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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashcleaner View Post
    ^ I wouldn't give Mariner the same length of time that Winter got, but more than three quarters of a season. What's wrong with you? First I'm too eager to run guys out the door, now I want to keep them too long. Do you have anything else you want to say on my behalf? I'm just asking because you're tried to put your words in my mouth a few times already.

    I'm certainly unhappy with Mariner's performance as most people are, but I just gotta see how the off-season and the start of 2013 is gonna play out. Is that really as incredibly unreasonable as you seem to be implying?
    What worries me about this? We are giving the keys to the off season to someone that has shown no indication that they can source MLS talent. That same person is given the "MLS playoffs or your are out" ultimatum.

    I expect to see our future mortgaged for instant gratification - and I don't mean a playoff winning or top team, but a mediocre side attempting to sneak into the playoffs. I expect to see promising you players like Silva and Morgan dealt out for MLS vet's that can perform today. I expect draft picks to get dealt out for MLS players that can perform today.

    That is my main problem with keeping him. We are in a position where a competent manager can start to build a real team. Hassli can come off the books and we are down to two DP's. After next season we can be down to none - which gives us a huge amount of cap space to use on players that are not old and broken. We have a number of under performers on option years apparently that can be cleared out and replaced.

    So for me it's not just about yet another unsuccessful year under Mariner, it's the fact that he can easily screw us for the next several years by bringing in the wrong players.

    That said, I have no faith in this guy. Remember, this guy was supposed to be the MLS expert that would navigate complex system and bring us the talent that we need. So far we have seen him:
    • grossly overpay for British players
    • deal a promising draft pick out for an injured DP (in what I am guessing was a desperation move to go on a good short term run to make him look better and/or a directive from the brass to help with season seat sales)
    • sign a bunch of MLS rejects
    • a strange and more than slightly suspicious focus on players from Bermuda.
    • talking up under performing/mediocre players while calling our and marginalizing our few bright spots.
    • Benching players that could contribute giving them no reason and thereby giving them no motivation or ability to up their game and fight their way into the the first team.
    • Playing players out of position while the benched players are rotting away.
    • publically throwing players under the bus. Calling out Frings, saying he wouldn't have drafted Silva first, ect.


    What I haven't seen is this MLS expert do one deal within the MLS that made me think he actually knows how to work the league.

    I could go on and on, but this guy has shown nothing to indicate he should stay. Nothing.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    This is important to note/discuss for me. There was a considerable amount of aggro over this point during the 9 losses at the start of the year. I'd like to know how people stand on this in retrospect. Was Winter's team more entertaining? All the seething animosity about results at all costs have lead me here to this offseason where results didn't happen and we've done nothing to progress with any one style of play.
    I actually found Winters football boring and frustrating. Not because of what he was trying to accomplish, but because of how it was playing out. There were brief moments when things came together that were great to watch, but for the most part I saw a team struggling with the basics trying to play a system that they were not capable of playing. I just saw exceeding poor execution, and rank most of what I saw as boring as Prekiball.

    That said - the CL under Winter did provide some of our most entertaining matches. But I found the league painfully boring most of the time.

  3. #183
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    the more renewals, the less chance Mariner is booted

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonc View Post
    the more renewals, the less chance Mariner is booted
    It doesn't matter how many people renew. Whether it's 5 people or 15000 people. Mariner's job is not tied to season ticket renewals. You guys need to get that idea out of your head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    It doesn't matter how many people renew. Whether it's 5 people or 15000 people. Mariner's job is not tied to season ticket renewals. You guys need to get that idea out of your head.
    I disagree.

    If the renewals are bad enough, I could see a change made. Mariner is the most visible member of the front office. I could see him being sacrificed.

    We know they are already looking for his replacement (ie the Heath debacle).

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by narduch View Post
    I disagree.

    If the renewals are bad enough, I could see a change made. Mariner is the most visible member of the front office. I could see him being sacrificed.

    We know they are already looking for his replacement (ie the Heath debacle).
    At this point, Mariner is going nowhere, no matter what happens with Season Seat sales. They would have axed him already if that was going to be the plan. Right now he gets a free pass from Anselmi for his record last season. He'll be judged by how the team does in 2013. If it goes 0-14, he'll be out.

    Heath was not a replacement, but an assistant (replacing BDK). Speculation that he was a replacement came from an early tweet by a TFC reporter that was later clarified. He was never a replacement for Mr. Bootball.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    At this point, Mariner is going nowhere, no matter what happens with Season Seat sales. They would have axed him already if that was going to be the plan. Right now he gets a free pass from Anselmi for his record last season. He'll be judged by how the team does in 2013. If it goes 0-14, he'll be out.

    Heath was not a replacement, but an assistant (replacing BDK). Speculation that he was a replacement came from an early tweet by a TFC reporter that was later clarified. He was never a replacement for Mr. Bootball.
    The renewal deadline is November 23. I think everything is up in the air until that date passes.

    Heath was being signed as a future Mariner replacement.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by narduch View Post
    The renewal deadline is November 23. I think everything is up in the air until that date passes.

    Heath was being signed as a future Mariner replacement.
    It didn't mean the following season. Assistant coaches are often groomed for eventually taking over, it's not unusual.

    I don't believe anything is up in the air at all. It's wishful thinking to think that Mariner will be fired at this point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    It didn't mean the following season. Assistant coaches are often groomed for eventually taking over, it's not unusual.

    I don't believe anything is up in the air at all. It's wishful thinking to think that Mariner will be fired at this point.
    True,but he was promised head coach position from Cochrane,something that Mariner did not know about,until it was published in Orlando newspapers.

    Mariner is here to stay for the off season,regardless how renewals will go,if TFC goes 0-3 next year he should be fired on the spot,no 0-4 or 0-5 god forbid winless in 14.
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    Anyone who thinks either of Uncle Paul or the Earl Himself are getting tossed out before the new season starts, or that their jobs are tied to renewals, is dreaming. I have it on good authority that Paul will remain as the head of the club when the 2013 season starts, which isn't exactly news since the club has pretty much told you all the same thing. If they were going to axe him, they would've done so already rather than sending him to overpay for more British mediocrity (aka "scouting").

    If you're "renewing only with a management change," you should reconsider. There will not be one. You're either renewing with Mariner, or you're not.

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    I think Cochrane's job is fairly safe. He is known only on TFC forums.

    Mariner is the club's visible leader.

    As for Mariner 'scouting', I'm still convinced its really just a vacation.

    And considering this organizations track record, what better time to stab a guy in the back than when he's not around.

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    If Mariner's job is directly related to season ticket renewals, then this club is more fucked and hopless than we all could imagine.

    But to be honest, now that I think about it, I could imagine the club basing everything on renewals. His shitty results and poor style of football he has brought to the club doesn't seem to have an effect on his status here.

    But I really doubt it.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by DangerRed View Post
    Anyone who thinks either of Uncle Paul or the Earl Himself are getting tossed out before the new season starts, or that their jobs are tied to renewals, is dreaming. I have it on good authority that Paul will remain as the head of the club when the 2013 season starts, which isn't exactly news since the club has pretty much told you all the same thing. If they were going to axe him, they would've done so already rather than sending him to overpay for more British mediocrity (aka "scouting").

    If you're "renewing only with a management change," you should reconsider. There will not be one. You're either renewing with Mariner, or you're not.
    "If they were going to axe him, they would've done so already" -- Why? This is TFC. They don't have a fucking clue.

    But we do know that Anselmi has told multiple people on this board they're looking for an experienced leader, in response to requests for a club president.

    You think Tom Anselmi is going to tell a new prez "oh, but you have to keep the coach we've already got?"

    Mariner's future depends on whom they hire and what he wants. If he's competent, we'll have a new coach before next season starts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DangerRed View Post
    Anyone who thinks either of Uncle Paul or the Earl Himself are getting tossed out before the new season starts, or that their jobs are tied to renewals, is dreaming. I have it on good authority that Paul will remain as the head of the club when the 2013 season starts, which isn't exactly news since the club has pretty much told you all the same thing. If they were going to axe him, they would've done so already rather than sending him to overpay for more British mediocrity (aka "scouting").

    If you're "renewing only with a management change," you should reconsider. There will not be one. You're either renewing with Mariner, or you're not.
    What astounds me about this post is your accusation that people are dreaming if they don't trust Upper Management at their word. I don't doubt your confidence in your source. I doubt the people responsible for the decision to be incapable of changing their minds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashcleaner View Post
    This line of thinking will doom us. The playoffs should be an expectation every season, especially when you consider the fact that at the start of the season, every team has slightly more than a 50% chance of making them before a ball is even kicked.

    To be honest, I don't know why you would even consider this to be acceptable after you pointed out in your previous post other teams which had made significant improvements to their record after just one season.



    This is further proof that teams in MLS simply should not require extensive two or three year rebuilds!

    Turning TFC around should be no different. In fact, we must demand it to be so, as MLSE has so much more resources at it's disposal than any of those teams.
    I hear what you're saying. But the idea that we will have a turn around bigger than any of this year's really stretches credibility to me. A 19 point turnaround like DC's might be possible. A 30 point turnaround? To me that's on par with Winter saying at 0-9 that he guaranteed playoffs, and is lying to fans. I can't see the team that has never done anything right on the field all of a sudden achieving one of the biggest turnarounds in the history of MLS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    "If they were going to axe him, they would've done so already" -- Why? This is TFC. They don't have a fucking clue.

    But we do know that Anselmi has told multiple people on this board they're looking for an experienced leader, in response to requests for a club president.

    You think Tom Anselmi is going to tell a new prez "oh, but you have to keep the coach we've already got?"

    Mariner's future depends on whom they hire and what he wants. If he's competent, we'll have a new coach before next season starts.
    I can tell you it's going to be a huge surprise to a great many people in the FO if Paul Mariner is NOT the coach when the next season starts. They are looking to hire a president, yes. If they hire him in time, I predict he will say something along the lines of: "I will continue to rely on the depth of experience Paul brings to the table during his years in MLS management and the lessons learned as he navigated the club through its toughest, most challenging season ever." Mariner from that day on will be the inevitable millstone around the president's neck, and will serve the convenient scapegoat when the club looks to place blame for a shitty 2013 season this time next year.

    Anywho, what do I know. You've made your prediction and I've made mine. Time will tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    I hear what you're saying. But the idea that we will have a turn around bigger than any of this year's really stretches credibility to me. A 19 point turnaround like DC's might be possible. A 30 point turnaround? To me that's on par with Winter saying at 0-9 that he guaranteed playoffs, and is lying to fans. I can't see the team that has never done anything right on the field all of a sudden achieving one of the biggest turnarounds in the history of MLS.
    I think with new management it would be possible. Sure, a long shot, but possible.

    But under Mariner + Cochrane? No way. They will not finish above the current top 7 in the East. They will battle New England for dead last.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DangerRed View Post
    I can tell you it's going to be a huge surprise to a great many people in the FO if Paul Mariner is NOT the coach when the next season starts.
    This FO has had plenty of surprises over this very season, much less its history.

    Feel free to gloat if we still have Mariner as coach next year if it gives you any consolation.
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    This is an organization that has its ticket reps ask its fans what it thinks about Mariner. It also asks them what they would do if they were in management.

    There is no certainty when it comes to MLSE, other than corporate politics will always rule the day. Whatever happens will be whatever helps save Anselmi's ass.

    Hell, this whole "President" tangent only started because fans and some media (De Vos comes to mind) have been beating this drum for awhile.

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    Even if we bring in a president tomorrow, there is no guarantee that Mariner will be shipped out immediately. Unless the president has already been following TFC for some time now, there is no way anyone outside this organization truly knows how bad the situation is. For him to fire Cochrane and Mariner, he will have to actually witness their incompetence in action (which wouldn't take that long to see). Collangelo could have and many say should have, fired Sam Mitchell back in 2006 when he started. He didn't. Then Mitchell wins coach of the year and the Raptors have a huge turnaround forcing the contract extension of Mitchell. He wasn't fired until late 2008.

    Then again, I don't thin Mitchell was as incompetent at coaching in the NBA as Mariner is in MLS. But I just want to make a point that even when new upper management such as a president comes in, changes don't usually happen immediately. If Mariner was to be fired, it would have happened by now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PAOK17 View Post
    Even if we bring in a president tomorrow, there is no guarantee that Mariner will be shipped out immediately. Unless the president has already been following TFC for some time now, there is no way anyone outside this organization truly knows how bad the situation is. For him to fire Cochrane and Mariner, he will have to actually witness their incompetence in action (which wouldn't take that long to see). Collangelo could have and many say should have, fired Sam Mitchell back in 2006 when he started. He didn't. Then Mitchell wins coach of the year and the Raptors have a huge turnaround forcing the contract extension of Mitchell. He wasn't fired until late 2008.

    Then again, I don't thin Mitchell was as incompetent at coaching in the NBA as Mariner is in MLS. But I just want to make a point that even when new upper management such as a president comes in, changes don't usually happen immediately. If Mariner was to be fired, it would have happened by now.
    I know most people want Mariner gone and I'm on that list too.

    BUT, I'll be the devils advoate now.
    Would you want a President that would walk into the office and fire everyone right away? Wouldn't you want the individual to look at the organization and calmly and thoughtfully start to rebuild?
    knee jerk reactions and uninformed decisions have got us in this mess. The main reason we want a president is to guide the team for the future, not just the next season. if we start down the right road and hire a proper president I'd like them to bring vision, respect and thoughtfulness to MLSE and TFC.

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    If Mariner and Co. aren't booted before start of next season, then I am just going to ditch TFC for good. I can't support a club that is brain dead. Maybe I should just follow a new team in MLS and go couple of their games and when they come to BMO field to play against TFC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belfast_Boy View Post
    I know most people want Mariner gone and I'm on that list too.

    BUT, I'll be the devils advoate now.
    Would you want a President that would walk into the office and fire everyone right away? Wouldn't you want the individual to look at the organization and calmly and thoughtfully start to rebuild?
    knee jerk reactions and uninformed decisions have got us in this mess. The main reason we want a president is to guide the team for the future, not just the next season. if we start down the right road and hire a proper president I'd like them to bring vision, respect and thoughtfulness to MLSE and TFC.
    I completely agree the last thing we want to see is a new soccer exec slashing and burning right away. So, Mariner is the coach for 2013 which offers no hope whatsoever, it is what it is. Given that, here's the timeline I'd like to see ...

    Since next season is a lost cause, I will be just fine if Mariner gets the axe mid-season, as horrible as that always is. But it would allow our new football executive time to analyse and plan for the new direction, hire new people and have them in place before the 2013 summer transfer window. Get an early start on our 2014, our next meaningful season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    If Mariner and Co. aren't booted before start of next season, then I am just going to ditch TFC for good. I can't support a club that is brain dead. Maybe I should just follow a new team in MLS and go couple of their games and when they come to BMO field to play against TFC.
    Support Your Local.

    Otherwise, see ya!
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    Quote Originally Posted by lobo View Post
    I completely agree the last thing we want to see is a new soccer exec slashing and burning right away. So, Mariner is the coach for 2013 which offers no hope whatsoever, it is what it is. Given that, here's the timeline I'd like to see ...

    Since next season is a lost cause, I will be just fine if Mariner gets the axe mid-season, as horrible as that always is. But it would allow our new football executive time to analyse and plan for the new direction, hire new people and have them in place before the 2013 summer transfer window. Get an early start on our 2014, our next meaningful season.
    That's sounds all great if President was hired couple of days before the season start, but however, if president was hired couple of months before season opener, then president should have enough time to get rid of Mariner and Co and find their replacement that fits president vision. I highly doubt whoever president is doesn't know anything about TFC and it's problem. I am sure he/she has already know what's wrong with TFC and knows the solution of fixing TFC before being hired. I am sure ML$E will ask potential presidents when interviewing them their solution to fixing TFC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    Support Your Local.

    Otherwise, see ya!
    Brampton FTW!

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    Completely justified. Another MLS team?

    Fuck. That.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post



    Completely justified. Another MLS team?

    Fuck. That.
    Most likely, I will be rooting for Vancouver (I got a lot of family and friends in BC and I enjoy being in Vancouver whenever I am there) if TFC doesn't get it shit together. Also, don't be surprised to see a lot of Italians in this city rooting for Impact over TFC (I already know some of them).

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    If a Prezident will have to wait till mid next season to made coaching changes, MLSE would have issues selling STs again. I am sure they will want to avoid that, so business wise it is better to clean the house now.
    From TFC fan point of view, it is killing me not to be excited about upcoming season because Earl/Paul are still here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belfast_Boy View Post
    I know most people want Mariner gone and I'm on that list too.

    BUT, I'll be the devils advoate now.
    Would you want a President that would walk into the office and fire everyone right away? Wouldn't you want the individual to look at the organization and calmly and thoughtfully start to rebuild?
    knee jerk reactions and uninformed decisions have got us in this mess. The main reason we want a president is to guide the team for the future, not just the next season. if we start down the right road and hire a proper president I'd like them to bring vision, respect and thoughtfulness to MLSE and TFC.
    That's what I meant. A new president won't clean house right away. For him to do that he would have to already have a team already in mind to hire and must have been following our situation for some time to know what to do. Who actually does that much research for a job they don't even have?

    Mariner could only be fired by Anselmi right now and should have been by now. A president won't do it.

    But when he does get fired, because let's face it, he will, a nice two stick or banner could be "We told you so!"

 

 

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