How many games will Mariner have?

[v00d00daddy]

I would very much like to see Mariner gone, but it's not just the people on this board that thinks he should stay, it's the overwhelming media opinion, and also the view of many U-Sector members. So we need to allow for the fact that there is not a consensus yet and we shouldn't give Payne a hard time for keeping Mariner for now. Eventually everyone will realize the guy in shorts doesn't know what he is doing, and he'll be out the door.

I'd hope that Payne has seen plenty of Mariner while he was still with DC.

As for consensus....the media (for the most part) are so far up Mariners ass it's not funny. And I get that lots of supporters think Mariner should stay.

I just disagree. I disagree so vehemently that I decided not to renew.

I didn't mean to give Payne a hard time. He may still fire Mariner. But if he keeps him for 10-12 games and then fires him...well then he's a fool.

If Mariner starts the year he should finish it. Because his stretch last year is more than enough to know whether he is incapable of playing the type of game Payne wants to see.

It Payne thinks Mariner can do it...so be it. We have no choice but to trust his judgement. And we'll see what happens.

If Payne doesn't think Mariner can do it, fire his ass now.

[Canary10]

I'd hope that Payne has seen plenty of Mariner while he was still with DC.

As for consensus....the media (for the most part) are so far up Mariners ass it's not funny. And I get that lots of supporters think Mariner should stay.

I just disagree. I disagree so vehemently that I decided not to renew.

I didn't mean to give Payne a hard time. He may still fire Mariner. But if he keeps him for 10-12 games and then fires him...well then he's a fool.

If Mariner starts the year he should finish it. Because his stretch last year is more than enough to know whether he is incapable of playing the type of game Payne wants to see.

It Payne thinks Mariner can do it...so be it. We have no choice but to trust his judgement. And we'll see what happens.

If Payne doesn't think Mariner can do it, fire his ass now.

Look at it this way. The off-season, when player acquisition and building the team for next year, is the time when a GM and coach have to work the closest together. What do you think the chances are that Payne comes through that thinking, yeah, this is a guy I can work with?

[v00d00daddy]

Look at it this way. The off-season, when player acquisition and building the team for next year, is the time when a GM and coach have to work the closest together. What do you think the chances are that Payne comes through that thinking, yeah, this is a guy I can work with?

I'd guess slim and none.

But why even go through that process with Mariner.

As the new boss, Payne is more than entitled to can Mariner merely for the fact that he wants to put in his own guy and not a holdover.

Add Mariners dismal record last year....his poor player acquisitions and his preference for ugly football and I think you end up not needing to even sit down with the guy.

Pink slip his ass to Bermuda.

[Phil]

Oh I get it. My point is that mariner never should have been promoted but when he was, should have been fired at the end of the season.

It Payne is like some people on these boards and thinks Mariner should get the start of the season to prove himself....which (if he fails and he will) will end up having us have to fight from behind again and basically write off another season.

That's unacceptable.

Fire him now.

Hindsight, ya Mariner shouldn't have been put there IMO. I would guess with Payne being there and being upfront, its causing chaos with the rats in the ship. Lets see what shakes out...

[Canary10]

I'd guess slim and none.

But why even go through that process with Mariner.

As the new boss, Payne is more than entitled to can Mariner merely for the fact that he wants to put in his own guy and not a holdover.

Add Mariners dismal record last year....his poor player acquisitions and his preference for ugly football and I think you end up not needing to even sit down with the guy.

Pink slip his ass to Bermuda.

I think he needs a little time to figure out if Mariner can come in line with his vision and way of working. The next month ought to be interesting.

[T-boy]

I find it kinda....two faced of supporters....who last season were all fine with Winter staying, even though the results were pretty bad And now, same with Mariner, except some want him gone. Really, supporters should be consistent at least, shouldn't they? Winter was given the benefit of the doubt that if he was given a whole off season that he could impove things. Should Mariner not be given the same opportunity? Discuss?!

[Canary10]

I find it kinda....two faced of supporters....who last season were all fine with Winter staying, even though the results were pretty bad And now, same with Mariner, except some want him gone. Really, supporters should be consistent at least, shouldn't they? Winter was given the benefit of the doubt that if he was given a whole off season that he could impove things. Should Mariner not be given the same opportunity? Discuss?!

I thought from day 1 Mariner was a bad idea. He was a complete 180 in terms of what he was trying to do, and isn't a manager consistent with the four pillars. And he's never been a good coach anywhere he's been.

I do think now Payne should take some to figure it out.

[T-boy]

I thought from day 1 Mariner was a bad idea. He was a complete 180 in terms of what he was trying to do, and isn't a manager consistent with the four pillars. And he's never been a good coach anywhere he's been.

I do think now Payne should take some to figure it out.

For me personally, I didn't like winter OR Mariner as appointments. I thought Winter was a bad idea given he had no MLS experience (or any head coach experience come to that!). I also didn't like what he said in his first interviews, although other people DID seem to like what he said. But I shut up and and just waited to see what happened. I didn't initially like Mariner as I never think its a good idea to promose somebody internally. BUT, he started well, so I got behind him. But for both, they had very poor end of season's (Winter didn't win any of the last 5 games, I think it was?) and similar for Mariner, just a longer period of games. So really, we are mostly in the same position as we were last year.

I just think it gets to a time that we can either kick and scream and throw tantrums all the time, or just wait and see what happens. I get why Voodoo is so angry, but we just have to wait at this time. There's no real point in getting all worked up at this time of the year.

I have faith in Payne, and I don't think he's an idiot at all, I think he;s very sensible and has a good brain. If he thinks Mariner can do a job, I'll get behind that. I don't think there's much point in fighting against that at this time, just like there was no point in fighting against Winter staying on this time last year.

[Oldtimer]

I didn't mean to give Payne a hard time. He may still fire Mariner. But if he keeps him for 10-12 games and then fires him...well then he's a fool.

I followed DC in MLS before TFC. just ask any DC supporter, they respect Payne deeply... and he's anything but a fool.

[T-boy]

I followed DC in MLS before TFC. just ask any DC supporter, they respect Payne deeply... and he's anything but a fool.

Exactly Oldtimer. At this time, I think I would respect Payne if he stuck by Mariner. Payne isn't MoJo, or Anselmi - he seems to know what he's doing. His track record at DC is excellent, anyways. If he sticks by Mariner, and I respect Payne, then I'm not going to argue against it right now.

We, as fans, may think we know Mariner and that he's useless, but how can you possibly argue against a guy who's had a much experience in the MLS as Payne has?

[Canary10]

For me personally, I didn't like winter OR Mariner as appointments. I thought Winter was a bad idea given he had no MLS experience (or any head coach experience come to that!). I also didn't like what he said in his first interviews, although other people DID seem to like what he said. But I shut up and and just waited to see what happened. I didn't initially like Mariner as I never think its a good idea to promose somebody internally. BUT, he started well, so I got behind him. But for both, they had very poor end of season's (Winter didn't win any of the last 5 games, I think it was?) and similar for Mariner, just a longer period of games. So really, we are mostly in the same position as we were last year.

I just think it gets to a time that we can either kick and scream and throw tantrums all the time, or just wait and see what happens. I get why Voodoo is so angry, but we just have to wait at this time. There's no real point in getting all worked up at this time of the year.

I have faith in Payne, and I don't think he's an idiot at all, I think he;s very sensible and has a good brain. If he thinks Mariner can do a job, I'll get behind that. I don't think there's much point in fighting against that at this time, just like there was no point in fighting against Winter staying on this time last year.

That's pretty much how I feel about it too, although I do strongly think Mariner is the wrong guy. I'm just not prepared to hang my support on that now that Payne is there. Hiring a soccer knowledgeable President was, in my view, priority number one and everything else will flow from that. Let him do what he needs to do.

[T-boy]

That's pretty much how I feel about it too, although I do strongly think Mariner is the wrong guy. I'm just not prepared to hang my support on that now that Payne is there. Hiring a soccer knowledgeable President was, in my view, priority number one and everything else will flow from that. Let him do what he needs to do.

Did you renew your season tickets, canary?

[jloome]

I find it kinda....two faced of supporters....who last season were all fine with Winter staying, even though the results were pretty bad And now, same with Mariner, except some want him gone. Really, supporters should be consistent at least, shouldn't they? Winter was given the benefit of the doubt that if he was given a whole off season that he could impove things. Should Mariner not be given the same opportunity? Discuss?!

Seriously?

Are you just trolling, T-Boy, because you've had this debate with all of us a thousand fucking times now. This entire statement is full of exagerration to absurd proportion, which is generally regarded as a cheap debating stunt. It is UNCIVIL to keep making arguments that have already been closed as "agree to disagree." It just heats people up, particularly those of us who find it uncivil.

Discuss?

No, I'm not gonna discuss that. I'll tell you what: if someone sticks a fork in a light socket, and when it feesl really bad, makes up their mind to do it again, there's nothing sensible people can do. Because that's about as logical as rehashing these same tired, divisive and absurd arguments that Paul Mariner has somehow been hard done by, and then expecting any of us to wade into it with you. If you don't get it by now, well, it's your light socket. If you don't see where the differences and issues lie by now between abject reality and what this series of questions proposes, none of us can help you; you might as well be a kid with a fork, by a light socket.

Jesus tap dancing christ. I feel like old now, and it's only 8:38 am Alberta time. Thanks for that.

Here's a suggestion: let's close a thread on an argument has had us at each other's throat for about a month. I thought we already did that with the whole "outsider's perspective" thread.

[trane]

^ I support Payne, and if he leaves Mariner in I will be ok with it, but the "overwhelming media opinion" is simply wrong. Mariner had plenty of games to show his worth last year, and he proved that he is worth little. NOW people learn, and MAYBE he improves, but it is highly unlikely and the statistically better change of success is replacing him.

BUT again I am willing ot give Payne the benefit of the doubt, as he is someone with a proven track record with DC and has not given me any reason to distrust him with TFC. Despite no liking the fact that Mariner was hired, as I saw him as part of the problem, I also gave him the benefit of the doubt untill he proved me write.

[Canary10]

Did you renew your season tickets, canary?

Ha, yeah, I forgot we were discussing that. I did in the end right at the end of the deadline day. Decided they looked serious about hiring a President and that was enough of a step in the right direction to consider that part of my "three tests" for renewal satisfied.

[T-boy]

I'm not the one that's fighting tooth and nail about everything right now! I've done that before and its like beating your head against a brick wall! I think its time the people who are shouting and screaming for Mariner to go, to give it a little rest and sit back and see what happens. That's all I'm saying. It's Xmas time, drink some sherry and see what happens eh? That's all I'm saying! Voodoo is a passionate guy, obviously, but we had to go through all this last off season, so lets just go through it again. I just think its not the time to lose your shit over Mariner still being here or not.

[T-boy]

Ha, yeah, I forgot we were discussing that. I did in the end right at the end of the deadline day. Decided they looked serious about hiring a President and that was enough of a step in the right direction to consider that part of my "three tests" for renewal satisfied.

Cool, good for you. I like the fact that you had your "tests" that you wanted to see met, and you stuck by that. I hope for you that it pays off next season

[spark]

I find it kinda....two faced of supporters....who last season were all fine with Winter staying, even though the results were pretty bad And now, same with Mariner, except some want him gone. Really, supporters should be consistent at least, shouldn't they? Winter was given the benefit of the doubt that if he was given a whole off season that he could impove things. Should Mariner not be given the same opportunity? Discuss?!

The only reason I would have ever been ok with Winter staying on was because the season was over by May and knowing TFC they need 3 months just to do a draft of a job posting. It would have been an opportunity to (unfortunately) change things up, but take the time to do it right. Shaking up the entire club just so the team could still be crap IMO was a dumb move and caused more instability.

I don't think you can compare Winter to Mariner at all or their situations. Winter came in here in January and probably didn't have a clue what the football was really like here until he was standing on the sidelines in Vancouver. Mariner has been here for over a decade and has been in MLS since 2004 (?), not to mention he'd been with the club for a year and a half - he should not have required any time to figure things out or build, he knew the team, players etc ... and should have known what was needed to get the job done.

The one thing IMO we should be consistent with is demanding this team cannot be a place where you learn on the job (edit with the first team anyway or organization as a whole, obviously U17 or assistants, ok fine). Winter/Mariner both IMO are not qualified to be leading this club and their CVs do not reflect they are capable of turning around the worst team in the league to a contender. TFC has been like this since day one - a place where you are allowed to learn while we (supporters) pay for your education. I'm happy with Payne because finally there is someone there that we don't need to say "well we need to wait and see, maybe he'll work out, maybe he won't - we just don't know, we have to be patient!" - Payne has a tangible track record we can all pull from and say YES this guys has done this and been there, it makes sense for him to be our President. The head coach, IMO needs to be the same and I'm tired of waiting for something to happen from coaches that have never been able to prove it yet in their career. Again - TFC should be looking for someone with tangible records of success (IMO as always haha), that have actually lead senior teams to at the very least respectable positions in the table.

[Canary10]

Cool, good for you. I like the fact that you had your "tests" that you wanted to see met, and you stuck by that. I hope for you that it pays off next season

Luckily they actually did it, or I would have been really fucking pissed!

[T-boy]

The only reason I would have ever been ok with Winter staying on was because the season was over by May and knowing TFC they need 3 months just to do a draft of a job posting. It would have been an opportunity to (unfortunately) change things up, but take the time to do it right. Shaking up the entire club just so the team could still be crap IMO was a dumb move and caused more instability.

I don't think you can compare Winter to Mariner at all or their situations. Winter came in here in January and probably didn't have a clue what the football was really like here until he was standing on the sidelines in Vancouver. Mariner has been here for over a decade and has been in MLS since 2004 (?), not to mention he'd been with the club for a year and a half - he should not have required any time to figure things out or build, he knew the team, players etc ... and should have known what was needed to get the job done.

The one thing IMO we should be consistent with is demanding this team cannot be a place where you learn on the job (edit with the first team anyway or organization as a whole, obviously U17 or assistants, ok fine). Winter/Mariner both IMO are not qualified to be leading this club and their CVs do not reflect they are capable of turning around the worst team in the league to a contender. TFC has been like this since day one - a place where you are allowed to learn while we (supporters) pay for your education. I'm happy with Payne because finally there is someone there that we don't need to say "well we need to wait and see, maybe he'll work out, maybe he won't - we just don't know, we have to be patient!" - Payne has a tangible track record we can all pull from and say YES this guys has done this and been there, it makes sense for him to be our President. The head coach, IMO needs to be the same and I'm tired of waiting for something to happen from coaches that have never been able to prove it yet in their career. Again - TFC should be looking for someone with tangible records of success (IMO as always haha), that have actually lead senior teams to at the very least respectable positions in the table.

Excellent post and just the answer I was looking for.

[Phil]

The only reason I would have ever been ok with Winter staying on was because the season was over by May and knowing TFC they need 3 months just to do a draft of a job posting. It would have been an opportunity to (unfortunately) change things up, but take the time to do it right. Shaking up the entire club just so the team could still be crap IMO was a dumb move and caused more instability.

I don't think you can compare Winter to Mariner at all or their situations. Winter came in here in January and probably didn't have a clue what the football was really like here until he was standing on the sidelines in Vancouver. Mariner has been here for over a decade and has been in MLS since 2004 (?), not to mention he'd been with the club for a year and a half - he should not have required any time to figure things out or build, he knew the team, players etc ... and should have known what was needed to get the job done.

The one thing IMO we should be consistent with is demanding this team cannot be a place where you learn on the job (edit with the first team anyway or organization as a whole, obviously U17 or assistants, ok fine). Winter/Mariner both IMO are not qualified to be leading this club and their CVs do not reflect they are capable of turning around the worst team in the league to a contender. TFC has been like this since day one - a place where you are allowed to learn while we (supporters) pay for your education. I'm happy with Payne because finally there is someone there that we don't need to say "well we need to wait and see, maybe he'll work out, maybe he won't - we just don't know, we have to be patient!" - Payne has a tangible track record we can all pull from and say YES this guys has done this and been there, it makes sense for him to be our President. The head coach, IMO needs to be the same and I'm tired of waiting for something to happen from coaches that have never been able to prove it yet in their career. Again - TFC should be looking for someone with tangible records of success (IMO as always haha), that have actually lead senior teams to at the very least respectable positions in the table.

Nail on the head with this. Sums it up perfectly.

[v00d00daddy]

I have no problem with Payne deciding to keep Mariner.

I just expect that he make that decision based on the belief that Mariner is the man for the job, long term (at least the whole season).

I don't want to see Payne giving Mariner 10-12 games and then realizing he's not the guy.

If Payne knows this league as well as he does (and every indication is that he does) then he should know if Mariner is up to fulfilling his vision.

Fire him now or keep him for an entire season.

If Payne fires Mariner after a poor start (like some people have suggested) then Payne's very first assessment and decision as it pertains to TFC will have shown to be wrong.

And in the process we will likely have lost another season.

I'm not okay with that.

Progress is the only measuring stick for me. A movement upwards. Not the playoffs. Not a "competitive" team. All I wanna see is progress.

And Mariner leading this team at the start of the season only to fall short in the first third of the schedule (which is what I think will happen) and then getting fired is the furthest thing from progress that I can see.

I could be wrong. Payne may have absolute faith in Mariner which could translate into a great season. Who knows? If that happens I'll happily say I was wrong. Payne obviously knows what he's doing.

I just don't see TFC finding success with Mariner.

I think Mariner is garbage. He epitomizes everything I hate about football and if we, in Canada, ever wanted to depict the philosophical reasons why we suck at football, I'd say Mariner is a pretty good poster boy for the project.

[jloome]

I have no problem with Payne deciding to keep Mariner.

I just expect that he make that decision based on the belief that Mariner is the man for the job, long term (at least the whole season).

I don't want to see Payne giving Mariner 10-12 games and then realizing he's not the guy.

If Payne knows this league as well as he does (and every indication is that he does) then he should know if Mariner is up to fulfilling his vision.

Fire him now or keep him for an entire season.

If Payne fires Mariner after a poor start (like some people have suggested) then Payne's very first assessment and decision as it pertains to TFC will have shown to be wrong.

And in the process we will likely have lost another season.

I'm not okay with that.

Progress is the only measuring stick for me. A movement upwards. Not the playoffs. Not a "competitive" team. All I wanna see is progress.

And Mariner leading this team at the start of the season only to fall short in the first third of the schedule (which is what I think will happen) and then getting fired is the furthest thing from progress that I can see.

I could be wrong. Payne may have absolute faith in Mariner which could translate into a great season. Who knows? If that happens I'll happily say I was wrong. Payne obviously knows what he's doing.

I just don't see TFC finding success with Mariner.

I think Mariner is garbage. He epitomizes everything I hate about football and if we, in Canada, ever wanted to depict the philosophical reasons why we suck at football, I'd say Mariner is a pretty good poster boy for the project.

I agree with this ..... to 99%.

My 1% is a rule change: we consider that Payne isn't really treating Mariner as a head coach any more so much as a "field coach" -- in other words, a traditional Euro coach role, like Carver had.

My optimistic side says a good leader can look at a guy like Mariner and admit it's possible a great former striker simply doesn't, by default, have a good handling of other positions and the rest of the team, and that he might delegate the coaching roles more this year.

Payne knew who to bring in at D.C. and basically put a player with no coaching experience in charge of carrying that out in Olsen. Perhaps his real strength in finding players in D.C. is that he's tactically intelligent -- so he's the one who's actually making the tactical and roster decisions and Mariner is just directing the coaches, and probably only really handling the attackers.

In other words, Payne is more a "Manager" in the mold of an English manager than a "club president" who just runs interference with the front office. It makes more sense that that's the case from D.C., where he was reknowned for his lack of patience with politicians over the stadium issue, but was pretty much loved on the soccer side.

I could live with a quieter, less involved Paul Mariner who taught attackers how to actually hit the net. If that's what he's best at, maybe that's what we get. And he keeps the figurehead title in this league, where people see it differently than a "head coach" is seen in England, where people know it's the number two or three job.

[ag futbol]

I think Mariner is garbage. He epitomizes everything I hate about football and if we, in Canada, ever wanted to depict the philosophical reasons why we suck at football, I'd say Mariner is a pretty good poster boy for the project.

I think that puts it together

[TOBOR !]

I find it kinda....two faced of supporters....who last season were all fine with Winter staying, even though the results were pretty bad And now, same with Mariner, except some want him gone. Really, supporters should be consistent at least, shouldn't they? Winter was given the benefit of the doubt that if he was given a whole off season that he could impove things. Should Mariner not be given the same opportunity? Discuss?!

Really ? I'm one of those supporters. In Winter I saw a man trying to deploy a style/philosophy/culture (call it what you want) that was difficult to learn (apparently). The start of the 2012 season didn't match the end of 2011, or the CCL run. Something had to be wrong. Something that could be sorted out in time. We'd seen glimpses of what he was working towards.

Bringing in Judas Mariner and his tactics has moved us back to a pre-2007 state. Sure Winter was losing, but there was optimism and potential (at least as far as I was concerned). Mariner is just plain losing. Nothing about him makes me think he'll be able to do otherwise.

That's the difference in my mind, so it's not hipocrisy really, is it ?

[Richard]

Next year is already a lost season, making playoffs would be a mircle considering the turnaround needed which has never happened to this degree. The only way i see next year a succes is that a new coach gets the whole year to setup what they want, worst thing that could happen is PM being fired midseason. Im mostly pessemistic because of our 3 broken designated players, we have to much capspace tied up for the risk. We all no PM will get sacked, better to do it now and start the "rebuild" now.

[T-boy]

Really ? I'm one of those supporters. In Winter I saw a man trying to deploy a style/philosophy/culture (call it what you want) that was difficult to learn (apparently). The start of the 2012 season didn't match the end of 2011, or the CCL run. Something had to be wrong. Something that could be sorted out in time. We'd seen glimpses of what he was working towards.

Bringing in Judas Mariner and his tactics has moved us back to a pre-2007 state. Sure Winter was losing, but there was optimism and potential (at least as far as I was concerned). Mariner is just plain losing. Nothing about him makes me think he'll be able to do otherwise.

That's the difference in my mind, so it's not hipocrisy really, is it ?

Winter was kind of "losing with style", Mariner is just losing, right? Whether you, therefore, think that there is more optimism with Winter than Mariner is the question, I guess? But otherwise, if you looks at results over their whole tenure, there isn't too too much difference (there were some horrendous results under Winter like the Philly 6-2 at home, whereas most of Mariner's loses were by 1 goal, but there were many of them, just like with Winter too!). I am not optimistic at all about Mariner getting results. But at this point, I'm basically saying that as I ended up backing Winter the end of last season (even though I didn't like the guy) I'm going to equally do the same for Mariner now. I'll give the benefit of the doubt "for the time being", and trust Payne that he knows what he's doing. I'm not trying to be a troll, or incite any anger by the questions I'm asking....I'm just trying to ask the right questions! I equally don't like Mariner as much as anybody on this forum, but I'm trying to see past that right now, especially with Payne on board.

[Wull]

We could conceivably go 0-3 in the first 3 games released in the schedule. Does this change the guess for anyone?

[ag futbol]

ahaha, this thread is good for a laugh in retrospect.

[Ajax TFC]

Couldn't be happier to be wrong.

@nfitz's last lost: lol