Monday Nov 19th, 2012 6-7pm (ie 1st session) TFC Town Hall Meeting

[Rocket Robin]

Details of the Town Hall meeting of Toronto FC held
at the Rogers Club Room at BMO Field on Monday
November 19th, 2012 at 6:00pm. This was the first
of the four scheduled meetings to be held tonight
and Wednesday night.

The meeting was called to order at 6:10pm. Broadcaster
Dan Dunleavy was the MC introducing the participants
and taking the microphone around to those who signalled
that they had questions.

Dunleavy makes a joke about attending his first Neil
Young concert tonight (happening at the Air Canada
Centre) so he can get the meeting started.

On the stools at the front:
1. Paul Beirne
2. Paul Mariner
3. Earl Cochrane
4. Thomas Rongen

Dunleavy was going to get right into questions but Mariner
said he'd say a few things first.
- he welcomed us.
- he's excited to be part of this club.
- TFC is a massive club but needs better players.
- they've not abandoned the pillars of playing bright and
attractive soccer.
- the team will be entertaining.
- the preseason will be six weeks starting January 19th.

Man #1 asks: Does the system come first or the players?

Mariner: - says the players decide the system.
- we've got to use their strengths.
- there is room to maneuver. there's a salary cap and
three designated players.
- it's important to keep the DPs injury free.
- some players played too many minutes and too many games.
- there was too much learning on the job.
- we were burning out young players like Luis Silva who
should not have had to play 30 games.
- we should be like Houston who have 15 "go-to" guys.

Man #1 again asks: What will you do in the preseason?

Mariner: the players have been given off season programs.
- they must come back fit!
- they will be going to Florida after starting out at the
Downsview bubble.

Man #2 asks: What about the quote "we only need four players
to be competitive/attractive."?

Mariner: he likes our back five right now.
- he likes our DPs if they are healthy!
- we now need to fill our roster with blue collar guys.
- he's found some in Europe.

Cochrane: from a budget perspective, "Yes" they can fill
their roster of who they need.
- the team will be releasing some other players (besides
the one's they dismissed last week).
- they know they can't overspend.

Man #3 asks: What's the scouting organization for TFC like?

Mariner: we have the budget for scouts.
- down in Mexico when they played Santos Laguna he realized
that the country has 400 pro players out of a population
of millions. TFC can certainly afford 2nd League players
who are only making $20 or $30K.
- he wants English speakers in the back line so they can
communicate but up front it doesn't matter.
- in Central America they have a scout.
- for Europe/Scandanavia they have a scout (Earl Chapple sp?).
- TFC have good scouting contacts because of all the people
Mariner and Rongen know from their previous years working with
other teams.

Man #4 asks: Why was match fitness an issue last year?

Mariner: we should have been much fitter at the beginning of
the year.
- there was then not a lot of training time when the season
got started with them playing two games a week.
- conceding late goals was part of the consequences.

Man #5 asks: How are the new owners (ie Rogers/Bell) effecting
the team?

Beirne: there's been a shift between old owners saying "We never
say 'no' to a GM" to the new owners saying "One goal--more
aggressive."
- the new owners are pushing hard.

Mariner: they are behind us. "We hate losing".
- knows we have to win.

Man #6 asks: How are we keeping the core together?

Cochrane: Yes, we are in that position.
- we map in three, four, and five year locks.
- we factor in age and development.
- we know the new league feature will be less emphasis
on drafts and more on academy development.
- to sustain a team rather than the usual MLS feature of
teams failing and winning then failing because of budget
considerations and recouping costs.
- we must make player development viable as we know some
players will always be leaving.
- Academies will be involved in selling players to other
markets.

Man #7 asks: Milos Kocic (goalie) says he must be Number 1!

Mariner: Stefan Frei should have been #1 last year except for
the injury.
- hopefully when season starts you'll agree with my opinion
when we win.

Cochrane: Kocic is under contract.

Dunleavy notices that Rongen hasn't said anything and wants
him to talk about the Academy except if that's my question?
Why Yes, how timely!

Man #8 (wow it's me Rocket Robin wearing his CSL League
jacket to look more official!)
I say I want to talk about the new KIA Training Centre that
just opened up and ask "Is it yours?" but I say I will cut
them off as I want to outline three incidents in the last
year that brought that into doubt.
1. Academy scheduled to play Montreal Impact Academy on a
Friday but no one could get the lights to work so the game
was postponed and MIA had to drive on to their next game
in Niagara Fallls.
2. The game was rescheduled for the week between the end
of the regular season and the playoffs because it had
playoff implications and this time the field was being used
by four permit holders playing rec soccer and one playing
ultimate frisbee so we had to wait on the coldest night
of the year until they were off.
3. Rogers Community channel was going to broadcast four or
five TFCA games but backed off when they were told they
couldn't dig any holes at Downsview to sink their lightning
rod/grounding rods. Rogers settled on week old Mississauga
games to fill their time slot.

Rongen: The Academy is a vision of the club and is very
important.
- there will be 125 players in the Academy next year.
- there was a transition from operating partly at BMO to
moving to Downsview part way through the year.
- we now have our facilities functioning.
- field space will not be a problem.
- there will be less drafting and more home grown players.
- we are well ahead of other MLS teams in that regard.
- we will be the leaders of Canadian player development.
- we have 90% of the best players in the Greater Toronto area.
- the Academy will develop and sell players.
- we will operate from age 9 and up.

[Rocket Robin]

continued from last message:

Man #9 (maybe it was a descendent of Lee Van Cleef?): says
he has a Good, Bad, and Ugly summary:
Good as in best event: The game against Los Angeles at Rogers Centre.
Bad--the constant player turnover.
Ugly--from the Toronto Star article:
----the bad trade of Julian de Guzman for next to nothing and the MLS
league office shooting down TFC signing Swedish international
defender Melberg.
Why did TFC have to take a bullet for the league whereas Los Angeles
can get away with everything? Why does the league restrict TFC?

Mariner: Joao Plata is still our player.
- the fans must see that Plata is young but inconsistant.
- it was decided to send him back home to his home club to improve.
- he's coming back in January.
- internationals must be better than "1 in 6" because of international
limits. [I think he was referring to one great game in six total games].
- he can't comment on Melberg.

Cochrane: TFC have established a link with the league and will continue
to do that.
- he won't talk about the past.
- Plata was loaned out for two reasons--it was to continue to develop
AND it was also for financial (salary cap) reasons.

Mariner: while he was in Sweden last week everyone was talking about
Melberg and this incident has helped put TFC on the map over there
because Melberg is an icon in their country.

Beirne: the league wasn't prepared for TFC in 2007 and their fan success.
- TFC was an afterthought after paying their entry fee.
- MLS had a mandate to develop American soccer.
- their success helped bring the other Canadian teams into the league.
- the league has actually now begun to address Canadian development.
- the process has been an evolution that will change in time.

Man #10 asks: Plata. Why sign him then loan him back?

Cochrane: because we started 1-9.
- we didn't want to stagnate his development.
- we then could address problems in the defence with $$$.

Man #10 again: Why cut Academy grads but you didn't play the three of them? Why?
Now they've lost their NCAA eligibility.

Rongen: two players were not good enough. [Cordon and Makabuya]
- the previous regime was overzealous to sign them.
- Lindsay never came back to the level where he was two years ago before having
his injury.
- the team will not sign any Academy players before they can play first team football.
- they won't sign any Academy players this year.
- they will put Academy players in NCAA schools if it will help their development.
- we have enough 'young' players already (eg Silva, O'Dea, Henry, Morgan).

Mariner: we take care of our players even on these cut players.
- it is a cut throat business.

Cochrane: Lindsay cut was the hardest thing he's ever had to do.
- it was gut wrenching--(sniff).

Lady #11 asks: What is the relationship between MLS and CSA and TFC after the dismal
result of Canadian national team qualifying?

Cochrane: there are/will be five Canadian clubs and they have a pivotal role
in Canadian development.
- he's a personal friend of Holger Osiak and knew his plan.
- these teams will be drivers of youth development.
- we also need local clubs to buy in.
- we must be in lockstep to succeed.
- the relationship between MLS and CSA and TFC is good now.

Lady #11 again asks: What about the private Academies?

Rongen: the OSA have extablished for 2014 a long term player development
league rather than relying on local club teams.
- this league will take care of U13,U14,U15,U16 and have the best facilites and
best coaches etc.

Man #12 asks: Youth? You're encouraged by young players but fear then panic and will
not play them?

Mariner: we can only win so many games with 'kids'.
- young players will make mistakes.
- the young need to play games but maybe in other leagues.
- they will eventually come about.

Dunleavy has to stop the meeting (because there will be another group coming in soon).
- He says Wednesday's town hall will be broadcast live on the TFC website.
(Cochrane answers me later that it will probably be the late one)

The meetings over but I corner Paul Beirne to ask three questions:
1. about the Chicago game being bumped in the schedule and then Liverpool takes their spot.
- he answers that it was Chicago who asks for the rescheduling so they could play
an international and then the Liverpool game just fell into place.
[I came home and checked on the Chicago website and found that on that day they did
play Aston villa and lost 1-0].
2. What if TFC doesn't advance to the final of the Canadian Championship when they've
sold tickets to TWO championship games?
- they may end up playing somebody else but not on that midweek night OR they may
end up giving a refund.
3. Fifa dates last year cramped the schedule. This year?
- there will be some FIFA weeks this year too.
- Canada will be in the Gold Cup in July.

We got a TFC Academy notebook on our way out. It's blank.

Rocket Robin
robing@eol.ca

[gracos]

Definitely appreciate you posting the information, really want to see what TFC actually believes in

[jazzy]

Wonderful reporting ...........I.myself was under the weather so I couldn't make it............I worry about my local faves...Henry and Morgan....Mariner doesn't exactly seem like a mentor........

[AdamAM]

All this sounds so promising.. but then I think about how they ACTUALLY ran the club this year (actions speak louder than words) and there's 1 huge, glaring offence that sticks out to me here. When Mariner says "We can only win so many games with kids" WE DIDNT NEED TO WIN ANYMORE GAMES AFTER FUCKING JULY WE WERE OUT OF CONTENTION YET HE INSISTED ON PLAYING THE SAME FUCKING STARTING 11 OVER AND OVER AGAIN. We could have played kids and given them time in the big league, instead we were playing fucking Aaron Maund, Eckersley, Logan Emory all out of position, and we were playing both Hall's which might be some of the worst players I have ever seen at the 1st league level. I feel like I live in fucking North Korea, listening to all this propaganda that says one thing but they do the complete opposite. We will see next year how all this planning and scouting BS turn out, but for now, it's in one ear out the other for me.

[TFCwestcan]

Great recap, interesting stuff, there has been a ton of negativity around this club of late, of course the off season is the time when one can be positive about what comes next. Shame about Lindsey, some honest answers about the releases. I'll be very interested in who they bring in it sounds like they are journeymen at least.

[Joe Kool]

Thanks for the recap...good work.

[jloome]

Thanks for the recap...good work.

Yeah. Nothing in there to inspire any level of increased confidence; in fact, his assertion we need strong journeymen to round out the team is absolutely fucking terrifying. We need two competent, healthy central midfielders who can carry most of the season, to start. We need at least one more forward who doesn't miss three of four chances. We need a central defender pairing. We need a left winger, at the least, and probably more.

Jesus, what a shitshow. Journeymen. Hey! More Nathan Sturgis's (Sturgi?) to inspire confidence! Bring back Nick Garcia!

[Richard]

Actions speak louder than words. Just get the job done and if not bring in the next set of managers, except keep the philosophy this time.

[jloome]

http://www.wakingthered.com/2012/11/...sonal-timeline

Good blog on the meeting. Tellingly, those commenting note he used the same "1-in-6" comment about Reggie Lambe as Joao Plata.

[daner90]

Dunleavy was going to get right into questions but Mariner
said he'd say a few things first.
- he welcomed us.
- he's excited to be part of this club.
- TFC is a massive club but needs better players.
- they've not abandoned the pillars of playing bright and
attractive soccer.
- the team will be entertaining.
- the preseason will be six weeks starting January 19th.

Man #1 asks: Does the system come first or the players?

Mariner: - says the players decide the system.
- we've got to use their strengths.
- there is room to maneuver. there's a salary cap and
three designated players.
- it's important to keep the DPs injury free.
- some players played too many minutes and too many games.
- there was too much learning on the job.
- we were burning out young players like Luis Silva who
should not have had to play 30 games.
- we should be like Houston who have 15 "go-to" guys.

All of these things I have highlighted I believe are actually problems that Mariner has created with the way he has run the club in his time here.

He says we need better players but I thought it was his role in the club to bring in all the talent over the past 2 years and frankly he has not lived up to that.

The fact that Mariner has no system at this point is not shocking. I can't even begin to imagine how you run a team with such a lack of a clear direction but I believe it will run us to the bottom of the table again next season.

Everything else about players having to play too many games and too many minutes is the problem of the manager. Mariner's refusal to use any of the academy kids at the end of last season made no sense when he clearly felt we had a lack of the depth on the main team.

Our team doesn't stand a chance with this guy at the helm...

[trane]

^ I was going to point out much of the same.

TFC is a massive club-that needs better players? What exaclty makes TFC a massive club ???? In football to be considered a massive club you need to win on a consistant basis for years. Making money does not make a you a massive club, it makes you a rich club.

(The moment that I read Mariner say we need better players, I would have asked him, was that not your job?) This club is a joke, and it will stay a joke untill more of us do not take a stance and force massive change.

I am telling you if you love this club do not renew. I will not be politically correct, and pretend that I beleive there are two sides of the coing there are not. You either love this club, and want better and then you do not renew, or you love the idea of having a club, and being a "supporter" and you do renew. I am not going to get into a war over this, I have had this believe for two seasons now, and every day I read their shit reinforces my believe that I did right thing. VOTE FOR CHANGE BY NOT RENEWING.

[ag futbol]

First off, thank you to Rocket Robin for putting up that summary.
Second, what a load of crap coming from these people. As AdamAM basically said: “it all sounds great, then you think about how they actually managed the club in the past year and think WTF?”
Also, if you start drawing lines between the things they are saying it’s clear they have no idea what they are talking about.

• Cochrane: we know the new league feature will be less emphasis
  on drafts and more on academy development.
• Rogan: we have 90% of the best players in the Greater Toronto area
• the Academy will develop and sell players.
• there will be less drafting and more home grown players.
• they won't sign any Academy players this year.
• Mariner: Youth players make mistakes

Spoken like a guy who manages a border line league two club who is endlessly fighting to stop relegation to the conference national. “I want to play kids but they make too many mistakes”. Well no shit Sherlock, that’s because they are inexperienced. Unfortunately, the model you are perpetuating assures that those same players will stay inexperienced and never get the time they need to develop. It also means you’ll never give anyone a chance to prove themselves, and miss out on some great talent.
So I guess in summary I should believe that TFCA is preparing youth for the future, but they are going to leave a whack of age groups for the OSA to develop, not sign anyone to the first team, and not play them if they make mistakes.
Thank god we are so much better off by giving time to Aaron Maund, Jeremy Hall, and Andrew Wiedeman who are not in any way making mistakes, learning on the job, or technically inferior to the academy equivalents.

[Oldtimer]

Thanks for the summary, gives a really good idea of what went on.

[Belfast_Boy]

We're fucked!
Mariner is lost.

[T-boy]

I don't "buy" the stuff about Plata at all. He was VERY consistent in 2011, one of fthe most consistent players we had. So, that definitely isn't his issue. They are obviously covering up and making excuses for whatever has happened with Plata.

[brad]

I don't "buy" the stuff about Plata at all. He was VERY consistent in 2011, one of fthe most consistent players we had. So, that definitely isn't his issue. They are obviously covering up and making excuses for whatever has happened with Plata.

If it really went down the way Mariner said, what about all stuff that went on in the media at the time. Paul/Earl swearing up and down that Plata was going nowhere while he was appearing in a press conference with Quito (or whatever it was at the time). It really seemed like Plata moved himself.

That said, I though he was poor this year. Not uncommon for a player to struggle after a breakout year.

[__wowza]

Mariner: while he was in Sweden last week everyone was talking about
Melberg and this incident has helped put TFC on the map over there
because Melberg is an icon in their country.

great, so in sweden we're the club that screwed with their national hero?

[DangerRed]

Yikes. Scary times.

[TOBOR !]

<cribbed from other posts> :

TFC is a massive club but needs better players.

Does the system come first or the players?

the players decide the system - we've got to use their strengths.

First off, none of this drivel surprises me, nor should it you.

Now, these three lines tell me everything I already knew. Mariner said, on the renewal website, that he doesn't believe in having a set philosophy, or style. He says you need to be flexible, depending on the players you have : the players decide the system - we've got to use their strengths.

Well, this seems to be the reason, then, that we need better players. It's not because we're a massive club (because we're not), but rather it's because better players will play better football.

Better players playing better football means Mariner doesn't have to do any managing. No philosophy required.

Brilliant logic, Paul. Let's see how much Barcelona costs.

[CommradePolski]

Can we setup a @shittfcmanagementsays twitter account?

I have 0 faith in Mariner. Absolutely none.

[T-boy]

<cribbed from other posts> :



First off, none of this drivel surprises me, nor should it you.

Now, these three lines tell me everything I already knew. Mariner said, on the renewal website, that he doesn't believe in having a set philosophy, or style. He says you need to be flexible, depending on the players you have : the players decide the system - we've got to use their strengths.

Well, this seems to be the reason, then, that we need better players. It's not because we're a massive club (because we're not), but rather it's because better players will play better football.

Better players playing better football means Mariner doesn't have to do any managing. No philosophy required.

Brilliant logic, Paul. Let's see how much Barcelona costs.

I understand what your saying, but the truth of the matter is a GOOD manager is somewhere between Aron Winter's "all system" and Mariner's "players dictate system". Winter would have had a much better start at TFC if he simplified his system knowing that the players he had were not good enough to play anything more advanced. Meanwhile, Mariner has gone the opposite direction and won't commit to ANY style at all.

I'd love a manager who was between the two polar opposites. A manager who SAYS what they want to play, but then also says "but at the moment we don't have the players to play that style, so I'm going to have to change it up until I get those players into the club". To me, that makes the most sense.

I'd bet that Mariner DOES have a prefered style he wants to play, so I would like to hear what that is. If anybody can ask at the Wednesday meeting "In a perfect world, and with the players at your disposal, what would be your prefered formation and style of play for your team?".

[Yohan]

http://www.wakingthered.com/2012/11/...-earl-cochrane

Duncan Fletcher's impressions from 2nd meeting

[DangerRed]

<cribbed from other posts> :

First off, none of this drivel surprises me, nor should it you.

Now, these three lines tell me everything I already knew. Mariner said, on the renewal website, that he doesn't believe in having a set philosophy, or style. He says you need to be flexible, depending on the players you have : the players decide the system - we've got to use their strengths.

Well, this seems to be the reason, then, that we need better players. It's not because we're a massive club (because we're not), but rather it's because better players will play better football.

Better players playing better football means Mariner doesn't have to do any managing. No philosophy required.

Brilliant logic, Paul. Let's see how much Barcelona costs.

Let's also not overlook that Uncle Paul's brilliant "players decide the system" line gives him a perennial, never-exhausted scapegoat. Shit game? "Players decided to play in this system, so I adapted, and look at the bad result." Shit season? "All year I spent adapting the system to the players we have available, and unfortunately, the players weren't that great."

What a tit. Here's another quote worth keeping in mind:

"When the future's architectured/
By a carnival of idiots on show/
You better lie low..."

[TOBOR !]

I understand what your saying, but the truth of the matter is a GOOD manager is somewhere between Aron Winter's "all system" and Mariner's "players dictate system". Winter would have had a much better start at TFC if he simplified his system knowing that the players he had were not good enough to play anything more advanced. Meanwhile, Mariner has gone the opposite direction and won't commit to ANY style at all.

I'd love a manager who was between the two polar opposites. A manager who SAYS what they want to play, but then also says "but at the moment we don't have the players to play that style, so I'm going to have to change it up until I get those players into the club". To me, that makes the most sense.

I'd bet that Mariner DOES have a prefered style he wants to play, so I would like to hear what that is. If anybody can ask at the Wednesday meeting "In a perfect world, and with the players at your disposal, what would be your prefered formation and style of play for your team?".

Using Winter's route, I think we would have reached success, but would have to bear dire results for a bit (obviously), whereas with a manager who sits between Aron and Paul philosophically (to use your example), success would be reached, but it would take longer to get there (without having to reach such lows). Now, with Paul at the helm, I'd argue that success isn't coming any time soon at all, and what we'll have is a middling squad sitting at or near the playoff fringes. Neither destined for great heights, or lows. Enjoy.

[Code Red]

Can we setup a @shittfcmanagementsays twitter account?

I have 0 faith in Mariner. Absolutely none.

Amen brother.

Reading the town hall reviews only reaffirms my decision not to renew.

[Globetrotter]

I don't have comments about the content, but I do thank the poster for taking the time to write all of that and reporting it to us.

[ENBSports]

I think the most interesting question from last season is the Mellberg issue especially after the comish Garber lied during the MLS All-Star half-time show and said the league had nothing to do with it and that TFC opted out of the deal via their own choice. Thought Mellberg could of changed the culture of the club and make going into 2012 far more positive so whoever axed it, in my view, it greatly hurt the club.

[ag futbol]

Let's also not overlook that Uncle Paul's brilliant "players decide the system" line gives him a perennial, never-exhausted scapegoat. Shit game? "Players decided to play in this system, so I adapted, and look at the bad result." Shit season? "All year I spent adapting the system to the players we have available, and unfortunately, the players weren't that great."

But the forever odd thing about this line he uses is: did the players we had at our disposal really dictate the system we played?

I think this team was much better suited for a defensive minded 4-2-3-1 or some derivative there of compared to the style Paul Mariner insisted "was just using the players at his disposal". We were playing a flat 4-4-2 and featuring Aron Maund and Terry Dunfield as our central pairing, it was atrocious!

It also ignores that some of his player selection decisions were baffling. He'd play a central defender out of position and then play Eckersley at central defender. How is that players dictating the system? I think it was more like the system took into account our managers limited knowledge and ability to evaluated talent, as well as personal rivalries and small mindedness.

[T-boy]

Using Winter's route, I think we would have reached success, but would have to bear dire results for a bit (obviously), whereas with a manager who sits between Aron and Paul philosophically (to use your example), success would be reached, but it would take longer to get there (without having to reach such lows). Now, with Paul at the helm, I'd argue that success isn't coming any time soon at all, and what we'll have is a middling squad sitting at or near the playoff fringes. Neither destined for great heights, or lows. Enjoy.

I half agree. I don't think Winter's "this is what we are going to play, end of story" version of events was EVER going to work in the MLS. It needs a deep amount of resources to go that direction. The MLS has so many constrictions that it just wasn't ever going to work (in my opinion). IF it was going to reach success, it would have taken at least 5 years, if not more. And that 5 or more years, means that you have to develop your youth system so that ALL players coming through know the system inherently. It MAY have found success 'eventually', but that's a long time. I don't think ANY sports franchise in the world could go through that much development to get to the results it needs.

Mariner is on the total opposite end in many ways. He doesn't have a "philisaphy" like Winter did, so its not like he's set in stone. But that also means he's going to find it hard to look for players for a image of the team that doesn't exist. You HAVE to have some kind of philosaphy to know where you are going. That's why I'd prefer somebody BETWEEN Winter's way and Mariner's.

I never thought Winter's way was going to work in the MLS. And I equally don't think Mariner's way will work either!