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  1. #1
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    Default What do the whitecaps have that TFC does not?

    Before I start, I would Like to say I have posted on these forums for awhile now, I have not trolled or any sort of negative comments towards TFC and the organization.

    The vancouver whitecaps right now have 17 points after another incredible victory against the 2nd best team in the MLS. (san jose). They seem to have a chemistry and talent level which is remarkable considering it's only there 2nd full MLS season.

    So my question is, What do the caps have that TFC do not, especially since VWC have been so impressive after two years.

    Thanks guys.
    Last edited by MrRobson; 05-05-2012 at 09:43 PM.

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    Better ownership.

    Same with Montreal.

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    A front office that has passion for/knows something about the sport for one thing.

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    Investing in defence.

    Whitecaps have a lot of the salary cap tied down in defence right now, but it's paid off big time for them this season so far. Best fullback pairing of Rochat and Lee Young Pyo (so far MLS Newcomer of the year IMO) and DeMerit and Bonjour have been solid as CBs. And Barry Robson due to join in July
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

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    So do you guys think the player personnel on TFC is good enough to make the playoffs? or just ownership?

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    A couple of years ago (before we hired Soccer Solutions, the consultant using Klinsmann as a front man) Paul James wrote an article that compared the Vancouver FO to Toronto's and pointed out how Vancouver had three experienced guys in the roles of president, GM and coach and TFC started with no president (and still doesn't have one) and Mo Johnston, a guy with about six games coaching experience as both coach and GM. The truth is, it's amazing TFC didn't go 0-8 or worse the first year. The problems we have now are because the team actually won a few games in the first three seasons so MLSE was able to continue without having to pay for experienced front office staff or scouting or much of anything. It was inevitabke that set-up would hit a wall and fall apart.

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    There was a long term winning tradition of professionalism with the VWC that not only invested the team with credibility but was considered important by the team and taken as a responsibility. TFC did not have that.

    And...ur President is a soccer man...........not always correct but a soccer man. And your new chair is miles above anybody TFC will get under current or the near future MLSE management.

    Too bad you have to play in a Dome on turf.

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    Listen. Move MLSE to any other mls franchise and you would have the same result. Lousy hockey, basketball, football clubs. This is not about Toronto, or Vancouver, or Columbus...it is a business organization that is entirely focussed on making a buck and nothing else matters.

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    Investing in their defence.
    Younger designated players.
    A stronger understanding of the way MLS works
    And, perhaps, most importantly:

    A STRONG CORE OF U.S. PLAYERS WITH MLS EXPERIENCE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmenJBX View Post

    A STRONG CORE OF U.S. PLAYERS WITH MLS EXPERIENCE.
    disagreed. Other than Cannon and DeMerit, Vancouver has a lot of players with MLS experience, but they aren't all Yanks

    edit: This is actually DeMerit's 2nd season in MLS
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

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    And, lets face it, its easier not to make TFC's mistakes when TFC goes first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    disagreed. Other than Cannon and DeMerit, Vancouver has a lot of players with MLS experience, but they aren't all Yanks

    edit: This is actually DeMerit's 2nd season in MLS
    I should rephrase - players brought up in the US system or playing with an MLS mindset.
    Ultimately, Vancouver is built like an MLS team - strong in the midfield, mix of american and european players, and not Canadian heavy.
    Just like Montreal is built the same.
    Toronto FC are not built that way - Toronto FC is built on rookies, academy players and aging DPs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmenJBX View Post
    I should rephrase - players brought up in the US system or playing with an MLS mindset.
    Ultimately, Vancouver is built like an MLS team - strong in the midfield, mix of american and european players, and not Canadian heavy.
    Just like Montreal is built the same.
    Toronto FC are not built that way - Toronto FC is built on rookies, academy players and aging DPs.
    We should have more long term success hopefully under these circumstances.

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    Cant be longterm thinking if we have Frings and Koevermans; they're too old to make a lasting impact on this team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    disagreed. Other than Cannon and DeMerit, Vancouver has a lot of players with MLS experience, but they aren't all Yanks

    edit: This is actually DeMerit's 2nd season in MLS
    True. Based on MLS roster rules, they can't all be Americans. However, they do have a starting 11 that is mixed with International and US players. Not one Canadian started for them again.

    I hate to harp on this same issue but it is fundamental. Our nation does not yet produce high quality MLS players. Vancouver's management team recognized this, fought to have the quota lowered and has built an MLS capable roster made up of experienced MLS players. They have used the "Domestic" roster spot on MLS capable/experienced Americans. They have also tapped into the international market quite well (Hassli and Le Toux as examples).

    From the top down, Vancouver has adopted a strategy and made resources available to be able to see it through. Put their execs up against the leadership of Tom Ansemli and you can then see why their starting 11 is better than ours. It's as simple as resource allocation and roster management. We simply don't do either well.

    We have 19 year old starters with 36 year old aging DPs as insurance.
    Last edited by Pookie; 05-05-2012 at 10:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    True. Based on MLS roster rules, they can't all be Americans. However, they do have a starting 11 that is mixed with International and US players. Not one Canadian started for them again.
    Which doesn't make much sense considering Tiebert would be a much better option than either Thorrington or Salgado. Yeah, they won which is good on them but it could've been much easier for them.

    For us, Dunfield is the only notable Canadian that brings the team down, and even he isn't bad all the time.
    Last edited by Macksam; 05-05-2012 at 10:39 PM.

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    Vancouver brought in established MLS scoring. We brought in defensive player who don't know the MLS. When you add depth at scoring then look at our injuries then it becomes pretty apparent IMO.

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    Vancouver and Montreal were both football clubs before they joined the mls, whereas we weren't, that's a point a lot of people are missing.

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    @macksam ^ perhaps but this is a key difference for them.

    He's 19 and has played 503 of their 810 total minutes which means he is great depth as they have someone in front of him that is capable of contributing to results (17 points so far). And he is the only Canadian on their roster to see any minutes in any MLS game thus far this season.

    Contrast that with one of our young Canadian stars like Morgan. He's a little older, 21, and has played 616 of our 720 minutes. Virtually every minute of every game with the exception of one. There is no depth. He's forced into a role that he might not be ready for because of the fact that we haven't identified anyone "Domestic" who can play in front of him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by burlington Red View Post
    Vancouver and Montreal were both football clubs before they joined the mls, whereas we weren't, that's a point a lot of people are missing.
    Yup, lets add Portland and Seattle to that list too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    @macksam ^ perhaps but this is a key difference for them.

    He's 19 and has played 503 of their 810 total minutes which means he is great depth as they have someone in front of him that is capable of contributing to results (17 points so far). And he is the only Canadian on their roster to see any minutes in any MLS game thus far this season.

    Contrast that with one of our young Canadian stars like Morgan. He's a little older, 21, and has played 616 of our 720 minutes. Virtually every minute of every game with the exception of one. There is no depth. He's forced into a role that he might not be ready for because of the fact that we haven't identified anyone "Domestic" who can play in front of him.
    Tiebert has not played at all this season for Vancouver.

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    Quote Originally Posted by burlington Red View Post
    Vancouver and Montreal were both football clubs before they joined the mls, whereas we weren't, that's a point a lot of people are missing.
    We are not missing that point at all. It was a factor in year one or two, but not now, not in year six. And, how do you explain TFC beating both of these teams in the ccl?

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    17 points.

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    An ownership group that's not completely apathetic.

    An executive structure that isn't total shit.

    A president, who despite being a total dick, knows soccer.

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    What do the whitecaps have that TFC does not? A fucking clue.

    Here in Toronto, they're Totally Fucking Clueless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by burlington Red View Post
    Vancouver and Montreal were both football clubs before they joined the mls, whereas we weren't, that's a point a lot of people are missing.

    Yeah but after 6 years you would think a competent person/organization would have gotten its shit together no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFCRegina View Post
    An ownership group that's not completely apathetic.

    An executive structure that isn't total shit.

    A president, who despite being a total dick, knows soccer.

    This is huge to. In a recent article written by Mary Ornsby of the Toronto Star on a PR piece about Larry Tanenbaum there was mention of the Leafs, the Raptors and even the Blue Jays who aren't part of Larry's portfolio, but not a single word about TFC.... like a neglected step child.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmenJBX View Post
    I should rephrase - players brought up in the US system or playing with an MLS mindset
    Which players are these exactly?

    Here is the lineup from today's match:

    Joe Cannon - american, 307 mls matches
    Young-Pyo Lee -korean 8 mls matches mostly played in europe
    Martin Bonjour - argintine 7 mls matches only ever played in south america
    Jay DeMerit - american 23 mls matches, american college, played in england almost all of his career
    Alain Rochat - swiss, 29 mls matches only played in europe
    Gershon Koffie - 20 year old ghanaian, 36 mls matches
    Jun Marques Davidson - japanese, 8 mls matches mostly played in japan
    Matt Watson - english moved to the US for college, 8 mls matches, mostly played in the nasl
    Sebastien Le Toux - french, developed in the Rennes academy, 96 mls matches
    Camilo Sanvezzo - brazilian, 38 mls matches played in brazil, malta and korea
    Omar Salgado - 18 year old american developed by a mexican team, 15 mls matches

    Subs used:
    John Thorrington - south african raised in the us, 70 mls matches, mostly played in england (was with man utd! zero apearacnes though)
    Eric Hassli - french, 34 mls matches, played in europe
    Davide Chiumiento - swiss, 26 mls matches, played in europe

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    Also in their mls existence, Vancouver has only had 3 of their total goals scored by Americans. Salgado, Salinas and Demerit all with 1 goal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest Ripoff View Post
    Which players are these exactly?

    Here is the lineup from today's match:

    Joe Cannon - american, 307 mls matches
    Young-Pyo Lee -korean 8 mls matches mostly played in europe
    Martin Bonjour - argintine 7 mls matches only ever played in south america
    Jay DeMerit - american 23 mls matches, american college, played in england almost all of his career
    Alain Rochat - swiss, 29 mls matches only played in europe
    Gershon Koffie - 20 year old ghanaian, 36 mls matches
    Jun Marques Davidson - japanese, 8 mls matches mostly played in japan
    Matt Watson - english moved to the US for college, 8 mls matches, mostly played in the nasl
    Sebastien Le Toux - french, developed in the Rennes academy, 96 mls matches
    Camilo Sanvezzo - brazilian, 38 mls matches played in brazil, malta and korea
    Omar Salgado - 18 year old american developed by a mexican team, 15 mls matches

    Subs used:
    John Thorrington - south african raised in the us, 70 mls matches, mostly played in england (was with man utd! zero apearacnes though)
    Eric Hassli - french, 34 mls matches, played in europe
    Davide Chiumiento - swiss, 26 mls matches, played in europe
    Only thing that is apparent is that Vancouver starting line up is littered with seasoned professionals.

    Once again: Men vs Boys

 

 

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