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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    Most as in American media? Qualifying for the playoffs (like half teams in MLS do) doesn't mean much in the end especially when you're one and done. That doesn't bring much respect either! Playoff just gives average teams something to play for in the end. Winning supporters shield should mean more than winning playoffs in the end. Too bad no one talks about winning the shield here.
    And Canadian media. You might not get much press making the playoffs, but you do get a lot when you make the MLS Cup final, even if you sneaked into the playoffs.

    TFC can't even be avg in the league. Winning the V Cup (as much as I love it), is like winning Johnstone's Paint Trophy. In reality, means very little.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    Yeah, playing one playoff game is more important than winning V-Cup and playing in CCL. Typical North American sports fan BTW: Vancouver and Montreal take V-Cup seriously enough that they bench their first team a league game before a V-Cup game.
    But making the play-offs means that we are a competitive team that wins a bunch of games and entertains us on a weekly basis. That is much more important than winning the V-Cup.

    I hate to say it but the V-Cup and the CCL are a sideshow that has distracted us from doing better in the league. Look at the attendance figures for the cup competitions and it shows you what large numbers of our SSH think. You may deride them and call them "Typical North American sports fans" but without them there would be no TFC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    Yeah, playing one playoff game is more important than winning V-Cup and playing in CCL. Typical North American sports fan BTW: Vancouver and Montreal take V-Cup seriously enough that they bench their first team a league game before a V-Cup game.
    Dude, be honest, have you EVER talked to anyone who gave 2 cents worth of respect to TFC for winning that cup? Now tell me their reaction when you told them that we played in the Champions League - even though we've never made the play-offs in the league competition. The V-Cup is not now, nor will it ever, be considered anything remotely close to a domestic cup in other countries. It's a 4-team cup. Don't get me wrong, I want to win that trophy, but I just can't take people seriously when they say that it's somehow more prestigious to win the V-Cup than participating in the play-offs. Who honestly finds it more prestigious? I think you're making a mistake by comparing our national cup with the FA Cup, and you're comparing the CCL with the Champions League of Europe. NO ONE CARES! Sorry to burst your bubble. If we want to gain respect as a club we NEED to make the play-offs - or we'll continue to remain a joke by all. And yes, that's even with our amazing 4 V-Cup trophies in a row.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    Most as in American media? Qualifying for the playoffs (like half teams in MLS do) doesn't mean much in the end especially when you're one and done. That doesn't bring much respect either! Playoff just gives average teams something to play for in the end. Winning supporters shield should mean more than winning playoffs in the end. Too bad no one talks about winning the shield here.
    If TFC can't even make the playoffs, what makes you think they can win the Supporters Shield?
    No one talks about it because TFC have never been a competitive team that could honestly be considered contenders for it.

    oh and for what it's worth, I think the Voyagers Cup is a joke of a tournament. It's just another round of CCL IMO.
    The only reason people are so responsive to it is because they added a trophy to it and called it a championship.

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    I love the CCL. The games against LA and The first games against Santos Laguna were great games to go to. Hell, even that magical feeling of beating Dallas in their park to go back through to the knockout round...wonderful!

    You'd rather have a single solitary playoff game than those?

    Oh I know I'll be over the moon when we first qualify for the playoffs but I don't think it will come close to how I felt when we knocked Beckham Boys, anointed by MLS to go all the way, out of the Champions League.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    Yeah, playing one playoff game is more important than winning V-Cup and playing in CCL. Typical North American sports fan BTW: Vancouver and Montreal take V-Cup seriously enough that they bench their first team a league game before a V-Cup game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    whether you like it or not, legitimacy in MLS is gained through being competitive in league play. that means making the playoffs. win a 4 team mini cup tourney? most would think it's a joke.
    This eternal debate breaks downs thus for me:

    Legitimate to everyone else, the league, the continent does not equal interesting to me. "At least we made the playoffs" is consolation talk with nothing to show for it. To qualify to play the same teams in the post season has very little interest to me vs playing our national rivals to qualify to play the rest of the region.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    oh and for what it's worth, I think the Voyagers Cup is a joke of a tournament. It's just another round of CCL IMO.
    The only reason people are so responsive to it is because they added a trophy to it and called it a championship.
    Ah, a Celtic fan! Who cares about Europe when your number one in Scotland!

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    I think TFC has to make the playoffs and win the VC to be respectable. No one or the other.
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    Making the MLS playoffs means you were top-10 in a 19 team league over 34 games.

    Winning the Voyageurs Cup means you won a 4-team, 4-game tournament which includes an NASL team.

    Who would you say had the better season last year, Vancouver or TFC?

    Vancouver were 11-13-10 in MLS, finished 5th in the West, and lost the play-in game in the playoffs. They also lost in the finals of the V-Cup.

    TFC was 5-21-8 in MLS, 10th in the East. They won the V-Cup, went 2-0-2 in their 3-team CCL group and failed to advance.

    I think TFC fans overrate the CCL because it's the only place we've ever had any success. That semi-final run was amazing but as we saw it was no indication of the team's quality. TFC followed it by finishing dead last in MLS and attendance took a nosedive.

    Once we start making the playoffs regularly I think people will realize that that should be the main goal for every season. I think it's more likely we win the MLS Cup than go to the Club World Cup. We should focus on the games we play every week rather than a short tournament that wouldn't exist if CONCACAF didn't separate Canadian and American qualification.

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    But nowhere else other than CCL would a team have a chance to see how they stack up against the UEFA Champions' League winner in a match that mattered. Being MLS Champion can't offer that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I think TFC has to make the playoffs and win the VC to be respectable. No one or the other.
    Agreed.

    Given that 1/3 (33%) of eligble MLS teams win the VC and 10/19 (53% of MLS teams make the playoffs), then year in, year out, winning the VC will be the greater achievement, all things being equal.

    If the best we ever do is make the play-offs, and nothing else, I really don't feel we've achieved much success.

    Still, it's a rebuilding year ... we'll be very lucky to be in sniffing distance of the play-offs, or win the VC this year. I hope that no one has any expectations of much more (hope is great, but unreasonable expectations will become poison).

    Personally, I find the must-win feel of any given VC or Champions League game (or play-off game I'd presume) than any given 1 in 34 MLS game. There's an extra edge in the air.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by nfitz View Post
    Ah, a Celtic fan! Who cares about Europe when your number one in Scotland!
    I didn't say CCL was a joke, I said Voyagers Cup was a joke.
    But now that you mention it, yes, who cares about CONCACAF CCL when you are consistently last in your league!

    I mean how embarrassing is it that the Canadian Champion is also the last place, and laughing stock, team of the league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    I mean how embarrassing is it that the Canadian Champion is also the last place, and laughing stock, team of the league.
    Given that on average, the Canadian entry in the Champions League has outperformed the US entries ... not embarrassing at all!

    Not sure why one would think that the Voyageurs Cup is a joke. Far more enjoyable than a league game against Chivas ...

    And as I pointed out, harder to win than a play-off spot - on average, over the years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huyton View Post
    I love the CCL. The games against LA and The first games against Santos Laguna were great games to go to. Hell, even that magical feeling of beating Dallas in their park to go back through to the knockout round...wonderful!

    You'd rather have a single solitary playoff game than those?

    Oh I know I'll be over the moon when we first qualify for the playoffs but I don't think it will come close to how I felt when we knocked Beckham Boys, anointed by MLS to go all the way, out of the Champions League.
    This!....

    making the playoff's and winning the cup should be the #1 goal for this club, that bring said the best memory I have is watching Ryan roundhouse kick the flag poll & Silva get his first from Frings hail marry pass outa the midfield to set the stage for LA's exit back in there own house.

    There was something magical about that night and it will take a pretty impressive playoff run (we would need to reach the cup final) for me to get the feelings I got in Skydome last March. Play-off's are important but we cant belittle the V-cup and CCL, to me they mean just as much beause its another night I can watch the boys play!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nfitz View Post
    Given that on average, the Canadian entry in the Champions League has outperformed the US entries ... not embarrassing at all!

    And as I pointed out, harder to win than a play-off spot - on average, over the years.
    Both of these statements are wrong. The Canadian champion has not outperformed the US teams "on average". In 5 years the Canadian team made it to the knockout stage 2 times (40%). In those years the 4 US teams made it 8 times out of a possible 20 (also 40%). This confirms that they're on the same level. It makes sense because TFC has been a mediocre MLS team in the past but last year it was a joke they were in the CCL while being dead last in MLS.

    The Voyageurs Cup is not harder to win than making the MLS playoffs, and the stats you use to form this opinion are simplistic and irrelevant. It is MUCH easier to win a 4 game tournament than be consistently good for 34 games. The more games you play the more your quality shines through, this is basic logic. A shorter format allows more room for upsets which is why most major leagues have a best of 7 playoff format. It's a fact that Vancouver was better than TFC last year and they proved it by going 11-13-10 in MLS while TFC were 5-21-8.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by mowe View Post
    Both of these statements are wrong.
    Neither of the statements are wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by mowe View Post
    The Canadian champion has not outperformed the US teams "on average". In 5 years the Canadian team made it to the knockout stage 2 times (40%). In those years the 4 US teams made it 8 times out of a possible 20 (also 40%). This confirms that they're on the same level.
    So we should be embarrased because they've performed no worse than higher ranked MLS teams?

    By simply looking at one part of this, you've over-simplified it. There's been a few attempts I've seen of people applying a UEFA-like coefficient to CONCACAF - and each one I've seen has put Canada ahead of the USA. For example see - http://www.soccermetrics.net/clublea...-10-27-version

    Quote Originally Posted by mowe View Post
    The Voyageurs Cup is not harder to win than making the MLS playoffs, and the stats you use to form this opinion are simplistic and irrelevant. It is MUCH easier to win a 4 game tournament than be consistently good for 34 games.
    That's just a complete abuse of statistics. If only 1/3 of eligible MLS teams can win the Voyageurs cup, and over half of MLS can make the play-offs, then it's pretty clear than over the long haul, that more Canadian MLS teams will make the play-offs, than will win the Voyageurs Cup. Think what will happen over 100-year period, rather than just thinking about last season.

    Personally, I'm looking forward to the Voyageurs Cup, given the remote chance we have of making the play-offs this year. Though I'd be surprised if we win again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    And Canadian media. You might not get much press making the playoffs, but you do get a lot when you make the MLS Cup final, even if you sneaked into the playoffs.

    TFC can't even be avg in the league. Winning the V Cup (as much as I love it), is like winning Johnstone's Paint Trophy. In reality, means very little.

    Last I checked the JPT didn't qualify you for Europe or any other competition.

    Also, fuck all the haters. I now and forever, will value the Voyageurs cup more than MLS. It's the only domestic title that TFC can win. I don't care that much about an american league but I'll take it as second to our domestic cup as there ins't much else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nfitz View Post
    Given that on average, the Canadian entry in the Champions League has outperformed the US entries ... not embarrassing at all!

    Not sure why one would think that the Voyageurs Cup is a joke. Far more enjoyable than a league game against Chivas ...
    I agree with Nick on that point. There is a level of intrigue and excitement in a CCL match that simply doesn't exist for us (currently) in the league. Assuming that we tread water this year in the league (and that is my assumption), just qualifying and playing in CCL would make for an interesting/exciting consolation prize. If we can find a way into this year's CCL, I'll be very, very pleased.

    That being said, I do agree that play-offs and Voyageurs Cup have to go hand in hand to make any of us feel that something is actually being accomplished ... unless we have a very good CCL run. That would mean a lot to me.
    Last edited by Blizzard; 02-19-2013 at 08:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nfitz View Post
    By simply looking at one part of this, you've over-simplified it. There's been a few attempts I've seen of people applying a UEFA-like coefficient to CONCACAF - and each one I've seen has put Canada ahead of the USA. For example see - http://www.soccermetrics.net/clublea...-10-27-version

    That's just a complete abuse of statistics. If only 1/3 of eligible MLS teams can win the Voyageurs cup, and over half of MLS can make the play-offs, then it's pretty clear than over the long haul, that more Canadian MLS teams will make the play-offs, than will win the Voyageurs Cup. Think what will happen over 100-year period, rather than just thinking about last season.

    Personally, I'm looking forward to the Voyageurs Cup, given the remote chance we have of making the play-offs this year. Though I'd be surprised if we win again.
    The biggest problem with that link is sample size. Given that Canada only has one team, results are greatly skewed by one year runs. Look at the coefficients year by year. Canada is lower than US except for the huge jump for the Impact's quarters run and TFC's semi's run. Meanwhile RSL's 3-2 loss in the final barely registers in 2010/11. What I'm saying is that Canadian teams are on the SAME LEVEL as US teams, which is obvious considering they play in the same league. I don't see how you can continue arguing that, all that link shows is that in CONCACAF there is Mexico, then everybody else. And if you read my post I said that only last year was a joke that TFC was shit but in the Champions League, exposing the "challenge" of winning the V-Cup.

    And I'll say it again, the stats you are using are irrelevant. The FACT is: It is much easier to win a 4 game tournament playing 2 teams than be top 10 playing 34 games against 18 teams. Just by degree of difficulty, reaching the MLS playoffs is harder. You already agree with this because like you said, TFC will likely miss the playoffs, but still has a decent chance at the Voyageurs Cup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nfitz View Post
    Given that on average, the Canadian entry in the Champions League has outperformed the US entries ... not embarrassing at all!
    hmmm, not sure why you would think that. There's only been 1 season where a Canadian club outdid their American counterpart:

    2008/09 - Montreal and Houston out in the same bracket round
    2009/10 - TFC crashed out in the prelims. KKKrew go on to the bracket round
    2010/11 - TFC out in group stages - RSL and KKKrew go on to next round
    2011/12 - TFC make it to Semifinals - sounders and LA out in prev round
    2012/13 - TFC out in first round - Sounders, LA and Houston on to the next round.

    Quote Originally Posted by nfitz View Post
    Not sure why one would think that the Voyageurs Cup is a joke. Far more enjoyable than a league game against Chivas ...
    And as I pointed out, harder to win than a play-off spot - on average, over the years.
    I can agree with the first point.

    The second one, I'd have to disagree. TFC have proven it's not that difficult to get into the CCL via the Voyagers Cup.
    In the past winning the Voyagers cup has meant beating teams a division lower than them. Although this past year TFC weren't fortunate enough to get that easy draw. This past year they had to win 2 and tie 2 to become champions. 4 games in a 1 month span and not all of them had to be wins.

    Getting a playoff spot means that a team has been at least average for 30+ games against teams of the same level. Much harder task that TFC have failed to do over and over again. Good teams are consistent; TFC are just lucky.

    I'd rather see the Voyagers cup championship go to the team that finishes highest in the league. Gives more value to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nfitz View Post
    Neither of the statements are wrong.

    So we should be embarrased because they've performed no worse than higher ranked MLS teams?

    By simply looking at one part of this, you've over-simplified it. There's been a few attempts I've seen of people applying a UEFA-like coefficient to CONCACAF - and each one I've seen has put Canada ahead of the USA. For example see - http://www.soccermetrics.net/clublea...-10-27-version

    That's just a complete abuse of statistics. If only 1/3 of eligible MLS teams can win the Voyageurs cup, and over half of MLS can make the play-offs, then it's pretty clear than over the long haul, that more Canadian MLS teams will make the play-offs, than will win the Voyageurs Cup. Think what will happen over 100-year period, rather than just thinking about last season.

    Personally, I'm looking forward to the Voyageurs Cup, given the remote chance we have of making the play-offs this year. Though I'd be surprised if we win again.
    Just saw this, I see where you are coming from, but to be honest I hate stats like this. Reminds me of FIFA rankings. In reality people don't care how well the average numbers look - they only see when a team being knocked out of a tournament. We don't cheer and boast to other people about these numbers, we cheer and boast about how well we've done in the tournament.

    At the end of the day, Canadian team rarely does better than Americans, that's what everyone sees and that's all people care about.

    I'm at the point where I won't even buy Voyager Cup tickets and I have a hard time going to the ones that are given to me for free. It's a fart in the wind compared to the actual CCL tournament, regular league games and playoff games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    hmmm, not sure why you would think that. There's only been 1 season where a Canadian club outdid their American counterpart:
    Because there are 4 US teams in it, not one.

    The primary point here is that there's no reason for you to be embarrassed about Canadian teams performance in the Champions League.

    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    At the end of the day, Canadian team rarely does better than Americans, that's what everyone sees and that's all people care about.
    At the end of the day, the Canadian entry most years has outperformed many, if not most of the US entries. You can't just compare the Canadian entry to the best of 4 US entries. And even if you do ... I'd hardly say the performance has been embarrassing.

    Canada and Puerto Rico (i.e. the Islanders) have both performed beyond expectations in the Champions League.
    Last edited by nfitz; 02-20-2013 at 12:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nfitz View Post
    Because there are 4 US teams in it, not one.

    The primary point here is that there's no reason for you to be embarrassed about Canadian teams performance in the Champions League.

    At the end of the day, the Canadian entry most years has outperformed many, if not most of the US entries. You can't just compare the Canadian entry to the best of 4 US entries. And even if you do ... I'd hardly say the performance has been embarrassing.

    Canada and Puerto Rico (i.e. the Islanders) have both performed beyond expectations in the Champions League.
    Back to my original line of thinking. It's not the CCL performance that is embarrassing, it's the fact that the Canadian champion is a last place team in it's league. Which makes the Voyagers Cup tournament a joke IMO. As I said in a previous post I would rather see this CCL spot go to the best Canadian team in the MLS, rather than a 4 game "tournamant". It would give more cred to the Voyagers cup IMO

    To speak specifically to TFC's performance in CCL - I would say their successes have been due to the fact that the team was built for CCL - not MLS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Back to my original line of thinking. It's not the CCL performance that is embarrassing, it's the fact that the Canadian champion is a last place team in it's league. Which makes the Voyagers Cup tournament a joke IMO.
    I fail to see how a competition among the top 4 teams in Canadian soccer could ever be considered a joke. It doesn't seem to be as much of a joke as the so-called "World Series" of baseball.

    The only thing I see embarrassing about it, is how a much worse MLS team from Canada has outperformed so many much better MLS teams ... but I would have to be supporting those teams to feel that embarrassment.

    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    As I said in a previous post I would rather see this CCL spot go to the best Canadian team in the MLS, rather than a 4 game "tournamant". It would give more cred to the Voyagers cup IMO
    However, that automatically eliminates any non-MLS Canadian teams - which is half the fun. Personally, I'm looking forward to the occasional Toronto-Ottawa game.

    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    To speak specifically to TFC's performance in CCL - I would say their successes have been due to the fact that the team was built for CCL - not MLS.
    We do seem to be more of a cup team, than a league team. We need to be both! On the bright side, if we do ever make it to the playoffs - that's when being a cup team would actually be in our advantage!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nfitz View Post
    However, that automatically eliminates any non-MLS Canadian teams - which is half the fun. Personally, I'm looking forward to the occasional Toronto-Ottawa game.
    Sure - get more teams involved, make it a proper tournament... Round of 16 knockout tournament - then it'll have more value IMO.

    But we don't enough teams to do that, so until then, have the best of MLS vs the best of NASL square off for the championship.
    Gives teams more of a reason to be competitive in their respective league and at the same time, awarding successful teams for their achievements.

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    Canada has enough teams to make the Voyageurs Cup a more competitive tournament.

    MLS (3 teams)
    NASL (2)
    CSL (14, excluding TFC & IMFC academies)
    USL Pro (5, excluding VWC U-23s)
    PCSL Premier Division (5)
    L1O (???)

    CSA could also open up the competition to amateur teams like the US Open Cup where I'm sure academies throughout the country would have their senior teams enter. The biggest issue with opening up the V Cup tourney is the same as Canadian league, travel and money.

    Opening rounds could be provincial qualifying with the winners from each province playing each other. Have 3 slots open to those provincial teams to enter the final stages vs the MLS/NASL sides. Question then becomes would clubs like Kamloops Heat or St. Catherines Roma Wolves be willing to put up the cash to go to Montreal or Vancouver to play?

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    CSA not going to do that as they seem to want to limit the cup to those who could possibly hold a CCL match. That the CCL stadium issue doesn't affect the US Open Cup is probably because there is always a local college stadium that could be used for anywhere in the States.

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    With respect to comparing US MLS teams in the CCL with Canadian MLS teams, the results are not comparable because the first round is now set up so that US and Mexican teams cannot meet. This leaves us having to meet, as it did last year, Mexican teams. Fair?

    For me, I like the Voyageurs Cup games.

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    V cup will be reserved to MLS and NASL in Canada. The CSA are planning something for the PDL teams. It will be separate from the provincial D3 development of leagues.
    Canada Mens Olympic Qualifiers vs El Sal Sat. March 21, Haita Tues. March 24, and Honduras Fri. March 27! Canada vs T&T Fri. March 27 4:30!
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    Quote Originally Posted by nfitz View Post
    Neither of the statements are wrong.

    So we should be embarrased because they've performed no worse than higher ranked MLS teams?

    By simply looking at one part of this, you've over-simplified it. There's been a few attempts I've seen of people applying a UEFA-like coefficient to CONCACAF - and each one I've seen has put Canada ahead of the USA. For example see - http://www.soccermetrics.net/clublea...-10-27-version.
    This! I have been saying this for the longest time. Before the CCL can be taken seriously, it must look into a proper coefficient system to determine how many teams from each country (based on the overall combined performance of teams representing that country in the competition over an X amount of years). Furthermore, which teams get seeded should be only based on how that specific team has performed in the competition historically. This whole US teams and Mexican teams get seeded is arbitrary with no statistics to prove it (though I agree with Mexico).

    Spain and England don't get 4 teams in the CL because they are "Spain and England." They do because their teams have accumulated more points over the years. Meanwhile, should say QPR miraculously win the EPL and thus qualify for CL, they'd be put in Pot 4 due to the fact they have virtually 0 for their co-efficient. Why there is no serious questioning of this format via the media makes me question the actual soccer knowledge of our so-called "experts."

 

 

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