Good.Originally Posted by Oldtimer
Good.
Picking up Ledgerwood would be really nice! Why? Because he is an upgrade over dunfield in the CDM position. Another reason it provides cover for Eks in RB this means we could get rid of the other Hall Jeremy. Ledgerwood can also play RM very versatile player the kind you want in MLS. I've looked him up and his contract expires On Dec 31 2012 which means TFC can get him on a free. Overall my main reason I would like to see him join the squad is to get the worst defender on the team outta town. Essentially Hall can play the same position as Ledgerwood but Nick is an upgrade over Hall and they would cost about the same 150k range no more.
Alleluia
Hall is likely gone, and he plays wide midfield, not DM. Stinson looked pretty poor in preseason, and Mariner rated him behind Maund last season. He may develop into someone, but right now I don't consider him a solid option. Dunfield is just crap. There's no other way to put it. Mariner likes to play with two DMs. The only way you're going to get a box to box CM with good passing is if He's a hard tackling, hard working DM first off, and attacking and passing abilities are an added bonus. Those types of players are rare in MLS, and you need good scouts to find them. If Ledgerwood is cheap enough, as in less that 90k cap hit, we should take him. Otherwise, we should look for players who aren't currently under contract (duh)
Thank You!!! the CB fetish among many TFC fans is sickening. So many people think that all our problems would go away if we got a stud CB. They've been saying that since the beginning. We signed O'Dea at more than max hit, and when he can't stop the onslaught of goals (because there's no midfield cover), people talk about getting a stud CB to partner him! Honestly, I think we could sign Thiago Silva, and then when we keep conceding goals (because there's no midfield), people will call for another stud CB
Totally agree with you 100% you need the mid to cover and work with the def for our goals against to go down. What if Frings plays along side Darren and ledgerwood in the CDM that could look interesting. I strongly feel like Henry could do the job just get the right midfield in place.
Very good points! Except that the list of actual excuses that we've heard is probably 2-3 times longer than that...
Keep Frings: costs MLSE $2.5 million salary
Dump Frings: costs MLSE $2.5 million buyout plus $350K for new player
The real problem isn't the money, it's the fact that Frings' picture is on every piece of TFC promotional material, and that it's the sort of move that makes waves - not sure Payne wants to shine the klieglight on himself quite so hot, quite so early.
But it would be a ballsy thing to do.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
There are options. I wouldn't call him a bad midfielder by MLS standards, just slow. His vision and passing technique are exceptional; his stats looked worse last year than they should because he was the only midfielder trying anything. Someone pointed out that Dunfield had a higher passing percentage; I'd point out that Frings tried five times as many passes over 10 yards as Dunfield, and stats can be deceiving.
He has value. But he can't cover a lot of space, so we need him in a sit-back spot where he has time to read the play and adjust to cut off passing lanes. Can't do that with his limited wheels unless he's playing as a holder.
We can still play flat in the middle, but that would make us utterly dependent on wing play, because an advancing central midfielder with no support behind him causes problems.
Yeah but again, 2-3 regular MLS players (which aren't entirely easy to come by, clearly) aren't going to make us a champion in 2013. So why set $2,000,000 on fire? Just wait one bloody season and build the rest of the club (to then put us 2-3 players away and poof, we'll have the space without the buyout then).
I mean what opportunity? More minutes for Dunfield? With Mariner in charge, that's all you're getting. Stinson is there, but he's not ready for starter minutes and he's next in line after those 2.
If we had someone, like a Tiebert in Vancouver, a player who's got a ton of potential and is on the verge of cracking a starting XI, sure, okay I get it. But that's not Stinson and I'm as big of a Canadian player homer as anyone.
You're ignoring what you get by having him for a season.
But I digress, you think he brings nothing of that ilk so whatever.
They should give him a dozen games; if the speed is really hurting the team, offer him a player-assistant coach job, give him a chance to keep the contract but earn (some of) the money back, and help him get his licenses for coaching, while using him for late-game spot duty to nail down games, when other players legs are tired and his speed isn't an issue.
They're gonna have to pay him anyway, and it puts him in a good spot to take over one of Werder Bremen's youth teams.
Last edited by jloome; 12-13-2012 at 11:43 AM.
A strong midfield is less necessary with hoofball, that is why the focus is on a stud CB. However, in building for the long term we can assume that Mariner will be gone by the end of the season, and then we will need to have some talent in the mid.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Not really IMHO. They buy him out, he announces that he is retiring and no one without inside information is the wiser...
This is what I think will happen.
A strong midfield might not be necessary to hold possession and launch attacks, but it's still necessary to absorb the continuous onslaught of attacks that you will face when you constantly hand the ball back to the other team. two CBs can't deal with five opponents running at them from an open midfield completely unchallenged. Juninho's goal against us last year was a perfect example. The defenders were marking the strikers, and the midfielders were just standing on top of the box, and no one put any pressure on Juninho with the ball (Dunfield was in fact backing away from him, as he often does), so he took a shot at goal because there was no one even close enough to block it. Then everyone dismisses it as us being unlucky to have had a wonder goal scored on us, when in fact proper midfield play would have prevented it.
Agree that finding a couple of players is not easy, and agree that those players, if found would not make us champions. That is not the question. The question is would we be a better team with these players or Frings? Frings will play less this year.
Why do it now? To start attempting to build a core of players under Payne's vision as soon as possible. Teams take time to gel. The sooner we get a core group of players playing together (assuming the right core), the closer we become to actually being a championship team.
Opportunity cost - "The loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen".I mean what opportunity? More minutes for Dunfield? With Mariner in charge, that's all you're getting. Stinson is there, but he's not ready for starter minutes and he's next in line after those 2.
Meaning, what do we lose by keeping Frings. Directly one DP slot and $335k of cap space. What could that be used for if it were to become available? Players could be brought in for that salary - players that could potentially mean we see less of Dunfield. It could mean another DP if they want to go that route - potentially a young one with a smaller cap hit. If they don't plan on going the 3 DP route anytime soon, trade the slot of allocation and further bolster the team. These are just examples, but there are plenty of permutations that could make us a better team.
The point is - what do we get out of a slow, injury prone Frings this year vs other options. Frings minutes will be managed this year. He will spend a lot more time on the bench in an attempt to not wear him down. Either this works and we get some use out of him, or they wear him down and he goes out injured again. Either way, you have a good chunk of your cap tied up in a player that is not being heavily utilized. You can't get away with that in this league.
Again - it's not about the players we have, it's about what we could possibly get.If we had someone, like a Tiebert in Vancouver, a player who's got a ton of potential and is on the verge of cracking a starting XI, sure, okay I get it. But that's not Stinson and I'm as big of a Canadian player homer as anyone.
Per Kurtis Larson of the Sun. (See TFC Notes below for some interesting news)
The chances of Toronto FC selecting in Stage 2 of Major League Soccer’s re-entry draft Friday afternoon are “good,” according to Earl Cochrane, TFC’s director of team and player operations.
“There are some talented players remaining,” Cochrane told the Sun. “As long as they stay remaining … the chances are pretty good that we will do something on Friday.”
To clarify, the Reds will likely exercise the first pick in Friday’s re-entry draft unless they were planning to select one of Justin Mapp or Ike Opara.
Mapp, a midfielder with the Montreal Impact, was re-upped Wednesday by the Quebec outfit while Sporting KC received Opara in a trade with San Jose.
Assuming TFC wasn’t targeting one of the above names, a few players stick out as potential selections in Friday’s draft due to the club’s current needs and cap concerns.
- DF Julius James, $100,000 in 2012 with Columbus
- DF Hunter Freeman, $110,000 in 2012 with Colorado
- MF Jamie Smith, $159,000 in 2012 with Colorado
- DF Tyson Wahl, $86,000 in 2012 with Montreal
- MF Colin Clark, $110,000 in 2012 with Houston
- F Paulo Jr., $75,000 in 2012 with Salt Lake
- MF Luke Sassano, $83,000 in 2012 with KC
- MF John Thorrington, $170,000 in 2012 with Vancouver
Former TFC attacker Maicon Santos was the only player taken during last week’s opening stage of the MLS re-entry draft. The Brazilian was selected by the Chicago Fire in Stage 1, a stage that requires clubs to pick up player contracts without negotiation.
Stage 2 permits clubs to select out-of-contract players and renegotiate deals ahead of next season.
TFC NOTES
Cochrane told the Sun he’d be “surprised” if Eric Avila was with Toronto in 2013. The club and Avila simply can’t come to terms on a new deal … Freddy Hall is no longer with Toronto. The club’s No. 2 ‘keeper for much of 2012 recently had his option declined … The Reds are still negotiating potential deals with Andrew Wiedeman and Jeremy Hall, both of who are available in Friday’s re-entry draft unless Toronto agrees to terms with a pair of players who are heading into options years. Prevalent thought is that Toronto could still sign the pair if they agree to take a significant salary cut in 2013.
I'm pretty sure his contract runs until Dec 2013. (http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/ni...eler_8283.html)
The reason he's rumoured to be available is that his club failed to get promoted this season, and he wants to move on to a better league than Sweden's 2nd division.
His club is, apparently, asking a $300k transfer fee, which TFC supposedly scoffed at (rightfully so).
If TFC can get him on a cheap ($0 - $100k) transfer, then I wouldn't be against it.
But there are much better players to spend allocation $ on.
We should pick him, and then trade him for DeRo!
FFS just sign him at his 2012 salary! He's worth it.Cochrane told the Sun he’d be “surprised” if Eric Avila was with Toronto in 2013. The club and Avila simply can’t come to terms on a new deal … Freddy Hall is no longer with Toronto.
WHHAATTT??!!?? WHY??? Weideman is a pylon. Hall isn't horrible when played in a more advanced role, but I'm sure they see him as a RB. The thing that worries me is that when they go unselected in the draft, they'll sign the contracts we're offering them and we'll be stuck with them for an other seasonThe Reds are still negotiating potential deals with Andrew Wiedeman and Jeremy Hall
Accoring to Ives as part of the Deal yeasterday we swapped allocation spots with the timbers....
http://www.soccerbyives.net/2012/12/...-diskerud.html
that would give us the second spot right?
The money is already gone.
When you go to a movie, having paid 15 bucks, and 20 minutes in, you decide the movie is crap, what's the move? Leave, or stay and waste two hours?
Most people get this wrong.
You have to really believe Frings is still a good player to want to keep him. Not an OK player. Not "let's give it a few games" because the cap space isn't freed if you do that.
You are paying him either way.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
wow, that changes things a bit...
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I was just about to write the same thing. The issue with dumping Frings isn't the money, it's the perception.
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Actually, according to the update, Toronto keeps the #1 spot, but agrees not to select Diskerud. Seems like a gentlemanly agreement to me, unless you were Jonesing over Diskerud.
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
Diskerud sounds like exactly the kind of player we should be desperate to acquire. If he wouldn't come here, that's not good.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Sounds like he's following a coach. Not much we can do with that other than over pay
If we pass over him - do we keep our allocation spot for the next potential player?
Yes we do
True. Just getting super tired of this story line happening over and over again.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
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