Mariner, Cochrane to return in 2013

[London]

As this is happening, what supporters have to do to move forward, is just put this issue to bed for the next 10 months, either move on (if they've had it), or support the team. They'll be plenty of time to stick knives in Mariner and Cochrane's back come next July. And if we are as pathetic as we've been the last 2 years, I'll happily sharpen the blade.

the FO and yourself will be quite suprised next season when you find out that in fact the supporters will not support the FO and manager of this club until they show a shred of knowledge about running a successfull club,

the knives are already stuck in the backs, they did it to themselves and only have themselves to blame.

take a look at what the state of TFC was in the last 2 home games, soon enough that will look like a big crowd for BMO

Supporters support the players, nobody else

[nfitz]

And yes, of course we hope you're right. We aren't masochists. I'm tired of feeling nothing but anger and lethargy about this team.

I hope Cochrane and Mariner win 10 MLS cups in a row.

Good to hear ... sometimes I start to wonder.

But hang on ... isn't being a football fan all about being a masochist? Unless your a Man U or a Barcelona fan, aren't you signing on for huge disappointment, regret, and tears?

[Pookie]

Just so we are clear, if Rollins is correct TFC's management hierarchy is essentially the status quo, new titles aside:

Anselmi
Mariner
Cochrane

Now that is clear, I want to thank MLSE for giving me something else to finally think about. I wonder what I'll spend my $1,100 on?

[TOBOR !]

Just so we are clear, if Rollins is correct TFC's management hierarchy is essentially the status quo, new titles aside:

Anselmi
Mariner
Cochrane

Now that is clear, I want to thank MLSE for giving me something else to finally think about. I wonder what I'll spend my $1,100 on?

Now you`re talking sense !

[Shakes McQueen]

Good to hear ... sometimes I start to wonder.

But hang on ... isn't being a football fan all about being a masochist? Unless your a Man U or a Barcelona fan, aren't you signing on for huge disappointment, regret, and tears?

It's one thing in Europe, to be a fan of a team without the resources to compete with the likes of a Barcelona or Man United. We are in a salary capped league, with one of the richest owners in the league, playing in one of the most populous cities in the league.

In six years we've had one serious sniff at the post-season, and it culminated in arguably the lowest single point in the franchise's history (the 4-0 drubbing to New York). All the while we've been fed a steady stream of excuses and unfulfilled promises, and sunshiney rainbows about how it "wasn't good enough" by the likes of Tom Anselmi.

We really do deserve better. And I fail to see how the status quo is supposed to deliver us from that.

- Scott

[[NBF]]

Players that will not return to play under Mariner:

1. Plata
2. Frings
3. Avila
4. Makubuya
5. Cordon
6. Dunfield(I dont think they want this guy back, but I bet they'll give him an academy job)

On The Bubble:

7. D.Williams(Maybe)
8. Q.Roberts(Maybe)
9. S.Frei(He could be traded, because he has value to MLS teams)
10. M.Kocic(Has some trade value, but likely to stay)

On The Bubble DP's:

11. Eric Hassli(Some trade value, but not likely to stay at the DP salary)
12. Danny Koevermans(Some trade value, but coming of an injury and is likely to be out of shape and under DP salary)

*Just replacing Torsten Frings is such a major task that I dont think this group of geniuses could get right. If they plan on bringing in 8-9 players I fail to see where they'll get them from that will be able to jump into the first team or even make a solid bench player.

I dont think they will have 20 players that will come under the cap.

[Whoop]

Even in Europe different clubs fight for different things.

Some play for the title, others play for a spot in a European competition, others play to stay in the first division. There is something for everyone.

Luckily TFC has the Voyageurs Cup to play for otherwise it would be a lot more dire.

And it wasn't 4-0 to NYRB, it was 5-0.

[Oldtimer]

I'm pretty sure that instead of "spend what it takes to get fans back," it's going to be "spend as little as possible so you can still make money with 8,000 in the stands. " Expect this team to suck for the forseable future.

[narduch]

What is the end game here? To save some pocket change by keeping guys already under contract instead of putting new names on the dole? What else could it possibly be?

I think the the purpose of this was that it buys Anselmi one more season before he has to make a decision again.

[supersaint]

Good to hear ... sometimes I start to wonder.

But hang on ... isn't being a football fan all about being a masochist? Unless your a Man U or a Barcelona fan, aren't you signing on for huge disappointment, regret, and tears?

I have been a STH since day one. 2000 a year. I love the game passionately. I cannot justify that type of outlay to watch the football on display at BMO field anymore. I cannot understand how you seem filled with praise for Mariner. Are we watching the same team? MLS is moving on, most successful teams are becoming more technical. Mariner likes a style of football that does not produce results AND is excrutiating to watch. And this comes from someone who loves the game. We are such a turnoff to the casual fan, and we are certainly not going to win over any new supporters, and that really pisses me off, because this SHOULD have been one of the great franchises in the league!! I doubt very much that you will have your knife out for Mariner if we fail to make the playoffs, you will defend him to the end. I just do not understand how anyone who knows anything at all about the game can defend the crap that we are watching down at BMO Field just now. The lack of possession, the lack of creativity, the lack of entertainment, the lack of HOPE for the future, and now finally the lack of attendance. I am just so angry because this team is being run into the ground. I will still watch on tv next year, but I cannot justify the time and effort to get to the park from Newmarket and the cost. The value is just not there. Hopefully the MNT make it through to the Hex, because I will certainly attend their games.

[Richard]

I'm pretty sure that instead of "spend what it takes to get fans back," it's going to be "spend as little as possible so you can still make money with 8,000 in the stands. " Expect this team to suck for the forseable future.

Sounds like Bell/Rogers wants to run this team like the Jays.

[Shakes McQueen]

Sounds like Bell/Rogers wants to run this team like the Jays.

I've got some anxiety about some of the contradictory statements from Beeston and AA about team salary, but this statement isn't borne out by the facts.

If they wanted to run the team on the cheap, they wouldn't have exponentially increased spending on signing draft picks, or turned our scouting department into one of the biggest in the league.

You can make an argument that they are being too tight with the purse strings on free agent signings (though there is wide disagreement on this point among the fans, depending on where you think the team is in it's development), but they most definitely are not running the team "on the cheap" right now.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

I think the the purpose of this was that it buys Anselmi one more season before he has to make a decision again.

But how does keeping two guys the fans are already fed up with "buy him time", unless you literally mean he can't be bothered to find anyone else.

The man was just named President of MLSE despite six dreadful campaigns - clearly he isn't worried about his TFC decisions coming back to haunt him.

- Scott

[tfcleeds]

Good to hear ... sometimes I start to wonder.

But hang on ... isn't being a football fan all about being a masochist? Unless your a Man U or a Barcelona fan, aren't you signing on for huge disappointment, regret, and tears?

There is a world of difference between what your average supporter of a lower-league English league club, for instance, has to put up with, and what we as supporters of this club, have had to put up with since this club's inception. For starters, the whole of MLS is setup to promote parity. There is no reason, if we had had competent management in place, that we should not have made the playoffs by now. Heck, RSL was in the same situation as us, and they've managed to win a championship in their short existence.

It's not just a question of results, however. This management team has shown utter arrogance and indifference towards its most loyal supporters. We've been treated as an afterthought by the FO of this club, with the constant price-hikes despite no improvement in the product. Ticket prices are amongst the most expensive, not just in MLS, but in the world - and for what? This FO was gifted with an amazing fanbase from the very beginning, even though there were many exterior factors that helped account for that, and yet somehow they developed the notion that they were responsible for it. They were born on 3rd base, and thought they hit a triple. They used the supporters groups to promote their product, yet ended up alienating them when they felt they didn't need them anymore for marketing purposes. This club has made so many short-sighted decisions that have been nothing but costly mistakes, not only serving to harm the competitiveness of the team in the league, but also basically destroying the atmosphere in the stands and decimating the fanbase almost overnight.

Yeah, a lot of English league clubs are badly run as well - but the thing is, badly run teams in England pay for their mistakes. Relegation happens, ownership changes, and team fortunes change, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. As a Leeds United supporter for more than 20 years, I feel qualified to speak to that reality. MLSE and the FO of this club however, seem tone-deaf to the demands of their supporters, and the realities of the market they're in however. I think they'll be getting the message very soon once season ticket renewal numbers come in lower than ever.

[narduch]

But how does keeping two guys the fans are already fed up with "buy him time", unless you literally mean he can't be bothered to find anyone else.

The man was just named President of MLSE despite six dreadful campaigns - clearly he isn't worried about his TFC decisions coming back to haunt him.

- Scott

Yes, I think Anselmi is really bad at making hard decisions. I think he hates making them. He procrastinates on really tough decisions or tries to defer them to someone else.

[Shakes McQueen]

Yes, I think Anselmi is really bad at making hard decisions. I think he hates making them. He procrastinates on really tough decisions or tries to defer them to someone else.

Given how many managers we've gone through over the years, I don't think that's true. I think he has no problem making decisions - he just has a proclivity for making terrible ones.

But whatever, at this point we are just haggling over why exactly he's so awful, haha.

- Scott

[Pookie]

I've got some anxiety about some of the contradictory statements from Beeston and AA about team salary, but this statement isn't borne out by the facts.

If they wanted to run the team on the cheap, they wouldn't have exponentially increased spending on signing draft picks, or turned our scouting department into one of the biggest in the league.

You can make an argument that they are being too tight with the purse strings on free agent signings (though there is wide disagreement on this point among the fans, depending on where you think the team is in it's development), but they most definitely are not running the team "on the cheap" right now.

- Scott

Not to turn this into a Jays discussion but I did the numbers in January of this year and the Jays total spending "draft and payroll" is less now than it was a decade ago.

The increase in draft spending is also temporary due to a new cap. Further, the year in which the Jays increased their spend was the year of record MLB draft spending. Jays were outspent by the Pirates by over $7m in that 2011 inflationary year. All tams spent more on the draft that year than they ever did.

Its a good spin but it doesnt hold up. Rogers is running the team on a tight budget and has since taking over.

Full article is here http://www.sportsnet.ca/fanfuel/2012...raft_spending/

[Beach_Red]

Given how many managers we've gone through over the years, I don't think that's true. I think he has no problem making decisions - he just has a proclivity for making terrible ones.

But whatever, at this point we are just haggling over why exactly he's so awful, haha.

- Scott

Yeah, this is what it's come to. Although there is a quote in the other thread from Anselmi insisting he "only hired two managers," so I guess he feels he delegated the other decisions and that somehow absolves him of responsibility.

But yeah, with this organization it isn't a matter of not spending it's just that they aren't very good.

[Shakes McQueen]

Not to turn this into a Jays discussion but I did the numbers in January of this year and the Jays total spending "draft and payroll" is less now than it was a decade ago.

The increase in draft spending is also temporary due to a new cap. Further, the year in which the Jays increased their spend was the year of record MLB draft spending. Jays were outspent by the Pirates by over $7m in that 2011 inflationary year. All tams spent more on the draft that year than they ever did.

Its a good spin but it doesnt hold up. Rogers is running the team on a tight budget and has since taking over.

Full article is here http://www.sportsnet.ca/fanfuel/2012...raft_spending/

It wasn't a question of whether they were spending the most in the league on these things - it was a question of whether they were running the team "on the cheap". And it completely disregards what I said about the massive expansion in our scouting staff.

And yes, I know that we are spending less on payroll now than we were ten years ago (even factoring in the draft). Stoeten did a story on this about a week ago on Drunk Jays Fans, after AA claimed that payroll had been "steadily increasing every year" to a reporter. The difference between 10 years ago and now, is that AA/Beeston had generally been pretty frank about the fact that they wanted to redouble scouting and drafting efforts, rebuild the farm system, and then add a FA or two when the time was right. The disagreement with some fans and media has been on what the "right time" is.

And of course, a real, unavoidable test is going to come up when guys like Brett Lawrie are knocking on the door for their big, fat contract extensions.

So yes, they've been thrifty when it comes to payroll, so far (in some cases smartly, in other cases... not so much). But they aren't running the team "on the cheap". And personally, I think this winter is going to be a turning point for Rogers to either put up, or shut up, as it pertains to the Blue Jays.

- Scott

[jazzy]

IF this is true: you know what "make the playoffs this year or else you're out" means. Especially when the folks in charge from the top of the FO to the coach & his lackey don't really have the skills. Especially when they don't have any long-term security to rely on. It means everything will be done in view of short-term results. We've seen this a couple of times over the past 7 years.

- Avoid getting & playing academy grads and other young talents & giving them the opportunity to grow.
- Overpay for players, especially aging "results now" players.
- Blow whatever you got for short-term results: allocation money; draft pics/allocation order/etc; international spots; whatever else you can think of.
- Time-bomb contracts that increase in future years & screw us then (e.g., Barrett).
- Verbal promises "That's all I can offer you this year, but next year we'll boost your salary, just trust me."
- Overplay certain players, despite nagging injuries or folks just needing a break.
- Avoid building skills, a certain style, or any other strategy geared more towards long-term growth.
- Yell & scream alot.
- Every player you sign, knows from the beginning that Coach & Coch are on a one-year leash. Good chance there will be new coaches/new philosophy/new whatever within a year, and lots of stress in the meantime. What good player is going to want sign in that atmosphere, with no guarantee of stability? Unless you're really willing to overpay. Their agents will know you're desperate.
- All in all, screw the next couple of years so you can squeak into the playoffs.
So if they fail, Anselmi gets to fire Mariner & Cochrane next year, but Anselmi again keeps his job?

or we are finally the toronto maple leafs.......overpaid, no superstars,...where players come to retire/or collect$$$

[Whoop]

When is Eckersley's contract due?

[Richard]

It wasn't a question of whether they were spending the most in the league on these things - it was a question of whether they were running the team "on the cheap". And it completely disregards what I said about the massive expansion in our scouting staff.

And yes, I know that we are spending less on payroll now than we were ten years ago (even factoring in the draft). Stoeten did a story on this about a week ago on Drunk Jays Fans, after AA claimed that payroll had been "steadily increasing every year" to a reporter. The difference between 10 years ago and now, is that AA/Beeston had generally been pretty frank about the fact that they wanted to redouble scouting and drafting efforts, rebuild the farm system, and then add a FA or two when the time was right. The disagreement with some fans and media has been on what the "right time" is.

And of course, a real, unavoidable test is going to come up when guys like Brett Lawrie are knocking on the door for their big, fat contract extensions.

So yes, they've been thrifty when it comes to payroll, so far (in some cases smartly, in other cases... not so much). But they aren't running the team "on the cheap". And personally, I think this winter is going to be a turning point for Rogers to either put up, or shut up, as it pertains to the Blue Jays.

- Scott

To me the right time is "All the time". If a player is available of elite caliber you always make the push to get them, my problem is the notion of not getting player X because were not projecting to compete this year, next year, year after etc....

We have the marketplace to support a team with a larger payroll close to NY or Boston, i dont like how its treated like a small market team

Anyways this is off topic so we shouldnt discuss this here.

[maninb]

"Very good news as far as I'm concerned. Should provide some well-needed stability"...nfitz

Are you FUCKING kidding me????? Stability?? It's just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic!!! PM & EC are ABYSMALLY INCOMPETENT and if you can't see that by now, then God help ya...

[Beach_Red]

To me the right time is "All the time". If a player is available of elite caliber you always make the push to get them, my problem is the notion of not getting player X because were not projecting to compete this year, next year, year after etc....

We have the marketplace to support a team with a larger payroll close to NY or Boston, i dont like how its treated like a small market team

Anyways this is off topic so we shouldnt discuss this here.

Yeah, it's off topic, but it does speak to a management attitude that we also have to deal with when it comes to TFC - this idea that there may or may not be "a right time." The problem is that there is always another team (or four or five or ten other teams) that it is "the right time for" now. Management here always seems to operate in some kind of a bubble as though they expect the rest of the league to wait for them while they get it together.

[jabbronies]

If this is true, I can't wait for the press conference where they explain their justification. What have Mariner or Cochrane done to demonstrate that they deserve another year - even one with a clear ultimatum?

Mariner's one claim to fame with TFC was the incredible feat of winning three games in a row. Cochrane's claim to fame is...? After seven years, declining ticket sales and ST renewals, and extreme fan anger/apathy, they determined this was the wisest course of action?

Give Cochrane more credit than that. Wasn't he in charge of player relations. He drove many a player out of this town and had them unsure out whether they were staying or going.

[narduch]

Given how many managers we've gone through over the years, I don't think that's true. I think he has no problem making decisions - he just has a proclivity for making terrible ones.

But whatever, at this point we are just haggling over why exactly he's so awful, haha.

- Scott

But Anselmi wasn't involved in the hiring/firing of the first set of managers, except for Mo Johnston.

Anselmi waited too long to get rid of Mo. And now he's repeating that mistake with Mariner + Cochrane.

I just hope for the sake of the club that they are already searching for the new management hires that they will be needing to make next summer.

[narduch]

By the way, there is a rumour going around on twitter that TFC is interested in trading its 1st rounder for Sam Cronin.

Those are the types of moves we should expect from a management team that are going to do everything to keep their jobs.

I want to say the Mariner + Cochrane news is the low point for this club, but everytime I think that, it sinks lower.

[tfcleeds]

This club keeps on finding new ways to define the term "nadir". It's unbelievable really.

[narduch]

This club keeps on finding new ways to define the term "nadir". It's unbelievable really.

LOL. That is the first name of one of MLSE's new Board of Directors? (from Rogers)

[tfcleeds]

^Yeah, he's the CEO of Rogers. I've found that to be somewhat amusing.