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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    TFC shouldn't be trying to sell the playoffs as a target in 2013, let alone putting the shackle of that target on whoever coaches TFC in 2012 (Paul Mariner or otherwise). Playoffs are two years away at a minimum. And if we need two years, they really need to decide if Mariner can build a team over time.
    This line of thinking will doom us. The playoffs should be an expectation every season, especially when you consider the fact that at the start of the season, every team has slightly more than a 50% chance of making them before a ball is even kicked.

    To be honest, I don't know why you would even consider this to be acceptable after you pointed out in your previous post other teams which had made significant improvements to their record after just one season.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    I want to put the job Paul Mariner has in front of him next year into a bit of context. The three biggest point turn around this season over last were, in order:

    1. San Jose: went from 38 to 66 points = 28 point improvement
    2. D.C. United: went from 39 to 58 = 19 point improvement
    3. Vancouver: 28 to 43 points = 15 point improvement


    For Toronto to just make the playoffs next year, they would need a 30 point improvement over this year's results (based on the 2012 final table). In other words, Toronto would need a turnaround even bigger than San Jose's this year, just to make the playoffs.

    That's a massive task (for any manager). Does anyone honestly believe Paul Mariner is the guy to do that?
    This is further proof that teams in MLS simply should not require extensive two or three year rebuilds!

    Turning TFC around should be no different. In fact, we must demand it to be so, as MLSE has so much more resources at it's disposal than any of those teams.
    Last edited by Cashcleaner; 11-03-2012 at 07:13 AM.
    Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashcleaner View Post
    This line of thinking will doom us. The playoffs should be an expectation every season, especially when you consider the fact that at the start of the season, every team has slightly more than a 50% chance of making them before a ball is even kicked.

    To be honest, I don't know why you would even consider this to be acceptable after you pointed out in your previous post other teams which had made significant improvements to their record after just one season.



    This is further proof that teams in MLS simply should not require extensive two or three year rebuilds!

    Turning TFC around should be no different. In fact, we must demand it to be so, as MLSE has so much more resources at it's disposal than any of those teams.

    Because IT IS TFC that's why it's different, if they had the proper structure and people.....i.e. not Mariner then your point is valid.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashcleaner View Post
    This line of thinking will doom us. The playoffs should be an expectation every season, especially when you consider the fact that at the start of the season, every team has slightly more than a 50% chance of making them before a ball is even kicked.

    To be honest, I don't know why you would even consider this to be acceptable after you pointed out in your previous post other teams which had made significant improvements to their record after just one season.



    This is further proof that teams in MLS simply should not require extensive two or three year rebuilds!

    Turning TFC around should be no different. In fact, we must demand it to be so, as MLSE has so much more resources at it's disposal than any of those teams.
    They're lacking in certain resources:

    -Structure
    -Football IQ
    -Vision


    And have an over abundance of:

    -Politics
    -Bureaucracy
    -Bullshit


    No amount of financial clout can overcome that.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashcleaner View Post
    This line of thinking will doom us. The playoffs should be an expectation every season, especially when you consider the fact that at the start of the season, every team has slightly more than a 50% chance of making them before a ball is even kicked.

    To be honest, I don't know why you would even consider this to be acceptable after you pointed out in your previous post other teams which had made significant improvements to their record after just one season.



    This is further proof that teams in MLS simply should not require extensive two or three year rebuilds!

    Turning TFC around should be no different. In fact, we must demand it to be so, as MLSE has so much more resources at it's disposal than any of those teams.
    Unfortunately resources has little to do with improvement in the MLS. Due to the limitations of the league, TFC simply can't go out and just buy themselves success. They are limited by the cap, and international spots, etc. Any rapid improvement requires clever management, not resources. Is Mariner clever enough to get 30 more points within one season?

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    Quote Originally Posted by T-boy View Post
    Unfortunately resources has little to do with improvement in the MLS. Due to the limitations of the league, TFC simply can't go out and just buy themselves success. They are limited by the cap, and international spots, etc. Any rapid improvement requires clever management, not resources. Is Mariner clever enough to get 30 more points within one season?
    No he's not. Lol

    As for limitations...I totally agree with you but you forgot one HUGE one.

    We are now limited by our reputation.

    TFC are literally an afterthought on the MLS landscape.

    What young promising player is gonna wanna come here to ply his trade?

    What MLS veteran views TFC as a place he'd like to come to in the hopes of winning?

    What older, experienced player (ie Frings/Koevermans type) is going to want to come here to finish his career on a high note and help younger players along?

    I suspect it will be very few.

    We'll get Dunfield type MLSers.

    We'll get Silva type youngsters who will see how Mariner values of player of his ilk.

    And we'll have experienced, once world class players who see how little value and appreciation is put into a guy like Frings and say, "no thanks".

    I see literally nothing to be optimisitic about unless your name is Ashtone Morgan and I don't think it'll be long before he's gone too.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post
    No he's not. Lol

    As for limitations...I totally agree with you but you forgot one HUGE one.

    We are now limited by our reputation.

    TFC are literally an afterthought on the MLS landscape.

    What young promising player is gonna wanna come here to ply his trade?

    What MLS veteran views TFC as a place he'd like to come to in the hopes of winning?

    What older, experienced player (ie Frings/Koevermans type) is going to want to come here to finish his career on a high note and help younger players along?

    I suspect it will be very few.

    We'll get Dunfield type MLSers.

    We'll get Silva type youngsters who will see how Mariner values of player of his ilk.

    And we'll have experienced, once world class players who see how little value and appreciation is put into a guy like Frings and say, "no thanks".

    I see literally nothing to be optimisitic about unless your name is Ashtone Morgan and I don't think it'll be long before he's gone too.
    Considering that Paul Mariner seems interested in converting him to a winger, despite his strengths being his tackling and recovery and not his dribbling, do you blame him? The guy has spent nearly a decade learning a trade only to have this guy tell him he's more useful playing up field, and Jeremy Hall, a natural winger who has always -- always -- been a rotten defender, is playing fullback.

    It's Bizarro world.

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    All very valid points.
    One thing can start us in the right direction. A structural rebuild.
    Bribe, buy or steal the proper prez. They will sack Mariner and hire a real manager. Then we can bring in quality talent. It's the only way out of this mess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by narduch View Post
    Only poor renewal numbers will get Mariner + Cochrane removed at this point, in my opinion.

    If renewals are good, Anselmi just bought himself 6 more months until he has to make a tough decision.
    This

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashcleaner View Post
    This line of thinking will doom us. The playoffs should be an expectation every season, especially when you consider the fact that at the start of the season, every team has slightly more than a 50% chance of making them before a ball is even kicked.

    To be honest, I don't know why you would even consider this to be acceptable after you pointed out in your previous post other teams which had made significant improvements to their record after just one season.



    This is further proof that teams in MLS simply should not require extensive two or three year rebuilds!

    Turning TFC around should be no different. In fact, we must demand it to be so, as MLSE has so much more resources at it's disposal than any of those teams.

    Actually your line of thinking brought us where we are right now,"playoffs next year or GTFO" is reason why we have 7th coach in 6 years.It is not lowering the expectation it's being realistic,with TFC you can't expect playoffs in next 2-3 years if and only IF TFC FO does the right moves and restructure the whole organization from Top to Bottom.

    If Winter was given the time to finished this season and than got fired while new coach with SAME PHILOSOPHY was signed ,we would be at least 1 year closer to playoffs and good foundation for years to come,but because of your line of thinking TFC FO panicked and pulled the trigger after 16 months or good 20 months to early. After 0-9 season was done they could let him finish the season,Winter's team was turning the corner at that point and few wins that we got You or could have been on TFC bench and we would win those games,Mariner did fuck all to improve the team,the academy,the style of play,and now once again TFC FO is giving the coach to make a playoffs next year or get sucked,guess what that means to us?2013 new start with 8th coach and same old story,back to square 1.
    Great love does not exist without joy and without great suffering ,that's why One club is worth only as much as its fans !


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    Quote Originally Posted by gomesv View Post
    Because IT IS TFC that's why it's different, if they had the proper structure and people.....i.e. not Mariner then your point is valid.
    That's what I'm getting at, though. There's absolutely no good reason why TFC has gone 6 full seasons with no playoffs. By now, given the odds, we should have accidentally made playoffs! The odds of any team not doing so in 6 seasons is staggering!

    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    They're lacking in certain resources:

    -Structure
    -Football IQ
    -Vision

    And have an over abundance of:

    -Politics
    -Bureaucracy
    -Bullshit


    No amount of financial clout can overcome that.
    Exactly. That's why our current state is unacceptable. These are problems that have plagued this team from the first season, yet no concrete steps to rectify them have been taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-boy View Post
    Unfortunately resources has little to do with improvement in the MLS. Due to the limitations of the league, TFC simply can't go out and just buy themselves success. They are limited by the cap, and international spots, etc. Any rapid improvement requires clever management, not resources. Is Mariner clever enough to get 30 more points within one season?
    I disagree. When a club has world class facilities, support staff, trainers, coaches, and managers - the chance of success does increase. You're absolutely right in that we are still held to a cap and there are certain restrictions on player acquisitions, but a limit on how much we can pay for talent is only one of many factors which can determine a club's success.

    Quote Originally Posted by denime View Post
    Actually your line of thinking brought us where we are right now,"playoffs next year or GTFO" is reason why we have 7th coach in 6 years. It is not lowering the expectation it's being realistic,with TFC you can't expect playoffs in next 2-3 years if and only IF TFC FO does the right moves and restructure the whole organization from Top to Bottom.

    If Winter was given the time to finished this season and than got fired while new coach with SAME PHILOSOPHY was signed ,we would be at least 1 year closer to playoffs and good foundation for years to come,but because of your line of thinking TFC FO panicked and pulled the trigger after 16 months or good 20 months to early. After 0-9 season was done they could let him finish the season,Winter's team was turning the corner at that point and few wins that we got You or could have been on TFC bench and we would win those games,Mariner did fuck all to improve the team,the academy,the style of play,and now once again TFC FO is giving the coach to make a playoffs next year or get sucked,guess what that means to us?2013 new start with 8th coach and same old story,back to square 1.
    My argument isn't: "playoffs or GTFO", my argument is pretty much exactly what I wrote - extensive builds or rebuilds (like "5-year plans", for example) are virtually unheard of in MLS. No other team seems to require that amount of time, yet we do. I'm assuming that by your post you're wanting Mariner to have another season to turn things around. That's not terribly unreasonable. I personally think coaches or managers need an off-season to make their fair share of personnel changes. My question to you is what are your expectations for 2013?
    Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashcleaner View Post
    My argument isn't: "playoffs or GTFO", my argument is pretty much exactly what I wrote - extensive builds or rebuilds (like "5-year plans", for example) are virtually unheard of in MLS. No other team seems to require that amount of time, yet we do. I'm assuming that by your post you're wanting Mariner to have another season to turn things around. That's not terribly unreasonable. I personally think coaches or managers need an off-season to make their fair share of personnel changes. My question to you is what are your expectations for 2013?
    5 yr plan is ridiculous, but not unheard of MLS teams to fail to make the playoffs in 3 years. Some teams manage to cobble together a semi decent team quickly, others take longer. (IE, DC United who went 5 yrs w/o playoffs until this year.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rance_droughts

    Sad thing is, now with DC finally making the playoffs, other than expansion Mtl and Portland, TFC is the only MLS team to fail to make the playoffs since 2009.

    "
    Hell is always loose here. It can't break loose again
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    -Fort York Redcoat, on the state of TFC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashcleaner View Post
    I'm assuming that by your post you're wanting Mariner to have another season to turn things around.
    My question to you is what are your expectations for 2013?
    God NO ,I WANT MARINER FIRED TOMORROW!!!!

    I have no TFC expectations for 2013,ZERO!

    My only expectation is Mariner to get fired mid season and us being back to Square 1 or should I say 2007.


    and BTW,Winter did not have 5 years plan,it was 2-3 but he was cut after 16 months because playoff expectations in 2012.
    Great love does not exist without joy and without great suffering ,that's why One club is worth only as much as its fans !


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    Winter wasn't fired just because of results, he was fired because he lost the dressing room and the Teflon twins went behind his back to management. Our dressing room is still the same shitshow it has always been because the same faces are still around it prodding and poking I.e. cochrane and Brennan. They've finally found a manager willing to play the game too. Make no mistake, until this club is razed to the ground we will never get past the dysfunctional mess that seeps out at the most important moments because of the various cliques and power struggles. Half of these players didn't give a shit under either manager and they need to be shipped out as well when the new president comes in

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    Quote Originally Posted by denime View Post
    God NO ,I WANT MARINER FIRED TOMORROW!!!!

    I have no TFC expectations for 2013,ZERO!

    My only expectation is Mariner to get fired mid season and us being back to Square 1 or should I say 2007.

    and BTW,Winter did not have 5 years plan,it was 2-3 but he was cut after 16 months because playoff expectations in 2012.
    So why is it okay to demand Mariner out now but not Winter at the time? Geeze denime, I think he still needs an off-season to acquire who he thinks we need before casting judgement. I at least want to see if the new guy can land any solid new players, you want him out before that, and somehow I'm the "playoffs next year or GTFO" guy? That's a bit contradictory, don't you think?

    And I think we're all aware that Winter didn't have a 5-year plan. That was simply one example that we would all recognize - mostly because it was the one piece of bullshit that smelled the worst.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wull View Post
    Winter wasn't fired just because of results, he was fired because he lost the dressing room and the Teflon twins went behind his back to management. Our dressing room is still the same shitshow it has always been because the same faces are still around it prodding and poking I.e. cochrane and Brennan. They've finally found a manager willing to play the game too. Make no mistake, until this club is razed to the ground we will never get past the dysfunctional mess that seeps out at the most important moments because of the various cliques and power struggles. Half of these players didn't give a shit under either manager and they need to be shipped out as well when the new president comes in
    SPOT ON, MATE ( tho you spelled faeces wrong!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashcleaner View Post
    So why is it okay to demand Mariner out now but not Winter at the time? Geeze denime, I think he still needs an off-season to acquire who he thinks we need before casting judgement. I at least want to see if the new guy can land any solid new players, you want him out before that, and somehow I'm the "playoffs next year or GTFO" guy? That's a bit contradictory, don't you think?

    And I think we're all aware that Winter didn't have a 5-year plan. That was simply one example that we would all recognize - mostly because it was the one piece of bullshit that smelled the worst.
    LOL Like last 6 months wasn't enough,last win was in July,winless in 14 wasn't enough,you would give him an off season.

    Other words you prefer hooofball from Mariner over actual soccer that Winter tried to implement,and if you are ready to give Mariner another year of his HOOFball without any plan,I'm sorry your expectations are aether to low, since you are ok with mariners mediocrity and we will end up with him dead last again,or to high since you actually expect from that Mariner "the guy who is good in what he is doing" to have a game plan and somehow push for playoffs,If he was able to sign a player you think he would not do it in July?
    Great love does not exist without joy and without great suffering ,that's why One club is worth only as much as its fans !


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    ^ I wouldn't give Mariner the same length of time that Winter got, but more than three quarters of a season. What's wrong with you? First I'm too eager to run guys out the door, now I want to keep them too long. Do you have anything else you want to say on my behalf? I'm just asking because you're tried to put your words in my mouth a few times already.

    I'm certainly unhappy with Mariner's performance as most people are, but I just gotta see how the off-season and the start of 2013 is gonna play out. Is that really as incredibly unreasonable as you seem to be implying?
    Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashcleaner View Post
    ^ I wouldn't give Mariner the same length of time that Winter got, but more than three quarters of a season. What's wrong with you? First I'm too eager to run guys out the door, now I want to keep them too long. Do you have anything else you want to say on my behalf? I'm just asking because you're tried to put your words in my mouth a few times already.

    I'm certainly unhappy with Mariner's performance as most people are, but I just gotta see how the off-season and the start of 2013 is gonna play out. Is that really as incredibly unreasonable as you seem to be implying?
    Simple queston:

    What has Mariner done in his time here that gives you enough optimism that you're willing to see what he can do with an off season?
    -tactics
    -player management
    -attitude
    -player selection
    -vision

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashcleaner View Post
    ^ I wouldn't give Mariner the same length of time that Winter got, but more than three quarters of a season. What's wrong with you? First I'm too eager to run guys out the door, now I want to keep them too long. Do you have anything else you want to say on my behalf? I'm just asking because you're tried to put your words in my mouth a few times already.

    I'm certainly unhappy with Mariner's performance as most people are, but I just gotta see how the off-season and the start of 2013 is gonna play out. Is that really as incredibly unreasonable as you seem to be implying?


    Honestly haven't you seen enough, the guy didn't arrive yesterday, he's been here as long as Winter, and when he took over.....I mean do we really have to state all the bad trades and players he's brought in, in such a short period of time, never mind his unwatchable brand of football......Mariner out NOW!

    Ask yourself can we really afford to give him the keys to this circus?

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    It's possible that some are just being consistent with their expectations of any coach.

    Winter got a full season so Mariner should get a full season.

    I don't agree with it but I see the principle behind it.

    I personally hate mid season changes to management. It's always a hindrance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    It's possible that some are just being consistent with their expectations of any coach.

    Winter got a full season so Mariner should get a full season.

    I don't agree with it but I see the principle behind it.

    I personally hate mid season changes to management. It's always a hindrance.


    I guess thats the concern I have, if he was just a COACH them maybe, but the descision making for this club starts and stops with him, that is way to scary of a proposition for me.
    Again maybe the arguement is not Mariner as coach, although I think he is aweful, but essentially at this point he is the GUY....thats not good enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    It's possible that some are just being consistent with their expectations of any coach.

    Winter got a full season so Mariner should get a full season.

    I don't agree with it but I see the principle behind it.

    I personally hate mid season changes to management. It's always a hindrance.
    Don't get me wrong, if a coach is that bad, we probably don't need a full season to determine to make an assessment. I also agree that changing horses mid-stride is something we should try to avoid. The problem is that right now we to have a a team that was assembled by two individuals with what appears to be some very different approaches. I have my doubts Mariner can turn things around. In fact, I'm pretty certain he can't. But nothing is assured and I want to see what he can do if given the opportunity to build a roster more to his liking. That's all.

    But hey, if the FO cuts him lose tomorrow, I'm okay with that too. There's really no extreme point-of-view I have on this issue.
    Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.

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    the question I have is Mariner said when he took over he wanted to put "more pride in the shirt"...i saw less and less pride in shirt/badge as the season got on

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    I think this is a fine initiative to undertake here, but I'd clarify one thing first - are you a Red Patch Boy (since you refer to us as "we")? As far as I can see, you aren't a member. Possible your status hasn't been updated?

    Either way, I agree with you. But if you want to organize something in the name of the group, you should at least become part of the group.

    - Scott
    I think the question you should be asking is why the RPB have done nothing to date on this themselves. All protests organised at last game were not official RPB santicioned protests.

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    Just like even the biggest Winter supporters agree that there is no way a manager can survive an 0-9 streak, I'm sure the Mariner supporters can easily agree that there is no way a manager can go 14 games without a win and still expect to coach. Even if he was brought in as a fresh face he still wouldn't be asked to continue the following year. But he was part of the shit show that brought us here. At 60 he has no coaching credentials that support him. Good at what he does? Really? What is that you have done and how was it good? Winter lost the dressing room but I have never seen players in a closing press conference unsure about confidence in their coach. Let's be honest, those who he hasn't pissed off aren't good enough to be here anyway.

    And again, before anyone goes the foolish route of blaming injuries as to why we went on that streak, let me remind you all that the highest ranked team we beat this year was Vancouver. Even at full strength, the best we could beat was the worst team to make the playoffs...a good 10 points fewer than our fifth placed team in the East. I am confident that we would have gotten those wins if Anselmi himself was coach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashcleaner View Post
    What information do you have that would lead you to make that assumption? Winter's TFC record is out there for all to see, but you may need to look at it again: 64 games culminating in 18 wins, 21 draws, and 25 losses.

    There is absolutely nothing in those numbers that a person should take inspiration from. Sure, it's entirely plausible (I'd even say likely) that the club could have ended up with a better record at the end of the season with Winter at the helm , but realistically, how much higher in the standings do you think we could have gone? Obviously, Mariner kept the downward trend going and we ended this year dead last with a meager 23 points, but do you think we'd be playoff contenders if Aron stuck around? I highly doubt it.

    Sure, maybe having Winter stick around would have earned us more points. But how many more, realisitically could we expect? Ten? That would put us in second-last place ahead of New England. What about fifteen extra points? Well, that would put us ahead of Philadelphia at least. Still no playoffs and 4 points behind Montreal, though.

    So yeah, I think there is a good chance that Winter could have positioned us maybe as high as 17th, 16th, or possibly even 15th spot at the end of the season, but would that have been in any way considered a success for the team? Because I gotta tell you, we'd be lowering the bar pretty low if it was.
    I don't think you're asking me what proof I have that Mariner turned the team into a pile of crap, but rather what evidence there is that Winter would have taken us in a upward trajectory.

    Do I have that right ?

    Well, I don't have any.

    All I have is the feeling that the play on the field was a lot more entertaining than what it was replaced with once Mariner took the helm. The future seemed brighter (even while losing 9 on the trot)... call it growing pains. Sorting shit out.

    It's like we were half way through The Two Towers and the kids got scared so we had to leave - never getting to see The Return of the King (having instead to creep into the next theater and watch what was left of Encino Man).

    That's enough for me.
    a ha ha heh he hoo.. ha

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    ^Lol...comparison between Mariner football and Encino Man...

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOBOR THE GREAT ! View Post

    All I have is the feeling that the play on the field was a lot more entertaining than what it was replaced with once Mariner took the helm. The future seemed brighter (even while losing 9 on the trot)... call it growing pains. Sorting shit out.
    This is important to note/discuss for me. There was a considerable amount of aggro over this point during the 9 losses at the start of the year. I'd like to know how people stand on this in retrospect. Was Winter's team more entertaining? All the seething animosity about results at all costs have lead me here to this offseason where results didn't happen and we've done nothing to progress with any one style of play.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    This is important to note/discuss for me. There was a considerable amount of aggro over this point during the 9 losses at the start of the year. I'd like to know how people stand on this in retrospect. Was Winter's team more entertaining? All the seething animosity about results at all costs have lead me here to this offseason where results didn't happen and we've done nothing to progress with any one style of play.
    I think Winter had a lot of support at the beginning of the year after that decent enough run at the end of 2011. 0-9 was enough to shake most people from that position.

    Originally I wanted to give him time. At some point I realized that Winter was too inflexible to be successful in MLS. I still hold to that, but concede that his play looked a lot nicer than bootball.

    I think the TFC coach that I've liked the best over the years personality-wise was John Carver; the one who probably was the most likely to make TFC successful was Chris Cummins, but he was never given a chance by Mo.

    The one I've disliked the most is Paul Mariner, even more than Preki, which speaks volumes.
    "Of all the things in life that don't actually matter, football matters the most." - Stuart McKeown

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    I think too much emphasis is being put on Winter v Mariner.

    We actually played some pretty boring soccer under Winter too, at times.

    I honestly wanted Winter fired by 0-5. But I would have prefered an entire FO purge at that time. This way the team had 2 transfer windows to prepare for 2013 (the MLS season was pretty much over by than anyways).

    Keeping Mariner now is only setting us back another year or two. The next rebuild won't be able to start until he is gone (along with Cochrane of course).

 

 

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