View Poll Results: World class player or Pedigree Coach

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  • Player

    27 72.97%
  • Coach

    10 27.03%
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  1. #1
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    Default You play owner. Where would you splurge? Proven Quality Coach World Class player.

    Spawned from the new NYCFC thread news. It's pure daydream stuff for now, but what the hell.

    I don't believe TFC will ever be a successful club without either top quality proven coaching OR a world class, household name star player. This current model of low quality coaching and middle tier star players does not seem to work for TFC. Dero, Deguzman, Frings, Guevara, Koevermans etc.. have never been able to put this team over the top.

    So if you owned TFC and you could splurge in only one place would it be on a coach or on a player? If you say player then you have to at least believe that Toronto has a snowballs chance of hell in ever getting a household name brand world class player.

    With a second team in NY I don't see Toronto ever getting that household name brand player. RedBull will still own a team and they have serious cash. It's not like a second NY team will make RedBull roll over and die. So with LA and two NY teams being the likely dream destination for any world class player I don't think Toronto will ever get one.

    For that reason I vote for a coach. Push out the boat and try and get a Sigi Schmid pedigreed coach. Sure guys like Schmid are rare, but I think Toronto has a better chance of grabbing a quality coach then they do an elite player.

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    I can't vote in this. I don't think either a world class player OR world class coach would help a team where the majority of the players are 2-divisions in quality lower than the teams they are playing against. Are there further parameters, such as player quality level, that we are to assume when we vote?

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    neither; academy, and academy coaches

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    I mean, if it's a GUARANTEED world class player, or a GUARANTEED world class coach, I take the coach. It's been demonstrated that MLS teams can have success without needing a team of absolute world-beaters. On the other hand, it's also been demonstrated that having a big name in your lineup doesn't guarantee anything.

    Of course, the real question is if that "pedigree" coach is just a guy who is actually talented, and can adapt to the confines of managing in MLS -- or if he's a guy who was fortunate enough to get plum gigs, but can't work with a roster that isn't A1 First Rate through and through.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Why not both? Why not sign best players and coach? But if I had to pick one, then I would say player.

    Remember this:

    Toronto could have signed Nesta (big name player) last year (he wanted to sign with TFC and wouldn't cost a DP slot either), but Mariner and Co decided to go after Olof Mellberg who agreed to come to Toronto, but MLS blocked signing. Also, Michael Ballack was rumoured come to Toronto to join with Frings (another big name player). Of course, Del Piero wanted to come to MLS and there was rumours that Toronto was one of teams he was open to signing with. But in the end, he end up signing in Australia.

    Point is: Toronto isn't a bad place for famous players to come to play. History has shown that! (Remember Eusebio playing for Toronto?)

    Now with Tim Leiweke running MLSE, except TFC to make a big splash in the near future.

    As for a manager, I am assuming you're referring to a manager with North American winning experience. If that is the case, then that's going to be harder to get one because there isn't many of them out there.

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    Tony Pulis or Robert Huth. Decisions, decisions.

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    You act as if we have a choice. This is delusional. No proven coach would come here... only expecting to be fired in a year when there are not "immediate" results. Even if you rolled out the Brinks truck with millions you would never get Bruce Arena or Sigi Schmidt.

    Our only choice is to choose the best of the unproven coaches out there.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Initial B View Post
    I can't vote in this. I don't think either a world class player OR world class coach would help a team where the majority of the players are 2-divisions in quality lower than the teams they are playing against. Are there further parameters, such as player quality level, that we are to assume when we vote?
    Excellent point. People wanting immediate results pick a scapegoat and blame everything on that.

    People need to relax and expect zero this year.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    "You play owner.."

    There's your problem. And, I'd argue, one of the biggest problems supporter discussions have these days.

    This isn't Football Manager or Hattrick or FIFA or any of the other simulation games that most of us have played. Running a REAL football team is far more complex and far less straightforward. You don't make one decision in isolation of everything else that is going on.

    Sure, we can speculate.

    But these "do this or this and it will fix things" discussions are simplistic and underestimate the reality of what it takes to pull a team around from where we were just 5 months ago.

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    Neither is going to happen - a coach with pedigree won't come as explained above and there has never been a world class player in the MLS (my definition of World Class is a player who is currently one of the best players in the world in his position and would walk into the starting 11 of virtually any team in the world. MLS has never had anyone that fits the currently bit)

    That said - if we were magically given the choice of one or the other, coach for sure.

    A single player can only do so much. Drop even Messi or Ronaldo into a bad team like us, and they can only do so much. Sure they'd win us some games with individual brilliance, but I suspect we would still suck. World Class players tend to be World Class because they are surrounded by high quality teammates that allow them to excel.

    Sign Falcao? Great - lets see how he does in front our fantastic midfield that carves out so many chances. How about Xavi? I wonder how we'd do with him feeding balls into Weedman or Braun. On a tangent, I wonder how many people would be complaining that we signed a 33 year old if we announced Xavi as a DP

    Also - put a quality player out with poor coach, and you are not going to see them utilized properly

    The reason I choose coach is because they can actually shape the team in a way that could provide us with success over a sustained period. Of course, our proven coach would get sacked after a season...
    Last edited by brad; 05-24-2013 at 07:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    You act as if we have a choice. This is delusional. No proven coach would come here... only expecting to be fired in a year when there are not "immediate" results. Even if you rolled out the Brinks truck with millions you would never get Bruce Arena or Sigi Schmidt.

    Our only choice is to choose the best of the unproven coaches out there.
    Hold on. I'm not acting as anything. I'm putting out a hypothetical question of you being the owner of TFC, and what would you do.

    I've stated an opinion that with a second New York club there is a lower chance that Toronto will ever sign a true household name world class player. LA and NY1, NY2 are the logical landing points of any real household name star player.

    Since I believe we are cast off to a land of second tier star players I think we need to go after far more qualified coaches. I said a pedigree, not a world class coach, maybe I chose a poor word. I'm not talking Mourinho here. I'm talking about handing the keys and a big cheque to a qualified coach with a track record.

    The club went after Payne, so they clearly believe in better quality leadership. I think the next logical move is to go after a solid, qualified, winning coach. Someone with some level of pedigree.

    I'm not going after scapegoats, I don't think I ever have, so don't hang that shit on me. I'm stating something that to me is clear as crystal. NY1, NY2, LA will make the playoffs more than they don't and they will bring in star players to do it. Toronto's best logical move is to search far and wide for a true coach. If I owned the club it's what I would do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    I mean, if it's a GUARANTEED world class player, or a GUARANTEED world class coach, I take the coach. It's been demonstrated that MLS teams can have success without needing a team of absolute world-beaters. On the other hand, it's also been demonstrated that having a big name in your lineup doesn't guarantee anything.

    Of course, the real question is if that "pedigree" coach is just a guy who is actually talented, and can adapt to the confines of managing in MLS -- or if he's a guy who was fortunate enough to get plum gigs, but can't work with a roster that isn't A1 First Rate through and through.

    - Scott
    I'm with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by prizby View Post
    neither; academy, and academy coaches
    I love the sentiment, but I can't see this club ever moving on to be a contender with academy players and academy coaches. I think the academy building and supplying a stock of 2 or 3 strong bench players, maybe a starter or two would be amazing, but I can't ever see the whole club being run off of the academy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OgtheDim View Post
    "You play owner.."

    There's your problem. And, I'd argue, one of the biggest problems supporter discussions have these days.

    This isn't Football Manager or Hattrick or FIFA or any of the other simulation games that most of us have played. Running a REAL football team is far more complex and far less straightforward. You don't make one decision in isolation of everything else that is going on.

    Sure, we can speculate.

    But these "do this or this and it will fix things" discussions are simplistic and underestimate the reality of what it takes to pull a team around from where we were just 5 months ago.
    That's what I'm asking, speculate. Hell, cross over the two worlds, reality and speculation. I've stated things I believe are true and I've thrown in my guess as to how to fix them. I've never played a football manager game in my life.

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    Coach. It is a team game. A coach in this sport can do wonders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave67 View Post

    The club went after Payne, so they clearly believe in better quality leadership. I think the next logical move is to go after a solid, qualified, winning coach. Someone with some level of pedigree.
    Again, let me pose it as a question: What indication do you have (public statements, rumours, anything) that any successful coach has even considered TFC in the last few years? Name me one name of someone who has been successful within MLS (because foreign coaches have usually failed) would even consider TFC? Preki was the only coach we ever had with an MLS pedigree, and we're going back several years now.

    There were many such rumours the first 3 years. That ship has now sailed. The TFC brand is so damaged, you'd have to be certifiably insane to take the job if you have other options... and a good pedigreed MLS coach always has options. So we're stuck with rookie coaches, and as far as rookie coaches, Nelsen (despite his lack of badges... I have more badges than he does) is as good as any.

    So name me the coach and then I'll start considering if its a good move. Hypothetical excellent coaches theoretically lining up to take the job means nothing.

    There's always good players, however, who will sell themselves out to a struggling club like TFC. Getting them to care about actually trying hard to win is another thing, however. That's Payne's current challenge. Finding good players who actually care to make TFC a winning team. Find that and the wins will start coming. Changing the coach at this point would not solve anything.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 05-24-2013 at 10:20 AM.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Is there an option 3?

    I don't need a world-beater. I'd prefer a strong organization through and through. A solid coach with a solid team, supplemented by a strong academy slowly trickling in players that excel.

    One or two amazing individuals, surrounded by pylons, won't do a darn thing. You might score 1 or 2, but you'll concede 5.

    Pipe dream? Maybe. But it shouldn't be.

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    I would start by defining a philosophy of how the team will play. One that, you know, we actually stick to. Players and managers are interchangeable when the team has an established playing style.

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    What other MLS Club had a terrible record and no credibility in 2007... and was the laughing-stock of MLS? RSL. So they went with both a GM and a coach (Jason Kreis) with absolutely zero experience. When asked why he chose Kreis as coach, owner David Checketts said that he was impressed by Kreis' "character" (interestingly enough, the same thing that Nelsen impresses people with). During 2007 players were constantly coming and going as the club rebuilt. The record was terrible, by the end of 2007 RSL had only 6 wins. People said the same thing about Checketts that people are saying about TFC now, and there was zero indication that the club would ever budge from last place.

    Two years later, RSL won the MLS Cup.

    So patience is what is needed. We've already tried changing coaches every year. We've tried foreign coaches. We've tried an experienced MLS coach. Some time the changing needs to stop.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave67 View Post
    That's what I'm asking, speculate. Hell, cross over the two worlds, reality and speculation. I've stated things I believe are true and I've thrown in my guess as to how to fix them. I've never played a football manager game in my life.
    I reject the whole premise as you've created an artificial construct, leading to discussion points that have nothing to do with the reality that is TFC.

    Those two things can not be discussed in isolation of everything else that is going on. And that's an example of the problem with many supporter discussions - over simplistic solution based thinking.


    "If we only had....." solutions don't work.

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    Well said Oldtimer!

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    I do wonder, if we had stuck with the plan that Aron Winter was trying to implement, where might we be now? We may have lined up Caleb Porter to take over instead of Paul Mariner, who was the antithesis of everything Winter set out to do. Things could be looking different if we weren't changing our so-called playing style every six months.

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    Getting past the playing style thing, I'd be doing what TFC is doing now. I'd be trying to put in place a core of strong central midfielders (as Laba appears to be). Games are won and lost in the central mid as we all know. And a core of solid centre halves. You have both of those in place, and you'll have a solid team. They're obviously still looking for some of those pieces, and the right combination of guys, but they have exactly the right focus. Keep doing that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    Getting past the playing style thing, I'd be doing what TFC is doing now. I'd be trying to put in place a core of strong central midfielders (as Laba appears to be). Games are won and lost in the central mid as we all know. And a core of solid centre halves. You have both of those in place, and you'll have a solid team. They're obviously still looking for some of those pieces, and the right combination of guys, but they have exactly the right focus. Keep doing that.
    Once there is an established spine for the club with depth that mixes veteran experience, and young DP level talent the team can then turn its focus on upgrading the other key areas and results should follow. I think this sentiment has been here for a while on the board and it would be nice to see it followed through by the club and hopefully that is what sets the stage for sustainable success.

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    I don't think it is an either or thing. It should be some combination (to varying degrees) of the two. World class or household name doesn't guarantee anything. In MLS, the sum of the parts and getting everyone to click is critical.

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    Never mind. I think I've created one thread here in two years. Apparently the group is so numb they can't dream anymore. The thread is clearly stated as being hypothetical. Agitation about reality in a hypothetical thread is nuts. The announcement of a second NY team is what drew me in to post in the first place.

    Thanks to OLDTIMER for quickly and thoroughly derailing the thread. I never said anything at all about the current coach or anything to do with the past 7 years. I said that with the league setup in 2015 Toronto is going to have a hard time grabbing household name players for an opinion that I have already listed. For that reason if I owned this team I'd start searching for some coaches with at least a history of success in coaching somewhere.

    When you've lost the ability to even dream why enter a thread about HYPOTHETICAL questions?

    Back to lurking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave67 View Post
    Never mind. I think I've created one thread here in two years. Apparently the group is so numb they can't dream anymore. The thread is clearly stated as being hypothetical. Agitation about reality in a hypothetical thread is nuts. The announcement of a second NY team is what drew me in to post in the first place.

    Thanks to OLDTIMER for quickly and thoroughly derailing the thread. I never said anything at all about the current coach or anything to do with the past 7 years. I said that with the league setup in 2015 Toronto is going to have a hard time grabbing household name players for an opinion that I have already listed. For that reason if I owned this team I'd start searching for some coaches with at least a history of success in coaching somewhere.

    When you've lost the ability to even dream why enter a thread about HYPOTHETICAL questions?

    Back to lurking.
    My bad, I thought with a poll and everything you wanted opinions instead of daydreams. It's OK. If you're speaking only theoretically, I dream that with Koevs back, those ties and one-goal losses will turn into wins, TFC will now go on a tear and win the MLS Cup. Anything can happen, at least theoretically.

    Anyway, if you would asked for opinions, you got them. Football is, if nothing else, a game of opinions. Apparently (as of right now) 75% of those voting in your poll would prefer a big-name player. If you are going to put your opinion out there, not everyone will agree with you (although some will). As long as everyone is nice to each other, we love to have a good discussion.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 05-24-2013 at 02:34 PM.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    if we are to dream, i would like a hot big titted girl who makes a mean pot roast please
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

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    Without a good coach to make the team work around a great player, the team will never be successful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    if we are to dream, i would like a hot big titted girl who makes a mean pot roast please
    Hell.....I'd even just take the pot roast!

    Dave67, it's a great idea. I'll admit I took it too seriously.

    So to indulge you...I'd take a player. My favourite memories at BMO involve great players, not coaches. I saw Raul and Ronaldo score for Real, in what was Xabi Alonso's first-ever match with RM (his signing was announced a day before). I saw Benfica and David Luiz beat Celtic. I don't pay money to stare at the bench. There's nothing like being able to say "I saw that guy play." And to have a top player on TFC, that's something I'd love to brag about.

 

 

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