'Mariner Out' thread

[brad]

Just playing Devil's advocate, but what if Mariner does the improbable and gets TFC to the playoffs next year with a soul-sucking defensive style of play? Does that give him a free pass?

Question is too loaded IMHO. Are we still bad, but sneak in? Are we really good and make in comfortably? Was it done by mortgaging the future in order to make the playoffs? Does he build team that could grow into something more over the next few years?

So it's not just about what we do, it's about how we do it and how we are setup afterwards.

That said - assuming we are building towards being a good team over the next few years, and it's done with a "boring defensive" brand of football, I'd accept that. I'd prefer attacking flair and excitement, but would take the former.

[Belfast_Boy]

Only poor renewal numbers will get Mariner + Cochrane removed at this point, in my opinion.

If renewals are good, Anselmi just bought himself 6 more months until he has to make a tough decision.

that's already happened. they have great numbers this year.

[narduch]

that's already happened. they have great numbers this year.

Unless you have an inside source, we don't know that for sure.

I'm guess the initial blip was by people who loved the price drop and by some that had been waiting for weeks to renew anyways.

The deadline is November 23. I could see them taking further action if say they are only at 75% renewals by that date.

Besides, anything this club says should be taken with a grain of salt, including their renewal numbers. For all we know they are claiming they are high to stop people from relocating to cheaper seats.

[brad]

The problem I see is that Mariner/Earl have been given a playoffs next year or you are out ultimatum. That sets up the unfortunate short sighted scenario where they are going to be chasing instant gratification over long term success. I expect to see future draft picks along with promising young players being moved out for hardened MLS vets. There have been rumors of Morgan being shopped, I could see Silva getting moved as he was thrown under the bus yesterday and will have high trade value in the league.

My number one worry is not what the team accomplishes next year, but what these guys do to accomplish it. We could be screwed for a while to come.

And I don't entirely fault Paul and Earl here - this is what their corporate success parameters are. As long as ownership chases the short term profit, no long term vision will ever stick. I don't think a president will change that either...

[ryan]

thanks, gotta try something. and if it doesn't work we should keep on them until they are embarrassed into action.

I think Mariner will be out before then. but without a proper president we're going on the same ride again. one season at a time with no future.

I would put Mariner being gone at 5-10% at best.

Cochrane, 0%.

He's the man now and seems that those on the other side of the fence, media/suits/etc, look at him as being a "smart soccer guy" or whatever the fuck. He played CIS level soccer or whatever? Which would be like the depths of a pub league in any other developed footie nation on the planet? Then if you ask any long follower of Canadian footie, they'll be sure to note how Canadian footballers have little to no football smarts and is the core problem of the CMNT program.

Sigh.


Regardless, he's getting a shot and I'm doubtful it'll be just one year for him. He'll be here for 2+ because he's been pushed free of any blame prior, no doubt he's here for some time. He's considered totally fresh and free to fuck up a few times before they do anything about it. On top of that, removing him will do nothing to generate interest, nobody really knows of him or would care if he's gone. Firing Mariner would catch some attention tho, hence why I see a small chance of that happening.

[ryan]

that's already happened. they have great numbers this year.

Says who TFC? Them saying we have "great numbers" is likely a ploy to convince people that

a) Tickets might be harder to get than they realize
b) They don't want to be left out
c) Maybe their thinking the team is gonna suck might be wrong if everyone's buying in.



I'm skeptical at best things are going well.

[narduch]

I would put Mariner being gone at 5-10% at best.

Cochrane, 0%.

He's the man now and seems that those on the other side of the fence, media/suits/etc, look at him as being a "smart soccer guy" or whatever the fuck. He played CIS level soccer or whatever? Which would be like the depths of a pub league in any other developed footie nation on the planet? Then if you ask any long follower of Canadian footie, they'll be sure to note how Canadian footballers have little to no football smarts and is the core problem of the CMNT program.

Sigh.


Regardless, he's getting a shot and I'm doubtful it'll be just one year for him. He'll be here for 2+ because he's been pushed free of any blame prior, no doubt he's here for some time. He's considered totally fresh and free to fuck up a few times before they do anything about it. On top of that, removing him will do nothing to generate interest, nobody really knows of him or would care if he's gone. Firing Mariner would catch some attention tho, hence why I see a small chance of that happening.

I agree with you on Cochrane. He survives because outside of fan forums, the general fanbase doesn't even know who he is.

[Belfast_Boy]

Says who TFC? Them saying we have "great numbers" is likely a ploy to convince people that

a) Tickets might be harder to get than they realize
b) They don't want to be left out
c) Maybe their thinking the team is gonna suck might be wrong if everyone's buying in.



I'm skeptical at best things are going well.

Anselmi said it. I have a good bullshit detector and i think he was being honest. I work for a very large law firm so my skills in the lying arts are highly tuned.

[ryan]

Anselmi said it. I have a good bullshit detector and i think he was being honest. I work for a very large law firm so my skills in the lying arts are highly tuned.

I don't doubt your skills, but Anselmi didn't get to where he is and stay there, without being masterclass with bullshit too ya know. Could be either way I suppose. Also, if it was going poorly, do you think they'd admit to that to anyone?

[Belfast_Boy]

I don't doubt your skills, but Anselmi didn't get to where he is and stay there, without being masterclass with bullshit too ya know. Could be either way I suppose. Also, if it was going poorly, do you think they'd admit to that to anyone?

I agree. he's not an idiot.

I think they will have great renewals but the attendance will remain the same or worse. nobody will be too bothered about missing a game if the weather is crap and the team still sucks at these prices.

[Shakes McQueen]

I'm going to PM you on this.

I don't think it would quite have the same ring to it if I had written "as a user of this board". The majority of users of this board would recognise themselves as "members" of it, and the majority of people are users and not members. As this is in the general section, and not in the private members area, I would assume then, that its recognised as a public "membership" of the forum rather than member of the group statement. I hope that's ok?

It was only a minor quibble - no big deal. I'm glad you identify yourself with the community here; there was just some confusion about your choice of words. And thank you for the PM.

- Scott

[narduch]

I don't doubt your skills, but Anselmi didn't get to where he is and stay there, without being masterclass with bullshit too ya know. Could be either way I suppose. Also, if it was going poorly, do you think they'd admit to that to anyone?

I believe all Anselmi said was that renewals were going quicker than usual. That doesn't mean the final number is what they want to reach. Could just be a blip due to the marking of the price drop.

There are probably still a lot of SSH waiting for news on the team's management.

[T-boy]

It was only a minor quibble - no big deal. I'm glad you identify yourself with the community here; there was just some confusion about your choice of words. And thank you for the PM.

- Scott

No problem. Sorry about the word choice - maybe I should have said "TFC fans" rather than RPB's. But either way, I hope this thread gets read somehow by MLSE and they understand where the fans stand on Mariner as head coach.

I really wanted to post this thread - especially as I was a "fan" and backing Mariner to start with. I think its more poignant that a original defender of Mariner is now asking for him to be removed. The people on this forum all remember how I defended him as hard as I could through June and July. I hold my hands up and declare that I was wrong. He isn't the guy to take us forward. I've been accused of "moving the goalposts" on here in the past - but I want to say that I wanted Aron Winter removed after he took us 0-9 - I'm stucking with my opinion and Mariner should ALSO be removed for going 14 games without a win. I definitely don't want to be accused of moving any posts or being inconsistent on this. 14 games without a win is simply not good enough. For sure, I will take the excuses of having 2/3 of the salary injured. But in the end of the day, you still have to get results. 9 games was too long for Winter, and equally 9 plus games is too long for Mariner.

[Belfast_Boy]

who knows how to build an effigy?

[ryan]

who knows how to build an effigy?

Show up outside MLSE HQ.

Invite all Toronto sports fans.

Pile jerseys in the middle of the street.

Set them on fire.

[starter]

No problem. Sorry about the word choice - maybe I should have said "TFC fans" rather than RPB's. But either way, I hope this thread gets read somehow by MLSE and they understand where the fans stand on Mariner as head coach.

I really wanted to post this thread - especially as I was a "fan" and backing Mariner to start with. I think its more poignant that a original defender of Mariner is now asking for him to be removed. The people on this forum all remember how I defended him as hard as I could through June and July. I hold my hands up and declare that I was wrong. He isn't the guy to take us forward. I've been accused of "moving the goalposts" on here in the past - but I want to say that I wanted Aron Winter removed after he took us 0-9 - I'm stucking with my opinion and Mariner should ALSO be removed for going 14 games without a win. I definitely don't want to be accused of moving any posts or being inconsistent on this. 14 games without a win is simply not good enough. For sure, I will take the excuses of having 2/3 of the salary injured. But in the end of the day, you still have to get results. 9 games was too long for Winter, and equally 9 plus games is too long for Mariner.

It is nice of you to stick with your position to re-evaluate the manager at the season end. Cheers!

[Chevy]

The problem I see is that Mariner/Earl have been given a playoffs next year or you are out ultimatum. That sets up the unfortunate short sighted scenario where they are going to be chasing instant gratification over long term success. I expect to see future draft picks along with promising young players being moved out for hardened MLS vets. There have been rumors of Morgan being shopped, I could see Silva getting moved as he was thrown under the bus yesterday and will have high trade value in the league.

My number one worry is not what the team accomplishes next year, but what these guys do to accomplish it. We could be screwed for a while to come.

And I don't entirely fault Paul and Earl here - this is what their corporate success parameters are. As long as ownership chases the short term profit, no long term vision will ever stick. I don't think a president will change that either...

True. I wish the ultimatium would have had the addendum "...and provide a foundation for future success." As it stands now, I would expect a minor improvement next year, followed by a 2014 version of TFC even worse that this year's club. There is absolutely no incentive to look beyond the next 8 months or so.

This leaves me, as a supporter, in an unusual situation. Looking at the big picture here, I need to see my club perform poorly next season. Fun times at BMO.

[Belfast_Boy]

Show up outside MLSE HQ.

Invite all Toronto sports fans.

Pile jerseys in the middle of the street.

Set them on fire.

not far from my next plan. wanted to do a protest outside a raptors game.

[ryan]

not far from my next plan. wanted to do a protest outside a raptors game.

If you had 100 people involved, you'd get global attention IMO. Probably a footnote or backpage story, but media in US/UK/etc would mention it I'm sure. Would make them look awful and would be great for having something done.

Although I'm sure some people would get arrested for it, would have to be put together silently and the act itself done rather quickly so nobody can get nailed.

[T-boy]

It is nice of you to stick with your position to re-evaluate the manager at the season end. Cheers!

I absolutely did say I would, did, I?! And its a bitter pill to swallow when you know you've got it wrong

[Belfast_Boy]

If you had 100 people involved, you'd get global attention IMO. Probably a footnote or backpage story, but media in US/UK/etc would mention it I'm sure. Would make them look awful and would be great for having something done.

Although I'm sure some people would get arrested for it, would have to be put together silently and the act itself done rather quickly so nobody can get nailed.

yeah, we'd have to skip the fire bit. this is Canada. we'd protest then apologize afterwards.

[ryan]

yeah, we'd have to skip the fire bit. this is Canada. we'd protest then apologize afterwards.

hence why it'd get attention. Those Canadians must be really pissed if they decided to skip their poutine lunch and do something offensive for a change.

instead of mailing Tom letters, lets mail him our kits with attached notes "I don't need this anymore, thanks"

[Initial B]

Question is too loaded IMHO. Are we still bad, but sneak in? Are we really good and make in comfortably? Was it done by mortgaging the future in order to make the playoffs? Does he build team that could grow into something more over the next few years?

I was thinking if Mariner actually signs the right players and chooses the right draft prospects without Mortgaging the future - basically, gets us on the right track. Do we keep him regardless of the other antics he commits on the sidelines and Press Conferences?

Regardless, of whether or not Mariner can do it, I don't like his character and that's why I want to see him gone. I want to see Cochrane gone because he has been here the longest and is the most culpable for this state of affairs.

[jloome]

I absolutely did say I would, did, I?! And its a bitter pill to swallow when you know you've got it wrong

Too bitter for many, so good on you for the humility. More people need to change their minds; given that most people base their perspectives on belief over investigation, one has to assume it would lead to significant flip flopping and less general mistake making.

[brad]

I was thinking if Mariner actually signs the right players and chooses the right draft prospects without Mortgaging the future - basically, gets us on the right track. Do we keep him regardless of the other antics he commits on the sidelines and Press

Yes. If he turn the team around and builds a foundation for success we keep him. His antics don't matter then - he is getting the results.

[moralis]

Hi guys,

If you have time today please listen to this interview between TSN Radio host Gareth Wheeler and Jason Devos:

It sums up everything wrong with TFC and Jason offers suggestions on how to fix it:

Copy this link to your media player URL: http://iphone.tsn.ca/tsnpodcasts/jd%20oct%2030.mp3

[T-boy]

Too bitter for many, so good on you for the humility. More people need to change their minds; given that most people base their perspectives on belief over investigation, one has to assume it would lead to significant flip flopping and less general mistake making.

I always believe that if a new head coach can't get success within 3 or 4 months (longer than the short "new manager boost") then they will never get it right. Football management is a results driven job only, in the end of the day. Football managers can always come up with excuses, but good managers, and those who get results, don't need "excuses". Their results are all the proof they need. I personally kinda like Mariner "as a man", but I need to keep that separate. Results have been poor. Like earlier in the season, when I said "no manager goes 9 games in a row losing and keeps their job" - I also think that "no manager can go 14 games without a win and keep their job". Mariner had the opportunity to get a few players mid-season to improve things, but he failed. Wiedeman and Amarikwa are no more than depth players in the MLS, and Hassli was acquired when he was injured, which is never a great idea. Would a different head coach have done better? Maybe/maybe not. But I just judge what I see. And Mariner didn't improve the team at all apart from a slight "new manager boost" (which honestly, a blind field mouse could have done!).

[ryan]

Hi guys,

If you have time today please listen to this interview between TSN Radio host Gareth Wheeler and Jason Devos:

It sums up everything wrong with TFC and Jason offers suggestions on how to fix it:

Copy this link to your media player URL: http://iphone.tsn.ca/tsnpodcasts/jd oct 30.mp3

you must be Pedro?

[Belfast_Boy]

hence why it'd get attention. Those Canadians must be really pissed if they decided to skip their poutine lunch and do something offensive for a change.

instead of mailing Tom letters, lets mail him our kits with attached notes "I don't need this anymore, thanks"

I'm not giving up my Dero shirt! That's my little protest every time I wear it.

It's really hard to get any support for a protest. We even argue about calling it a protest. I like the idea but the key is to get numbers behind anything we are trying to say.

[Fort York Redcoat]

This movement, message will be all the more difficult for the fact that Anselmi is even less motivated to make a change in management after only a matter of months being forced to make the other.

This is a tall order, no doubt.