either. Hassli has never been most prolific goal scorer, hovering just under 1 goal every 3 games, about same in MLS. He had one injury ridden season in MLS and he's labelled as a nurse chaser.
Hassli managed to score 3 goals in 7 games on a shitty TFC team, and that's with a sore ankle and other nagging injuries. I have a feeling a healthy Hassli is going to score 12+ goals with Dallas, esp with a David Ferreira feeding him the ball.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
The reason where it would make sense is if they are not planning on renewing his contract at the end of the year anyway (for whatever reason).
If you bought him out now then you have the cap space and DP slot open to bring in a replacement now (not necessarily a DP). The point not being to make a playoff push now, but to get the core of your team together as quickly as possible and give them time to acclimatize to the league and gel. Much better to go start the season next year with a player that has a year of MLS & TFC.
Koevs is a big "if" IMHO. The guy has the second best strike rate in league history (goals per minutes), and if he can come back fit, and back to that form then he is obviosuly worth keeping. That said, he is also a 34 year old player that has had injury problems with us, and has a big question mark over the fact that he is coming back from a serious injury. Keeping him is a huge gamble. If it pays off, it pays off mighty well. If it doesn't it goes a long way towards keeping this team in mediocrity.
Personally, I think that Frings and Koevs are gone at the end of the season (if not before for one of them) - I think the team is going to move away from the "aging vet" model of DP's and look for younger players from down south. I think there is a lot of merit in looking at 2-3 DP's that are 23 years or younger.
Also - as far as DP pickings right now - are they slim? Certainly if you are looking at European based players. But what about looking at Central American and South American players?
The guys holdup play was amongst the best I've seen in the league. If we had been able to pair him with the right partner up top it could have been a lethal combo.
Wasn't the issue with him at Van that he was streaky? Would go on a short tear and then be anonymous for stretches?
Exactly. Dunfield should stay.
He is not over paid. And brings tons of value for the salary in so many different ways. No amount of money in the world can buy the type of character that he has, and that this team needs more of.
I never had a hate for Hassli. I enjoyed watching him play last season (when he could). He seems to have kept his emotions under check while playing here, which was previously a knock against him. I also never had the feeling he didn't want to be here during the season. I think one issue, he was used wrong. Not yet fully healed, played lots of minutes in a few games, and in a role that really subjects you to abuse (which he gives as good as he gets): Extreme long ball, asking for extreme hold-up play. All that from a guy, who although big, is great with the soft touches & close interplay. So of course he didn't last & got injured again.
He was the wrong player at the wrong time in a lost season. Even now, his problem is as much the contracts of Ecks and O'Dea (plus the other DP's), which are even harder to dump that Hassli's. So Hassli has to take the fall. I'm sure he'll score or assist on some goals against as, as will Plata.
Last edited by Auzzy; 02-05-2013 at 10:48 AM.
Agreed. Koevermans should stay, he is a proven and prolific striker in this league. If a DP needs to be sacrificed I would put Frings on that altar.
If it was up to me I would keep them both and see how it goes. If it doesn't go well both of their contracts are up at the end of this year anyway. But I would really like to see what Frings can do with a full season at midfield proper, with a decent backline that he doesn't have to worry so much about or fill in for. I really liked the distribution that I saw from him last year when he was in that role, sparingly as it was.
On the worst team in league history.
Let's keep him for when the good times come and reap the rewards.
Also, very good points on the young DP's. Obviously Payne thinks that this is the future of the league as well. If MLS can get the Javier Hernandez's of the Latin American world and develop them to either be sold or become staples of our league it will help on all fronts.
Last edited by Alonso; 02-05-2013 at 09:16 AM.
i'd rep this more if i could.
danny has been, without a doubt, the best striker we've ever had. he's been a leader on and off the pitch. yes he's getting older, yes he's going to be out until may the earliest, but even sitting on the sidelines he's still giving interviews about how much he's looking forward to coming back even with all of the shit we've been through. he's never shied away from saying how he feels, so hearing people say that we should put him out to pasture, while he's saying how much he wants to come back AND HELP THIS CLUB, really chaps my ass.
as for dunfield, this is a guy i've constantly gone to bat for. people are so quick to associate him with mariner that they can't see anything else. i've pointed out that he was consistently our best midfield option last season (even moreso then torsten frings and at a fraction of the cost) in terms of forward passes delivered AND completed. this was a guy who worked his ass off every single day, and was proud playing to play for this team, even when the rest of you were laughing in his face. fuck me, even after he busted his ass against vancouver i still heard criticism.
we want a stable roster, we want "core guys" then let them come back, give them a shot, and let our coach determine whether or not they fit into his vision of our team this season.
I'm torn TBH. I'd love to see us keep him, and then see him get fit, stay fit and bag goal after goal with a better team behind him. But those are a lot of if's, and with the nature of the cap structure in this league, it's a lot to gamble with.
Sentimentality has no place in competitive sports. The arguments that some make about keeping him around for what he did and how he was mean nothing IMHO. You keep a player because of what they can contribute now, or what you think they can contribute in the future. No quality side will carry passengers for sentimentality sake. Look at the best in the business - Fergie. When a player out lives there usefulness - they are gone. Club legend or not. But you can do it in respectful ways without tarnishing the image of the club - unlike what we have done in the past.
While maximizing the quality of the DP's is important (getting the next Hernandez would be pretty amazing), it's also pretty hard. There is also a lot of potential to game the cap a bit, so to speak. With a cap hit for 150k/20 or younger and 200k for 21-23, there is a lot of potential here to improve the quality of the team without having superstars.Also, very good points on the young DP's. Obviously Payne thinks that this is the future of the league as well. If MLS can get the Javier Hernandez's of the Latin American world and develop them to either be sold or become staples of our league it will help on all fronts.
You could, for example use one or two of the DP slots to bring in, say a young player that would be a very good MLS player (say - upper end of the cap if non-DP), but sign them as a DP and save significant cap space.
The obvious argument against would be sign three budding young stars, which would be ideal, but is obviously a lot tougher.
The ONLY reason you get rid of Koev's before waiting to see if he can regain his form is if you already have a Younger DP deal done, and the only way to make it official is by getting rid of Koev's DP spot and cap-hit.
If you don't absolutely need that spot right away, there is no risk whatsoever in having a wait-and-see approach with regards to him coming back.
And with Hassli now gone, I doubt TFC will absolutely need Koev's space too this season.
The guy (by all accounts) seems like a great presence on the team and a positive influence to the players around him.
He's already talking about wanting to come back strong from this injury to perform for THIS team, not just this year, but in the future as well. He talks of wanting to be on OUR Wall-of-Fame.
You don't just get rid of a player of his strike-rate and quality (on and off the pitch), who actually CARES and is committed to being a part of this team's success even after his current contract is over.
Last edited by gdg_9; 02-05-2013 at 10:56 AM.
Things with Koev is simple if we take out sentiment. Yes he is the best striker we've had and could be a league best forward if he recovers 100% plus he said all the right things about the club and city but, if Payne wants a younger squad built for the long haul and if Danny K is not in the cards to be re-signed past this season then it's a waste to spend that cap space and DP spot on having a striker for a half season in a rebuilding year.
Again, it's no different than having Hassli here for a few pointless months last year.
It's only a waste if Payne has plans to use that space this year on a younger, long term piece.
With Hassli gone, plus all the allocation we have, I doubt Payne will need that space.
If he does, then fine - Koev's can go.
But I highly doubt Payne will be bringing in 3 DP level players this season.
(We already have space for one with Hassli gone, and Payne was quoted as saying we have enough allocation after the draft to add another DP level player from that)
Glad to see Hassli traded, no need to have two strikers who play the exact same game here.
I'm a Koevs fan and if he is healthy I think he still has a solid year, maybe two left in him. Not like he was a runner before, so loss of speed with this injury isn't a huge factor IMO. As long as he can be in the right places at the right time and as long as he can still fight for the ball, then I don't see why we would get rid of him.
A younger DP striker with pace would be the best compliment to his game. Someone who can take the heat off of him with his pace and someone who should by all theories be open for through passes and be able to make those epic striker runs. Gives us two options up front assuming we stick with the 4-2-2...although I would rather see a 4-3-1-2 sort of setup as it's more attack friendly.
Or you need the cap space to complete a deal or two for a non-DP player(s) that improves the overall team now and helps us build toward the future.
I see a fair number of players here:
http://www.mlssoccer.com/stats/seaso...12&group=GOALS
That scored 10 or more goals last year that are not DP's.
Also - Payne recently said the cap situation is bad.
It's simple really. Is TFC better now and over the next few years with Koevermans on the roster, or with the cap space used on other players. That is a question none of us can answer.
I would not bat an eye if Frings was bought out. No questions asked. As long as we get young, in-form replacements from somewhere less overpaid than Western Europe, I'm happy.
Danny K is different because he scores like a maniac. Still, if Payne said, "we have a striker we can bring on who's 25, proven as a serious goal threat in a South American league of decent stature, but we have to dump Danny to make it happen," I'd say go ahead. To me rebuilding is always largely about youth, because even youth can carry a lot of experience. I'd be willing to take that chance. Would you want a one-year goal machine who gets injured relatively often, or someone who has a 25% conversion rate but could stay here for 3 years or more?
Frings especially, but Danny too to some lesser degree, are dinosaurs by football standards. More importantly, they're an albatross around the neck of this team.
uh, Hassli liked to play outside the box while Danny K parked himself inside 6 yard box basically. two totally different strikers
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
some of best strikers in MLS produced at 34-35. Like Juan Pablo Angel, Thierry Henry. Jaimie Moreno. DeRo. Robbie Keane will be 33 in July. Hell, even Jeff Cunningham potted 10 goals at age 34.
Strikers with Danny K's skill set that doesn't rely on pace (IE poacher types) can last a long time, even at old age. Best example? Pippo Inzaghi.
Giving up on Danny K, thinking that he's washed up, when there is no evidence to contrary other than big question mark about whether Danny K will come back fully fit after ACL injury is nuts. Rarely you will find a pure finisher like Danny K in MLS, and odds you hitting gold finding another like Danny K is extremely slim.
Last edited by Yohan; 02-05-2013 at 12:18 PM.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
Ridiculous. He had the worst "completed percentage" for passing of any other starting central midfielder in the league OTHER than Frings; and that was largely because Frings was the only one of the two trying to create anything with his passing; he took all the high-risk passes, while Dunfield barely managed to maintain a 75% passing rate despite the fact that few of his passes travelled more than five yards.
He has a decent workrate, but covers no ground. He has the upside of character, although it's already been noted by Kocic that guys were cheerful after games last year, and on more than on occasion the camera would cut to Dunfield in a game we were losing or had just lost and he'd be smiling.
I'm glad that he loves football; I think he loves the club and works pretty hard. But he's not competent for this level. He's a backup, at best, a bench filler. If Terry Dunfield is starting on this team, we are losing a lot of games.
On Koevermans, I completely agree. Giving up a player with his strike rate because he's 34 and getting his knee scoped is forgetting the finishing in this league. The guy's strike rate is unparallelled in MLS by anyone over the last two seasons except Wondolowski, so if we only get him for 10 or 15 games, we'll still probably get 6-12 goals out of the guy, and that's with just a partial season.
Last edited by jloome; 02-05-2013 at 12:14 PM.
Both slow and can't make runs past the D. Both relied heavily on being poachers, just on different sides of the pitch.
Pretty similar to me.
my definition of a 'poacher' seems different than yours. (and I suspect, most other peoples)
Last edited by Yohan; 02-05-2013 at 12:46 PM.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
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