As I mentioned in the "presser thread" it does feel a bit like groundhog day ... new season & new coach and all.Originally Posted by Technorgasm
Seeing as he has been a player in MLS hopefully he won't suffer much of the same angst that John Carver did dealing with the league. As a new coach here's hoping that Kevin Payne can also help with the managerial duties which of course are a little different in MLS than in other leagues.
did I want mariner out? Yes
would I prefer and experienced manager? Yes
Have I built a successful football team? No
Has Payne built a successful football team? Yes
so far I've liked what KP has done. this was a bit weird but I'm willing to see where it goes. if it's in the toilet then I'm back in the business of calling them out. if it works then life is good.
I am almost beyond words. This whole thing just keeps getting worse and worse. They have no idea how to instill confidence in their fans. Any hope that I had because of the hiring of Payne is gone.
I think this looks terrible. I hope it works out (obviously), but I really can't see things looking any worse for this team. Mind you, every time I say that they do something that looks worse so...
Im all positive going forward. .
But any coach coming into this league has to be schooled on the SIGNIFICANT challenges they face with Caps space, pinternational players and thelike, and more so for Toronto given our current state and umm. . . hisotry.
With Pyne, we have a lot of that guidance, so its just the on field component that Nelsen will have to worry about.
or at least I hope that is the structure going forward.
winning solves all. . he wins ONE game in the first 9. . we are already ahead!
(sad to read that)
NOTICE: Wager with STB: OVER 2 shots on goal in the First half wins a Pint at HT.
Re Nelsen's lack of MLS knowledge/experience, which so many seem troubled by:
I find this criticism bizarre.
The fact that we historically never had one person in our management setup who really understood MLS, does not now mean that we need every person in our management setup to have these skills.
Understanding MLS is Payne's job.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
The optics of this move are peculiar to say the least, but Payne rightfully deserves the benefit of the doubt regarding personnel decisions based on his track record. He must have known what the perception was going to be, and yet he identified his guy in Nelsen without interviewing any other candidates.
We'll know if he's an evil genius or not soon enough.
I don't want to be negative, I am pretty tired of it believe it or not. But a few days ago when I may or may not have been thinking about what I want in a new coach, was any of this on my list?
- no experience
- no licenses
-still playing in a country 6 hours away
- still playing under a contract that could last well into May
- hired days before the Combine, SuperDraft and start of training camp
- is only vaguely aware of who is on the team, let alone who is in the league or in the works to join the league one day
I'm thinking no. That never occured to me as a good idea.
But hey! Payne has done this before (sort of) and Nelson is a grrrrrreat leader everyone!
No fucking problem. Everything is perfect. Let's go paint some super fucking positive banners.
Having just viewed the TFC video of the presser they posted, they edited out all the hostile questions. When viewed that way, the responses of the three at the front all seem reasonable. Of course that's their spin so take it with a grain of salt.
As for those who say trust in Payne, let's take a little trip down memory lane, MLSE style:
Feb 28, 2006 - Bryan Colangelo (former NBA executive of the Year - trust him!) is announced as President and GM of the Toronto Raptors, an improving NBA team. Team makes playoffs in 2007 and 2008. Then makes questionable trades and draft picks, fires coach the following year, and the team backslides into irrelevance, not making the playoffs since.
Nov 29, 2008 - Brian Burke (previous Stanley Cup winner - trust him!) is announced as GM of the Toronto Maple Leafs, a mediocre NHL team that had not made the playoffs the previous 3 years. Then makes questionable trades and draft picks, fires coach 4 years too late, and the team backslides into irrelevance, still not making the playoffs.
Nov 27, 2008 - Kevin Payne (previous multiple MLS Cup winner - trust him!) is announced as President and GM of Toronto FC, the worst team in the world and a team that has never made the playoffs. Fires coaching staff, makes questionable trades...
Why can't I get this tune out of my head:
"Next Verse, same as the first.
A little bit louder and a little bit worse!"
I'm sorry, but I don't trust anything or anyone that has anything to do with MLSE. It's guilt by association as the corporation taints and corrupts everything and everyone it comes into contact with, no matter what their previous level of success. That is all we have to look forward to.
For the record, Nelsen has extensive familiarity with the league as a former captain of DC United. It's obviously not coaching experience, but the notion that he is foreign to the nuances of MLS is inaccurate.
Cant wait to see our new manager coach, I mean play against Tottenham this weekend...lol
Coaching experience - doesn't appear to matter in this league
Licenses - seriously? seriously? you think licences matter?
Still playing under contract - this is a negative, means we have to wait until April
Hired days before combine and draft - that stuff is all Payne's job anyway. btw on this topic, we are ripping DCU's face off here - we are getting the benefit of moves he was working on for months there (first Peralta, now this), and of course we get the full benefit of DCU's scouting for the draft
Vaguely aware of who is on the team or in the league - you mean compared to Preki? - OK this is a mild negative, but if he's a good coach it won't matter
Summary: yes, you are being ridiculously negative. I said this elsewhere when this rumour surfaced, it wouldn't matter whop replaced Mariner, anyone other than Dominic Kinnear was going to be crucified by public opinion
Last edited by ensco; 01-08-2013 at 02:05 PM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
I have faith in Payne but I find it odd that they've hired a coach who's never been a coach before and who will continue to play this year at QPR for who knows how long.
"Getting out the English Premier League has major financial implications and there is a lot of pressure from fans, the media and so on, so I have an obligation."They would like me to keep playing but we have to sit down and talk. If we can get five straight wins, that'd be perfect.
"I think then we can shake hands [and part company] but we are just going to have to talk and see how things progress."
Shouldn't our new coach be focused on being our new coach...especially when it's the first time he's been a coach?
This club never does anything the logical way, do they? LOL
I have no idea whether Nelsen will work out, but I think people really don't understand where managing TFC ranks in world football.
You want a guy to start tomorrow? You can have that by, say, bringing in someone who was just fired in the Swiss second division.
I am glad Nelsen is the type of guy who is honouring his contractual obligation to his team, and his moral obligation to QPR supporters.
If this is who Payne wants, fine, the cost is he starts late, we'll all remember that if Nelsen fails.
Nelsen is by any standard a reasonable candidate for coach of TFC, given that Payne is fully responsible for cap management, college and pro scouting.
I support Payne's judgment on this.
Last edited by ensco; 01-08-2013 at 02:16 PM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
They just framed everything the wrong way in the press conference. Payne blundered off the top by not stating what the situation was and attaching uncertainty to his start date. If they had just come out and said "he'll be available at the end of the EPL season and O'Leary holding down the fort until then" we all would have been a little put off by the late start date but more accepting I'm sure. At the same time they might have known privately he could join sooner, but by giving the late date they are taking pressure off themselves. The way that wasn't defined off the top and then Nelsen sort of circled around to it in his introduction is really what put everyone off, more than anything.
That being said, if we look past all the crap, we should be realistic about what we are getting. I think part of the negativity is that this guy left the league five years ago and we aren't as familiar with him. If he was doing what he does for QPR in MLS I think it's obvious his name would come up as a candidate given the dynamics of the MLS environment today. Picture TFC naming Kasey Keller their coach or someone of similar stature. Clearly this guy has that draw to him where people really respect his leadership.
Or maybe they just have to word things in this manner as Nelsen is still under contract with QPR. Perhaps when all the paper work is done QPR will release him and he will join us before the season starts or maybe he isn't a douchebag and feels he owes his club the respect to honor his contract and not bail out when things are going south. Especially when he is the vice captain. You really want a guy managing the club who would have a track record of bailing out when things get tough?
For what it's worth, here's the NewsNow feed on what the World is saying:
http://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/Sport/Foo...rs/Ryan+Nelsen
“We changed the entire league’s opinion of the viability of soccer in North America. And then we blew it because we chickened out." —Tim Leiweke
I'm with ensco here. I've followed DC since 2005, and I trust Payne's judgement. Sure it's high risk, but if he's the next Nowak or Kreis, we'll be signing Payne's praise.
As far as hiring someone fired from the powerhouse Swiss second division: we wouldn't even get that on the open market. Montreal has a way better reputation, both as a club and as a place to live than TFC as a club and Toronto does.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Kristian Jack has a neat take on the whole thing:
http://4-2-3-1.com/2013/01/08/toront...ng-of-mariner/
Coaching experience - doesn't appear to matter in this league <---- wow, just wow. For a team whose fans have no confidence what better way to inspire them than by living by this idea. (insert sarcasm emoticon here)
Licenses - seriously? seriously? you think licences matter? <---- You are right. It is better that he has no licenses or training. (insert sarcasm emoticon here)
Vaguely aware of who is on the team or in the league - you mean compared to Preki? <---- No, I did not mean to compare him to anyone, where did you get that idea? More to the point: Nelson has been gone for 7+ years!!!
I never said I wasn't going to be negative. I said I am sick of being negative. I took a break after they hired Payne because I had this weird feeling. I called it hope. I seem to have lost that feeling again. How can you look at this situation and even suggest that it is good, ideal, whatever?
I will concede that one by one my points in the post that you quoted are not that damaging, but althogether they paint a pretty dismal picture.
Of course I 'hope' everything works out nicely for him. And I will support him. But this looks terrible. The 'optics' are terrible. There is nothing positive about this move right now. Let's hope that is proved wrong.
Payne has shown me enough so far that I'm willing to trust him. But this makes me nervous.
What if O'Leary leads the team to something like a 7-2-1 record before Nelsen arrives? Should we just keep O'Leary as coach? What if Nelsen arrives and does worse than O'Leary? What if O'Leary takes 10 games to get a point? Nelsen takes over a defeated team like Mariner did?
Then again, it could go well: Nelsen arrives and outperforms O'Leary and everyone's happy.
Or does it even matter? In Payne's mind, is 2013 a complete and total write-off?
It's just so odd. It's a huge risk to start a season naming a coach who won't even be coaching the team. I don't know. I don't care about Nelsen not being there for the combine or draft (those were always gonna be Payne's shows... people seem to forget his title is also General Manager in addition to President). I'm gonna go with it for now, but this places some doubt in my mind about Payne whereas last night I was pretty much driving the bandwagon.
People need to wrap their heads around the fact that Payne is a Euro-style Manager, not a GM. He's setting the team up his way, with his tactics, then finding a motivator to run it, exactly as he did with D.C. United and Olsen. Why do people think he was going after multiple players before even hiring the coach? Because it's his team.
It could be a good system. I'm optimistic about the whole thing.
Maybe we should be hoping he gets injured?
And how well did it work for these guys who had no coaching licence?
Sam Allardyce
Jimmy Armfield
Steve Clark
Sir Alex Ferguson
George Graham
Glenn Hoddle
Roy Hodgson
Kevin Keegan
Colin Murphy
Martin O'Neill
David Pleat
Harry Redknapp
Sir Bobby Robson
Walter Smith
Graeme Souness
Graham Turner
Graham Taylor
Terry Venables
Neil Warnock
And Nelsen was an assistant coach in the NCAA at 21 years of age as he pointed out in the presser.
I'm not sure this is how you want to impress us with a first quote:
I’m extremely excited to be here,” Nelsen said. “As soon as Toronto FC went into the league, looking from afar I admired the way the club was handled off the field, the passion that the fans had. It was a shining light in a way in how a club should run.”
^^ and we once had a coach with licenses and experience in MLS.
However, few would want Preki back.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
I still think there is a lot to this. Or maybe I'm reading way too much into some of Redknapp's comments, but he certainly seemed to suggest that he wouldn't stand in Nelsen's way if he wanted to leave ASAP. There's still a long way to go in the transfer window - there could be further developments yet.
This is ridiculous. Of course there are exceptions to every rule. I'm talking about the optics of this hiring. Read my posts again a little bit closer.
I give up.
Edit: I took out the cheerleaders bit. Helacious logic seems to be ok, but not name calling intended to summarize those opinions.
Last edited by Yagbod; 01-08-2013 at 03:26 PM.
As Kevin Payne would say - Hope is not a strategy.
Road Trips: July 7 2007 Chicago, July 22nd 2007 Columbus, August 11 2007 NY, October 13 2007 LA, March 29 2008 Columbus, May 24th 2008 DC, May 26 2008 Montreal, June 28th 2008 NE, March 7-11-14 2009 Charleston, March 28 2009 Columbus, April 10 2010 New England, May 12 2010 Montreal, April 7 2012 Montreal, March 16 2013 Montreal , June 3 2014 Montreal, March 14 2015 Columbus
Twitter: @RPBPhil
It's the management that he has to impress more than the fans. He can't say that the club was run badly, since the people who oversaw it then, still oversee the workings of the club.
We all know that the assistant coaches do most of the work when training with players and that the manager just manages.
This looks to me like a Pinball Clemons type of situation, former player who has resepect of his fellow players and can push the right
buttons to get them to perform. Pinball lacked support from the argos the last couple of seasons and started to falter when Adam Rita signed Kerry Joseph when Clemons was happy with Bishop at QB.
The key here is that Payne will support Nelsen and that the assistant coach O'leary has the background to succeed and help Nelsen. I think we might have the right guy in Nelsen at the top and would like to see an additional experienced coach added, I mentioned Dichio earlier in this thread he could be a perfect fit.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote