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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by DichioTFC View Post
    That's funny, because at the time Fonda made his initial observation, nobody agreed with him either. I guess we'll see about it come next season.

    Btw, its *my fault* that people are attacking me, eh? Hilarious.
    Nav, I think the 12 Angry Men analogy is reversed. You're not the first guy to back Mariner, lots of people backed Mariner months ago. Not so much anymore. So, I suggest you might be one of the last guys in the room to see the light, so to speak. Just saying. Most of the rest of us have weighed the evidence and have no doubts, Mariner needs to go and better now than in mid-season next year.

    Of the few people willing to publicly declare their vote for Mariner, I really haven't seen much to support their positions. Usually, it is the stability argument, which is not a vote of confidence for Mariner. Followed by the 'he needs more time' argument. But almost always there is caution and reservation and acknowledgement of flaws and concerns. Honestly, I don't know how those concerns can be overlooked after what we have witnessed since Winter left the club. Why is it that some people think those concerns will just go away in 2013?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DichioTFC View Post
    That's funny, because at the time Fonda made his initial observation, nobody agreed with him either. I guess we'll see about it come next season.

    Btw, its *my fault* that people are attacking me, eh? Hilarious.
    Yes it is,when you come in "Mariner out" thread and troll Mariner in,what do you expect?
    Great love does not exist without joy and without great suffering ,that's why One club is worth only as much as its fans !


  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by DichioTFC View Post
    That's funny, because at the time Fonda made his initial observation, nobody agreed with him either. I guess we'll see about it come next season.

    Btw, its *my fault* that people are attacking me, eh? Hilarious.

    Dude, I was pissed that they kept Mariner, because I thought that he should have been fired with Winter. BUT once he was hired, I gave him a change at at first, depsite playing unattractive football, he got results, BUT then this team has showed me nothing, even less then Winter, in that with Winter I could at least see positives in terms of play ( not results and not enough defensively) but him nothing. ON TOP of that he has a press conference were he says he only has 7 MLS calibre players, well fuckyou very much Mariner, but were you in charge of bringin players to the club, or am I missing something. PLUS I always mantain, that a good manager gets SOME results out of what he has, and MAriner has done didly shit for long, long time.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by DichioTFC View Post
    That's funny, because at the time Fonda made his initial observation, nobody agreed with him either. I guess we'll see about it come next season.

    Btw, its *my fault* that people are attacking me, eh? Hilarious.
    You're really of the opinion that someone can't be at fault for being addressed uncivilly? That no one who is addressed in such a manner acted in such an obtuse fashion as to drive others to wit's end?

    Ask T-Boy about this conversation, because I had the same one with him about six weeks ago.

    By the way, bringing down other peoples' wrath on your own head doesn't make them right for being rude about it, either.
    Last edited by jloome; 11-01-2012 at 08:14 PM.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-boy View Post
    Plus, in my opinion, if we are to be a play-off contender, Johnson should be more of a depth player than a number one starter. He puts the effort in, but we need somebody with more quality than him as a starting 11 player. That leaves a genuine maybe 6 players who are definitely MLS starter quality?! (I would say 7, but you are doubling up Frei and Kocic as MLS starters, and we can only start one at a time).
    "PLAYOFFS?! Playoffs?! You're asking about playoffs?! Playoffs! I just want to win a game!"

    Edit: No relation to anything but through a typo I realized, ya'll should change the name of the Red Patch Boys to the Red Patch Buoys. Because you're the only thing keeping this team afloat through all the shit after shit after shit after shit after...
    Last edited by Waggy; 11-01-2012 at 07:00 PM.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-boy View Post
    I think its time that we (the Red Patch Boys, Registered Members of this forum, and TFC fans in general) made a statement that we all agree that Paul Mariner needs to be relieved of his responsibilities as head coach of TFC. I think we all agree that Mariner hasn't shown any form to justify continuing through to next season as manager. I was a "fan" of Mariner to start with, and I won't hide from that. However, even the hardest Mariner "fan' has to admit that he hasn't done anywhere near enough to justify being head coach into 2013. There doesn't need to be much conversation about this, just a total agreement from the RPB's that Mariner has to go. This needs to be a complete vote of "no confidence" from the RPB's and TFC fans.

    Please agree with a "Mariner Out" below so we can get numbers behind us to relieve him of the head coach job. I will start off below.
    Wow, quite the turn around for you t-boy.. Just 2 months ago you where mr raw raw mariner and saying what a great coach he was.. Glad you finally came around to see what many of us saw after 2 games.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaBandit View Post
    Wow, quite the turn around for you t-boy.. Just 2 months ago you where mr raw raw mariner and saying what a great coach he was.. Glad you finally came around to see what many of us saw after 2 games.
    I honestly still believe that the opinions on the forum were a little premature! People were judging Mariner when we was actually winning games! And there were protests when we were winning (such BAD timing IMO!). I think the fans should look at any NEW manager (whether he's new to the club, or promoted) with a fresh start. I don't think many fans did that with Mariner, and the opinion of his coaching wasn't based on his management, but due to his prior link to the team and what he had/had not done in his previous role.

    I started with a clean slate, judged what I saw. Liked what I saw to start with. But then after 14 games of nothing, changed my mind. That's pretty much the same as with Aron Winter actually, and Preki. For me, the tea lady can be promoted to head coach, and I'm not going to judge until she gets results/bad results.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-boy View Post
    I honestly still believe that the opinions on the forum were a little premature! People were judging Mariner when we was actually winning games! And there were protests when we were winning (such BAD timing IMO!). I think the fans should look at any NEW manager (whether he's new to the club, or promoted) with a fresh start. I don't think many fans did that with Mariner, and the opinion of his coaching wasn't based on his management, but due to his prior link to the team and what he had/had not done in his previous role.

    I started with a clean slate, judged what I saw. Liked what I saw to start with. But then after 14 games of nothing, changed my mind. That's pretty much the same as with Aron Winter actually, and Preki. For me, the tea lady can be promoted to head coach, and I'm not going to judge until she gets results/bad results.
    I would say this is true, within limits. The majority of people weren't going after Mariner after his four games because we went unbeaten. The same is true of Winter when he'd just led us to that draw against Santos. But yes, in both cases there were early adopters who were premature.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by trane View Post
    Dude, I was pissed that they kept Mariner, because I thought that he should have been fired with Winter. BUT once he was hired, I gave him a change at at first, depsite playing unattractive football, he got results, BUT then this team has showed me nothing, even less then Winter, in that with Winter I could at least see positives in terms of play ( not results and not enough defensively) but him nothing. ON TOP of that he has a press conference were he says he only has 7 MLS calibre players, well fuckyou very much Mariner, but were you in charge of bringin players to the club, or am I missing something. PLUS I always mantain, that a good manager gets SOME results out of what he has, and MAriner has done didly shit for long, long time.
    Hey, I even said I don't really care if he was duplicitous to get the job, if he keeps getting results.

    But he didn't just fail, he failed spectacularly. As one poster on the Sportsnet story about Winter pointed out, a lot of people had optimism even after the nine games, because we kept losing squeakers in the 80th minute, games we were at least in, and the team had some class, some cohesive possession and movement. Our defence just SUCKED.

    Under Mariner, the team was just comically bad; there were multiple games where we averaged UNDER 40% possession and less than a third of the game in the other half.

  10. #130
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    If Mariner loves this team he would quietly resign and join the circus. Sadly if he stays TFC will be the circus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gate7 View Post
    If Mariner loves this team he would quietly resign and join the circus. Sadly if he stays TFC will be the circus.
    TFC is already circus and Mariner is CLOWN,fact!
    Great love does not exist without joy and without great suffering ,that's why One club is worth only as much as its fans !


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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    I would say this is true, within limits. The majority of people weren't going after Mariner after his four games because we went unbeaten. The same is true of Winter when he'd just led us to that draw against Santos. But yes, in both cases there were early adopters who were premature.
    There were those that were looking at those four games and were noticing that although the points were there, there were some concerning stats.

    I know I took some flack for suggesting we save our praise as the teams they were playing were "cream puffs" ... Or least playing like them. New England was a prime example, a 2-2 road draw in which many would be happy on the surface. Except they had about 36% possession which when combined with declining possession in other matches raised flags for some. We even debated it extensively in threads.

    For some, the results were not exactly inspiring and warning signs, which appeared very early on were an indication that Mariners team would continually be out possessed, out shot and ultimately out scored over the long term.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaBandit View Post
    Glad you finally came around to see what many of us saw after 2 games.
    I came to my conclusion during Mariner's first game. I'm usually of the "give the coach 2-3 seasons" school, but based on my own youth coaching experience I saw Mariner make so many mistakes that good youth coaches wouldn't make that I realized right away he didn't know what he was doing, something that is inexcusable at the professional level.

    Mariner was a good player. Not all good players make good coaches, and some very mediocre players become very good coaches. The skill-set is different.
    "Of all the things in life that don't actually matter, football matters the most." - Stuart McKeown

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I came to my conclusion during Mariner's first game. I'm usually of the "give the coach 2-3 seasons" school, but based on my own youth coaching experience I saw Mariner make so many mistakes that good youth coaches wouldn't make that I realized right away he didn't know what he was doing, something that is inexcusable at the professional level.

    Mariner was a good player. Not all good players make good coaches, and some very mediocre players become very good coaches. The skill-set is different.
    For me it was a week before first game,not because I was told by people who are within MLS and ML$E that Mariner is only good to have a pint with.
    Remember the players interviews when Koev,and few other TFC players said that they were told by mariner "when under pressure,clear the ball",that was enough for me to know we will be Booting the ball back to our opponents.

    Hoofball 1 on1,something that even REP U7-U14 teams are being thought not to do.
    Great love does not exist without joy and without great suffering ,that's why One club is worth only as much as its fans !


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    I want to put the job Paul Mariner has in front of him next year into a bit of context. The three biggest point turn arounds this season over last were, in order:

    1. San Jose: went from 38 to 66 points = 28 point improvement
    2. D.C. United: went from 39 to 58 = 19 point improvement
    3. Vancouver: 28 to 43 points = 15 point improvement

    For Toronto to just make the playoffs next year, they would need a 30 point improvement over this year's results (based on the 2012 final table). In other words, Toronto would need a turnaround even bigger than San Jose's this year, just to make the playoffs.

    That's a massive task (for any manager). Does anyone honestly believe Paul Mariner is the guy to do that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post

    That's a massive task (for any manager). Does anyone honestly believe Paul Mariner is the guy to do that?
    ....

    "Of all the things in life that don't actually matter, football matters the most." - Stuart McKeown

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    I want to put the job Paul Mariner has in front of him next year into a bit of context. The three biggest point turn arounds this season over last were, in order:

    1. San Jose: went from 38 to 66 points = 28 point improvement
    2. D.C. United: went from 39 to 58 = 19 point improvement
    3. Vancouver: 28 to 43 points = 15 point improvement

    For Toronto to just make the playoffs next year, they would need a 30 point improvement over this year's results (based on the 2012 final table). In other words, Toronto would need a turnaround even bigger than San Jose's this year, just to make the playoffs.

    That's a massive task (for any manager). Does anyone honestly believe Paul Mariner is the guy to do that?
    We'll be lucky to get 30 points total..never mind increase by that many.
    We're way behind Vancouver and their bright manager. He's brought in proper players.

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    Do those of you who supported Mariner initially (or still do) attribute the 'run of decent results' to him directly, or do you suppose that this was a team that was coming out of it's funk ?

    I'm of the mindset that had Winter remained on the club would have maintained a respectable course for the remainder of the year and that the mid-season performance was in spite of Mariner, not because of him.

    All he needed was a few games and he turned the squad into the mess that it's in today.
    a ha ha heh he hoo.. ha

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOBOR THE GREAT ! View Post
    Do those of you who supported Mariner initially (or still do) attribute the 'run of decent results' to him directly, or do you suppose that this was a team that was coming out of it's funk ?

    I'm of the mindset that had Winter remained on the club would have maintained a respectable course for the remainder of the year and that the mid-season performance was in spite of Mariner, not because of him.

    All he needed was a few games and he turned the squad into the mess that it's in today.
    The limited sucess they had with him post Winter is traditionally called the 'dead cat bounce'.
    Road Trips: July 7 2007 Chicago, July 22nd 2007 Columbus, August 11 2007 NY, October 13 2007 LA, March 29 2008 Columbus, May 24th 2008 DC, May 26 2008 Montreal, June 28th 2008 NE, March 7-11-14 2009 Charleston, March 28 2009 Columbus, April 10 2010 New England, May 12 2010 Montreal, April 7 2012 Montreal, March 16 2013 Montreal , June 3 2014 Montreal, March 14 2015 Columbus

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    I think he's more likely to do a 30pt swing the other way.

    Yes, he'll get negative points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil View Post
    The limited sucess they had with him post Winter is traditionally called the 'dead cat bounce'.
    I don't even think it's that. If the team were truly crap, maybe, but they weren't. Not totally, and not then.

    Koevs was back. Things were looking up. We were still looking for a CB, but left to it I think Winter could have steered this ship around.

    Guys like Avila and Silva were getting work and Dunfield was coming off the bench.

    Mariner thinks he turned the club's fortunes and, but for some unfortunate injuries, has a competetive side.
    a ha ha heh he hoo.. ha

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOBOR THE GREAT ! View Post
    Do those of you who supported Mariner initially (or still do) attribute the 'run of decent results' to him directly, or do you suppose that this was a team that was coming out of it's funk ?

    I'm of the mindset that had Winter remained on the club would have maintained a respectable course for the remainder of the year and that the mid-season performance was in spite of Mariner, not because of him.

    All he needed was a few games and he turned the squad into the mess that it's in today.
    With stories emerging about Winter and how he treated his players I think it was doomed and would have stayed as bad as it was.
    He was naive and clueless.
    As for Mariner, it's all about him. He was a great player but now just loves the sound of his own voice.
    Look at him during a game. How can he command respect from his players when he looks and behaves as he does ?
    He's a joke and has no idea on how to build a real team.

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    I will NEVER spend another penny on this team as long as PM and EC are in control...The fact that PM thinks he's done a good job is BEYOND INSANITY....and anybody thinking he DESERVES more time can go and piss off.....I'm still so very angry that this CLOWN is still in charge of a team I used to love, and that MLSE has RUINED it....

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    TFC shouldn't be trying to sell the playoffs as a target in 2013, let alone putting the shackle of that target on whoever coaches TFC in 2012 (Paul Mariner or otherwise). Playoffs are two years away at a minimum. And if we need two years, they really need to decide if Mariner can build a team over time.

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    I'd love to know what the colour of the sky is in PM's world for him to think that he's the right person to lead this team forward. He does not have the track record anywhere. And to show up at media day in a hoodie, what does he think he is? He is so out of touch.

    SACK MARINER!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOBOR THE GREAT ! View Post
    I don't even think it's that. If the team were truly crap, maybe, but they weren't. Not totally, and not then.

    Koevs was back. Things were looking up. We were still looking for a CB, but left to it I think Winter could have steered this ship around.

    Guys like Avila and Silva were getting work and Dunfield was coming off the bench.

    Mariner thinks he turned the club's fortunes and, but for some unfortunate injuries, has a competetive side.
    The team was turning it's fortunes before winter was let go. That 4 game streak was due to what Winter did. Mariner only lit the fire under the players asses and things started to work.

    But then Mariner put his own spin on how the team should be playing and we went on a what..14 game winless streak was it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    TFC shouldn't be trying to sell the playoffs as a target in 2013, let alone putting the shackle of that target on whoever coaches TFC in 2012 (Paul Mariner or otherwise). Playoffs are two years away at a minimum. And if we need two years, they really need to decide if Mariner can build a team over time.
    this is it!

    we need them to build for the future. to set a direction and start moving forward. the playoff goal is not helping things.

    they beat the crap out of the golden goose. laying another egg is a year or two away if they start to treat it properly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    TFC shouldn't be trying to sell the playoffs as a target in 2013, let alone putting the shackle of that target on whoever coaches TFC in 2012 (Paul Mariner or otherwise). Playoffs are two years away at a minimum. And if we need two years, they really need to decide if Mariner can build a team over time.
    Which is exactly why it's ridiculous to keep him on at this point. I agree, playoffs are 2 years away at a minimum, so might as well get the new guy in now to implement his vision and bring his own guys in. Of course, if the new guy happens to be a Jimmy B or a Danny D, we really are no further ahead at all. Which makes the need for a Director of Football, President, or whatever you want to call it, from OUTSIDE the organization all the more essential, so he can appoint the person to the post. Even if TFC were to make the playoffs under Mariner next season (and I'd bet my mortgage they won't) it would be due to short-sighted decision making at the expense of making this club competitive in the long run, and we'd just be back at square one, if not square negative one, in 2014.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOBOR THE GREAT ! View Post
    Do those of you who supported Mariner initially (or still do) attribute the 'run of decent results' to him directly, or do you suppose that this was a team that was coming out of it's funk ?

    I'm of the mindset that had Winter remained on the club would have maintained a respectable course for the remainder of the year and that the mid-season performance was in spite of Mariner, not because of him.

    All he needed was a few games and he turned the squad into the mess that it's in today.
    What information do you have that would lead you to make that assumption? Winter's TFC record is out there for all to see, but you may need to look at it again: 64 games culminating in 18 wins, 21 draws, and 25 losses.

    There is absolutely nothing in those numbers that a person should take inspiration from. Sure, it's entirely plausible (I'd even say likely) that the club could have ended up with a better record at the end of the season with Winter at the helm , but realistically, how much higher in the standings do you think we could have gone? Obviously, Mariner kept the downward trend going and we ended this year dead last with a meager 23 points, but do you think we'd be playoff contenders if Aron stuck around? I highly doubt it.

    Sure, maybe having Winter stick around would have earned us more points. But how many more, realisitically could we expect? Ten? That would put us in second-last place ahead of New England. What about fifteen extra points? Well, that would put us ahead of Philadelphia at least. Still no playoffs and 4 points behind Montreal, though.

    So yeah, I think there is a good chance that Winter could have positioned us maybe as high as 17th, 16th, or possibly even 15th spot at the end of the season, but would that have been in any way considered a success for the team? Because I gotta tell you, we'd be lowering the bar pretty low if it was.
    Last edited by Cashcleaner; 11-03-2012 at 06:47 AM.
    Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOBOR THE GREAT ! View Post
    I don't even think it's that. If the team were truly crap, maybe, but they weren't. Not totally, and not then.

    Koevs was back. Things were looking up. We were still looking for a CB, but left to it I think Winter could have steered this ship around.

    Guys like Avila and Silva were getting work and Dunfield was coming off the bench.

    Mariner thinks he turned the club's fortunes and, but for some unfortunate injuries, has a competetive side.
    Don't forget the cream puffs

 

 

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