The great 'Canadians aren't treated equally in MLS' debate thread
To keep the other thread from being derailed
I don't get it. what is not equal for Canadian teams? other than 3 roster spots have to be Canadians, Canadian teams have access to same US and int talent pool that US MLS teams doOriginally Posted by Greatest Ripoff
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
Players get taxed more in Canada which is a deterrent to some but that isn't the fault of MLS. Other than that I can't think of any other reason eh? Maybe they don't like the culture eh? They can take off the bunch of hosers...
It is not the teams that are treated unfairly, it is the players.
Canadian players are treated as international players. Thus it is much harder for developing Canadians to play professionally in the league.
We need them to be treated as domestic players in terms of roster spots.
this is a separate issue, and I don't think it's one that Canadian MLS teams are complaining about...
what Canadian MLS team wants and what Canadian national team wants is a completely separate thing (and for some reason people want to loop together)
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
I'm with you Joe... and with the new healthcare taxes that kicked in a couple days ago, the gap between Canada and the US is getting smaller.
And what's not to like about the culture? Toronto's got a lot more to offer than other MLS cities - definitely Columbus, KC and SLC, and I while they have certain charms, I could make a strong argument for Toronto over the likes of Denver, Porland, Seattle, Dallas, Houston, and even New England since Foxboro is so far away from Boston.
You could say it's harder to foster Canadian talent (that is required for us) when they are treated as a different commodity to American players in the league. If TFC has less ability to deal Canadian players, they're going to think twice about signing marginal Canadian prospects.
pretty much negligible, considering low salary cap hit most of these players would take up and these players are mostly depth players anyways. even most American depth players end up getting released instead of being traded
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
Larson did something on this months ago
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Soccer/Tor.../20032816.html
It's the lack of a flourishing PDL/USL/NCAA-type setup that Canada is missing. Much bigger deal than the MLS rules. Which are a little unfair.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
I think this has something to do with US labor laws, not anything that MLS has any control over.
I'm not sure if Montreal supporters even really cares to develop Canadian players... Quebec players, yes. Canadian players? Hmmm...
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
I've been told US labour laws can be changed so that Canadians count as domestic player for US MLS teams, however, this requires a lot of lobbying by MLS and USSF. Would MLS and USSF want to expend political influence on behalf of CSA? For what benefit? Hmmm...
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
You'd need to put getting rid of the CFL Import Rules on the table to even start talking about this. Seems like a non-starter to me.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
It's true. Back in the day, the old NASL got an exemption for Canadian players, they were treated the same as Americans for roster purposes. The same types of rules existed back then.
The CFL's rules weren't an obstacle back then, either.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
It is not a separate issue. It devalues Canadian content in the trade market for Canadian teams because they count as internationals for almost all other teams.
I doubt that very much. If Canadian teams have to have so many Canadians on their roster and they are at a disadvantage when trying to trade them then it is a shared issue.
Also, you mention that Canadian teams are complaining. What are they complaining about? Surely someone said something if you think they are complaining. What are the issues?
Depending on the market you could make cost of living arguments as well. Toronto and Vancouver are relatively on the expensive end of things. Although that's not a Canadian problem as much as a big market problem that in some way is probably balanced out by guys not wanting to go to sleepy cities with nothing to do. Oh wait that's also Vancouver *zing*
It's not labor laws. This one has been pretty much debunked. It's the way MLS and the USSF handle the rules. But as far as the content requirements go for Canadian teams, the CSA has authority over that, they just don't have much of a backbone.
This is why salaries (or the cap) should be based on net income, not gross
actually wouldn't mind seeing a euro setup...car, room, board + net income salary
Do they, though? I swear players negotiate contracts as a final figure, in that the club pays whatever taxes are necessary in order to get them their agreed-upon number. It's like that in Europe, where, for example, my $1 million a year contract actually costs the club $1.13 million with a 13% tax rate.
It may not be like that here though. I'll have to check.
No births into the CCL for Canadian teams for wining the supporters shield or getting to the MLS cup final.
US MLS teams are willing to use an int spot to sign proven Canadian players if the price, and the salary is right. Will Johnson for example. So did Attakora. Hell even JDG went to Dallas and we thought he was virtually unmoveable (and I know TFC had to eat JDG's salary). Remember Kevin Harmse? He got traded to Chivas USA. Or Edson Edward who was signed by Dallas out of USL Ottawa.
Biggest obstacle for Canadian players being signed by MLS teams is that most Canadian players aren't good enough for MLS teams, esp when there are plenty of Americans who can do the job
as of right now, it isn't much of an issue because most Canadian teams don't have many Canadian players. this might be an issue in the future if Canadian players start signing more Canadians from youth academies but in truth, just how many decent players will a Canadian youth academy will produce. maybe one a year if that?
I have speculations, nothing more.Also, you mention that Canadian teams are complaining. What are they complaining about? Surely someone said something if you think they are complaining. What are the issues?
debunked how? please don't say USL lol.
CSA agreed to reduced Canadian quota content because the Canadian talent pool isn't deep enough for Canadian MLS teams to be competitive. Remember Canizalez, Braz and Reda? Now with 3 Canadian teams, do you honestly believe there are good enough Canadian players out there to fill those teams and be competitive in MLS at same time?But as far as the content requirements go for Canadian teams, the CSA has authority over that, they just don't have much of a backbone.
I'm not even sure if CSA has the authority to change MLS rules. But CSA has the ability to change V Cup rules to up the Canadian quota for sure (and is something I think CSA should be doing)
you should take that issue up with USSF. MLS doesn't control how USSF allocations CCL spots
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
Yeah, hopefully a U-23 league fixes this problem.
This issue is more malleable than the Vcup issue of whether we concentrate/try/abandon the Vcup and Champions league. If people want to see immediate change in quality make sure those positions to CAnadians stay malleable as they are and keep them competitive. I hate the thought of limiting spots/chances for Canadians but I think the real problem is the poor gap in level quality between the leagues here.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
I don't have a problem with them initially rolling it down. What I do have an issue with is not having a plan to increase it in the future and teams using paper-canaidans plus guys with residency cards to cover a messily three spots.
Do I think we can fill a fair number of spots and still be competitive? Yes I do, because most of these guys will never play, or play minor roles. What's the difference between some of the marginal americans on the back end of our roster and an extra canadian? It's only that the americans are more tradable assets because of the roster rules, that's it.
As for increasing the quota, teams have to sweat a little bit in terms of improving the youth setup and start thinking long term. They should know that while they can get way with three spots today it's going to be 5 spots by 2015, 8 spots by 2018, 10 spots by 2020 etc... Things at the youth level (despite all their marketing telling you they are the greatest) could be done a lot better and I honestly believe if it was run in the most efficient way possible it would provide us with a source of consistently good / cheap players and give us an advantage over other teams in the league. We are in a much better situation to develop this kind of model than basically any other team, with perhaps the exception of the Californian squads.
It is a standard practice by all MLS teams to try to maximize their int spot available by getting their players green card/permanent residency as soon as possible. It makes sense from competitive POV. Unless you're asking teams to deliberately not be as competitive for CMNT's sake.
What do you do with dual citizenship Canadians and they declare for another country? Turf them?
What Canadian players need is regular playing time, not be on reserves. It does nothing for their development to play couple of reserve games and take up a roster spot.Do I think we can fill a fair number of spots and still be competitive? Yes I do, because most of these guys will never play, or play minor roles. What's the difference between some of the marginal americans on the back end of our roster and an extra canadian? It's only that the americans are more tradable assets because of the roster rules, that's it.
I don't know about consistently good, if the best HG players keep getting poached by non MLS teams. TFC lost 2 to QPR, and SKC just lost one to Atletico Madrid. I have a feeling that there will be a lot of poaching going on, as soon as more European teams realize that they can steal MLS youth academy players without having to pay compensation.As for increasing the quota, teams have to sweat a little bit in terms of improving the youth setup and start thinking long term. They should know that while they can get way with three spots today it's going to be 5 spots by 2015, 8 spots by 2018, 10 spots by 2020 etc... Things at the youth level (despite all their marketing telling you they are the greatest) could be done a lot better and I honestly believe if it was run in the most efficient way possible it would provide us with a source of consistently good / cheap players and give us an advantage over other teams in the league. We are in a much better situation to develop this kind of model than basically any other team, with perhaps the exception of the Californian squads.
So, what will MLS teams end up with? I'm prepared to be wrong in my prediction as HG experiment is only starting, and will take another 3 yrs or so for the program to fully kick in and a lot of HGs signed recently to prove themselves to be good MLS players.
I am of firm belief that biggest obstacle to player development in Canada is lack of good, stable Div 2 and 3 leagues. Historically, MLS teams, Canadian or US, will sign Canadian players if they are good enough. Restricting Canadian MLS teams' ability to be competitive by upping Canadian quota now, or immediately in the future will only be negative.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
Please hold the mustard on the “we can’t be competitive we a few more Canadians” stuff. Look at who is playing on the back end of MLS rosters, we could be fielding geriatrics in those spots and it wouldn’t hurt the competitive position of the team. It’s as simple as us giving spots for marginal professionals who are Americans as opposed to Canadians. You talk of regular playing time, but opportunity is a pre-cursor to that. More roster spots provide more opportunities.
As for the academy kids leaving, that isn’t new. FCD lost a kid who was starting in the Boca / River derby six months later. This stuff happens all throughout the world, the question is how do you respond to it. I don’t believe we’ve used all the resources at our disposal yet to fully maximize the value of the team (such as GA contracts). Asides from that, I have to say this is not the only issue that impacts the quality of what comes out of the academy. There are other probably more significant ways we can get better.
I wonder what Oscar Cordon and Keith Makubuya thinks of this. If I was a professional soccer player, I want game time to develop. I don't get that by rotting in the reserves. What you are proposing creates more Cordons and Makubuyas, which does nothing for CMNT pool
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
Ya sign me up for u23 season tickets.I couldn't give a rats ass where a player is from. It's nice that Montreal's captain is Canadian. It's nice that Vancouver is 4000KM away. It's nice that we wear red. It's not nice to finish dead last. Get me some players who are ready NOW and if he's from China or Texas-- who cares. I have ZERO interest in some kid whose 22 and not earning a paycheck from the sport playing in some u23 up scale garage league. That won't solve a dam thing. Not a single thing in terms of winning games for TFC or for Canada.
Their partners also won't be able to work in Canada - so if you are on a standard MLS salary and your partner is earning a good income - you could be taking a serious dent int the family income or living apart for awhile.
Again - not an MLS thing, but a strike against us. I know one ex-player of ours who left for this specific reason.
I do believe Canadians aren't quite treated equally in MLS; there are some disadvantages for the Cdn players & the teams that employ them. Look at Harden getting picked up after TFC dumped him; compare that with some decent Canadians not being picked up. There are plenty of other examples.
However, all that's frankly to be expected for a country with a population of 35 million, one of the wealthiest in the world, with plenty of locals & immigrants very interested in soccer, massive participation at the youth level -- yet Canada can't assemble it's own 1st-division pro league; only three teams playing in another country's top league; not even a decent national 2nd- or 3rd-division league; and miserable results for the men's national team especially relative to Canada's potential. So yes, all that brings some disadvantages for Cdn. players & teams. However, it's still a benefit that those teams & players can at least take part in MLS.
I'm very happy that MLS exists & that Toronto takes part in that. But we have to realize the whole situation has downsides for Canada. I know where the habit to join US leagues comes from, I know about Canada's unique geography, I know the impact US pro sports has on the Cdn market & it's effect on the viability of a separate Cdn soccer league. Yet other countries with much smaller & poorer populations, with other unique geographic challenges, and other competing sports interests, still manage to assemble their own national soccer leagues (& multiple divisions) where they can do as they please. Unfortunately, that's life for Toronto FC & Cdn soccer.
However, it would be a worthwhile interview topic with folks involved with MLS in Canada. Have they tried to get Cdn players treated as domestics for US MLS leagues? Have US labour laws changed since the NASL days? Perhaps USSF just isn't interested in helping out Canada & its players any more? In the end, USSF is a key factor, as they organized & sanctioned MLS, to meet the needs of US soccer development, and the requirements of FIFA for hosting a World Cup.
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