The welterweight champion of the Strawman Boxing League.Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat
- Scott
Moderator
The welterweight champion of the Strawman Boxing League.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
Glad to see someone carries the torch of naming strawman.
That's all I'll say about that.
Moderator
When the concept actually applies, absolutely.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
your taking yourself too seriously, if only the FO displayed that type of zeal we might be actually getting somewhere.
Once again "if doesn't apply let it fly"
Moderator
I'm a moderator, asking you to refrain from some specific behaviour.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
hahahahhaha. I am reading this and it is funny to see supporters of a misrably failed team, TFC, take shots at two teams, Vancouver and Montreal who in year two and one, are far ahead of TFC, and will be for the forseable future. Vancouver made he playoffs in year two, when was the last time we made the playoffs?Montreal was a better team this year then we have ever been, in a better league and we can still make claims how they are going to implode.
This is about reality not about "loving" other teams, it is about the reality of wins and losses and reaching goals. TFC has done nothing in 7 years, and yet we cannot admit that other teams have better structures. Montreal's first year was a success, it put a very competitieve team together, and people are claiming it will implode and tourn into a Chivas? Come on. I was not aware that supporters were supposed to be part of the FO marketing arm.
Lets just start calling this team what it is Toronto Maple Leafes FC. Same ownership, same shit, from top to bottom.
Some people are taking this thread way too seriously. Just because TFC's management has been crap (and I'm in no way cheerleading the crap leadership of this crap franchise--as you well know), doesn't automatically mean that Montreal's is great. Just because Joey uses his connections to get some past-their-prime and should-be-retired Serie A players doesn't automatically mean that everything he does is great.
The fact that Joey has gone through 11 coaches in 10 years suggests major mismanagement more like Tom Anselmi does than genius management. I can't believe that a coach like Jesse Marsch, who has the potential to be a truly great coach, was let go by Saputo. To say that Montreal is "moving forward" is laughable.
Last edited by Oldtimer; 11-18-2012 at 08:21 AM.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
^Agreed. Montreal finished above us this season (and probably will next, as long as Mariner and Cochrane are in charge), and that's all it was/is, really. The whole premise of this entire thread, that Montreal is somehow doing a better job because they brought in a couple of triallists, is way off kilter. You have to question the long-term sustainability of Joey's "vision" based on a lot of the moves he's made. In 5 years, it will be interesting to see how far they've really progressed, if at all.
Moderator
But Toronto FC have been even worse, which through some tortured logic means all of TFC's fans aren't allowed to offer any opinion on Montreal (or any other team) other than slobbering admiration - even if your criticism comes with the tacit acknowledgement of our team's deep issues. That makes you part of the marketing department, even if it's the worst marketing department in history.
We have been permitted to sit here and trade witty and insightful barbs about how awful our team is for the next several months, or post news stories that demonstrate how much better every other team is but ours, and not one word more. Now run along and feel bad about yourself. Isn't sports awesome?
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
Yeah I realize that!, congratulations.
I can appreciate the dislike of this threads title but beyond that, where is this slobbering admiration you're talking about.
Montreal is better than us. But because we have some contrived rivalry with them, (we are irrelevant to all teams in MLS) we can't look at them and acknowledge that they're better in their first year than we've been in 6?
I also see a lot of "washed up Serie A players" talk and wonder how many of those washed up players would bump our players out of starting positions. I'd guess that pretty much all of them would. You know why? It's simple....they're better footballers. LOL
But I'll continue with the conspiracy theory I've held about TFC (and Canadian soccer in general for that matter) since day one.
If you replaced the Serie A players with guys like Giggs, Scholes and Sol Campbell and I doubt people would be talking as much shit about the Impact.
Montreal is better than us. So Jesse Marsch was let go. Big deal. So Saputo is a dummy. Big deal. So they have some old players. Big deal.
All that and they're still miles ahead of us.
Its not like Saputo is this super amazing owner, who has done nothing wrong. At the very least, you can say that he cares about his team. Which in the end is something TFC doesnt really have & is the center for all its problems.
How many other owners would promote from within after finishing dead last in the entire league? How many would keep a guy as president despite the fact that the guy has done nothing but help turn the franchise into a dysfunctional loser, with no real clear direction? Not anyone who cares about the results & actually has a vested interest in improving.
It's not obvious that you did, it looked like you had lost his point. At least to most of us around here.Yeah I realize that!, congratulations.
About Saputo, I love his passion. His meddling is stupid. His team is only better than TFC because TFC is so, so bad. The Impact are a bad team with disfunctional management. Why not hold up RSL, KC, or even DC?
Moderator
Why does all of this stuff have to be a mutually exclusive, one-or-the-other, choice? It isn't cognitively dissonant to say a) our team is and has been a brutal shitshow, b) Montreal were clearly and empirically better than we've been this year, but c) their FO antics still have some warning signs of a shitshow that may one day rival us?
You have to wallow non-stop in the fetid waters of what a pile of suck-ass TFC are, or risk casually being called a FO marketing stooge or apologist. That was my point.
This illustrates my point. Yeah, they are still currently a better team than ours. So what? You can have a community discussion about Montreal's problems without necessarily dropping the acknowledgement (or even needing to repeatedly mention), that we are worse. We spend 99% of the remaining time talking non-stop about our team's issues.All that and they're still miles ahead of us.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
It's a personal thing for me and it's simple. Montreal should NOT be better than us.
But since they are, I find it incredibly irritating that people can still sit there and say "yeah we suck. so what? Montreal sucks too".
And that irritates me for a couple of reasons:
1. I don't mind homerism....but when our team is as messed up as it is, there should be nobody getting their undies in a bunch when people point out that Montreal is better than us and we certainly shouldn't be critical of any other team. None.
2. People are critical of Montreal because of what exactly?
Because they have a meddling owner? So what? He has high expectations and has to deal with a fan base that will not come to games unless they feel they're being offered a decent product.
Because they fired their coach? So what? Montreal expected to make the playoffs this year. It didn't happen and they held somebody accountable. Imagine that.
Because they have old players? So what? They got a lot out of those players and those players are on much better salaries than anybody would have imagined.
So yes....it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive, one or the other choice. I just don't see the harm in TFC and their supporters using other MLS team (even middling ones) as a measuring stick when it comes to whether or not TFC is doing things right.
But for arguments sake here are a couple of thoughts that people can read independent of one another or together...makes no difference.
TFC was the worst team in this league last year and they've been terrible since day one and they've done nothing to improve this team. In fact, they've kept on a management team that has killed the golden goose of hype and attendance, and they promoted a terrible general manager to the position of head coach (where he has been even worse than he was at player acquisition)
Montreal did well for a first year team but were not satisfied with their results and have made changes in an attempt to be even better next year.
I, as a TFC supporter, have no business looking down my nose at any other team in this league. Not even Chivas. I don't care if it's Montreal or Vancouver, and I don't care how many old players they have or how many coaches they fire.
Will they finish above us? We played Montreal 5 times last seasons, with 2 wins, 2 draws, and a loss. These are the only Montreal games I saw last season (4 of them in person). They never looked like a good team ... and the one time they beat us in Montreal, I thought both teams looked like crap.
I don't see that Montreal would necessarily be any better than us next season - it was hard to see how they were any better than us this season based on the games I saw. Particularly with the Mayor McCheese interfering all the time.
At the same time ... do we really want a thread like this, which must give any UM02 members a thrill every time they read it?
They finished above us in the standings - by any measuring stick you use, points, wins, losses, goals scored, goals against, heck - even entertainment value - they were better than us this past season. I don't see how that can be disputed. True, head to head against them, we didn't do too badly. Now if we played them all the time? Perhaps it's too bad that we can't - we might actually have a decent season for once.
While I can somewhat see why people would be skeptical of what Montreal is going to do next season due to the old roster and meddling owner I think it’s mostly being overdone.
First, if we look at their track record in USL, it’s actually pretty damn good. Between 2000-2011 they qualified for the playoffs for eight consecutive years, won the playoffs twice, won supporters shield twice and tied for most points once. They beat TFC in the first year of the voyagers cup and had a good run in the CONCACAF CCL. He might be meddling, but if that’s the results: meddle away.
As for the old element of the roster, I think it’s heavily being compensated for by 1) having a lot of age on defense, where it isn’t as big of a deal 2) having a lot of depth / reasonable contracts. It could bite them in the ass to a certain degree, but so far they look relatively smart. I’d put money on them to make the playoffs for next season with their defensive depth. Forward spot and wide play needs to perform better, that’ll be the challenge for next season.
There also is an element of uncertainty to it, doing something with roster building we haven’t really seen in MLS, but that’s not to say it won’t work.
Well aslong as I was aware!, it means nothing to me, after that.
lets just agree to disagree, on the definition of anal.
This right here.
If you want to compare TFC to a team that is doing it right and moving forward - look at teams that have a tradition of being winners in the MLS - Houston, LA - in more recent years RSL, Seattle
Just because Montreal has brought in a couple of trail players or are playing friendlies against Italian reserves all without having a coach in place doesn't equate to "doing it right"
This is the same short sighted thinking that has gotten TFC to where it is today. Do people here forget how Nathan Sturgis came to TFC?
How does firing a manager after his first season equate to doing it right? Jason Kreis's first season record was far worse than Montreal's first season.
They didn't fire him and ended up being a playoff team ever since. They even won a championship in one of those years.
That's not the same thing at all. Montreal isn't looking for a general manager. They are looking for a coach. The people who build Montreal's team for last season are all still there.
Not every team in the world has the coach deciding on player aquisistion decisions.
You mean:
Nick De Santis (former coach, fired by being kicked upstairs) now "sporting director"
Matt Jordan (former GK, no managerial experience) now "director of soccer operations"
and the legendary Adam Braz (former TFC and Impact defender) now "Team Manager"
Yeah, sure looks fantastic
Now let me draw the paralells to TFC mismanagement:
(1) Vague job descriptions, nobody knows who does what
(2) A huge lack of experience in many of the top positions
(3) A former coach getting kicked upstairs, to interfere with the current coach's decisions
(4) More than 1 coach per season
(5) A meddlesome upper manager (in their case who is also the owner)
Gotta love that awesome Montreal Impact
Now point out to me where on their board the LA Galaxy fans are talking up how great Montreal is, and how they better watch out next year.
Last edited by Oldtimer; 11-19-2012 at 11:09 AM.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Hasn't De Santis been running the show there for years? Are TFC fans really going to argue that a team that was one of the best run A-League/USL/NASL teams and had one of the best MLS expansion seasons in the new era of the league is as poorly run as TFC?
Its laughable how defensive TFC fans are getting over this.
In their expansion season they had a better season than we've had in any of our 6 seasons.
As for meddlesome owners, I wonder what Dallas Maverick fans think of Mark Cuban. Maybe if we had this kind of impatience Mo Johnston would have been fired in 2008 instead of 2010, when he should have been fired.
Last edited by narduch; 11-19-2012 at 11:15 AM.
... and they fired the coach who brought them that good season. Well done!
...or maybe Adam Braz is responsible for that "great" season. Yes, that's it!
Last edited by Oldtimer; 11-19-2012 at 11:16 AM.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Did Marsch sign all the players? I doubt it.
What does Braz have to do with anything? It sounds like his job is similar to the role Earl Cochrane was suppose to have at TFC (ie. a freaking travel agent). Just because you may have hated him as a player adds nothing to your argument. It makes your arguement look stupid.
But keep clinging on to this if it makes you feel better.
They fired him because:
A) they have higher expectations than Marsch was able to deliver
B) they have players not suited to his coaching style.
Simple really. They got decent results last year and they want better this year
11 coaches in 10 years. After a while you stop blaming the coach and look at the man behind the curtain.
Yes, Montreal's shade of crap is less disgusting than TFC. They still missed the playoffs. Plus nobody has really answered the question as to why we should admire them instead of RSL.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Meanwhile TFC hopes against all hope that the idiots in charge will somehow turn things around, despite all the glaring signs that they have no clue what they are doing.
There are some who regard them as a possible backup. It's predictable those people would find it less unappealing to talk about our only rival so much.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
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