A Question of Loyalty?

[TorontoGooner]

Afternoon all. Feel free to delete/comment/troll the following as you wish. Its an open forum after all. However, I feel I need to rant and get a few things off my chest.

Firstly, my as well as other fans' loyalty has been called into question (via Twitter) as we refuse to attend currently or renew next year. This does get me a little pissed off. Alas, I've even been referred to as a 'consumer'. Let's get one thing straight here. This is a 5 year old team that has next to no history, has failed to deliver and has frequently let down its support. On top of that, ticket prices have continue to rise as the quality drops.

I'm a loyal TFC fan. I've been to 6 away games at great expense, have held a season ticket for a while and bought a load of merchandise to show my pride. However, after all, I'm starting to get a little sick of the players not applauding their own away support, a lack of effort on the pitch and a board that has no idea what football is (yes, it's called football :P). But recently I decided to stop going as I'm literally chucking money away now. It's a form of a boycott, and I still watch the game at home on TV. I am, however, still going to as many away games as money allows.

I believe that until others start following suit the ongoing problems will never resolve themselves. By going every week and cheer leading a bunch of players who don't give a shit what the shirt means, you're sending out the message that you don't mind being ripped off every week. I loathe this "I'll be there through thick and thin" quote which people say to boast of their loyalty. It's ridiculous. This is a franchise after all that has a continuous squad rotation and really doesn't care for you. It's not a case that you're loyal through history, because you're family was to the badge or because you grew up as a kid admiring them. No. It's simple case that you happen to live closer to them than any other MLS team, or a franchise happened to move to your city.

Want to make a stand? Stop going. Stop singing. Stop letting the players with mediocre performances when they're paid decent money to live out what we'd kill for. I hate the MLSE as much as the next guy, so as they kill my club I'm not going to feed them. It's such a shame, and I feel sorry for every TFC fan, none more so the excellent fan groups the club has.

And here's the rather hypocritical point of this message. Stop moaning on internet forums and do something. Anything. Just make the point where it'll be noticed.

[TFC Cityboy]

"Want to make a stand? Stop going. Stop singing. "That plan is working quite nicely, Gooner

[Couchy81]

If loyalty means the number of games you go to on the entire season, you are dis-loyal for not going. those that go to every single game from day 1 have bragging rights that they never missed a game.

If loyalty means doing whatever it takes to help the club succeed, you are dis-loyal for continuing to put profits in the pockets of a corporation that doesn't know anything about running a soccer team. those that boycott the games and vie for change at the field and management level will have bragging rights that they helped put the club on the path to success.

[TorontoGooner]

If loyalty means the number of games you go to on the entire season, you are dis-loyal for not going. those that go to every single game from day 1 have bragging rights that they never missed a game.

If loyalty means doing whatever it takes to help the club succeed, you are dis-loyal for continuing to put profits in the pockets of a corporation that doesn't know anything about running a soccer team. those that boycott the games and vie for change at the field and management level will have bragging rights that they helped put the club on the path to success.

Quite an interesting point mate

[tiberius]

Want to make a stand? Stop going. Stop singing. Stop letting the players with mediocre performances when they're paid decent money to live out what we'd kill for. I hate the MLSE as much as the next guy, so as they kill my club I'm not going to feed them. It's such a shame, and I feel sorry for every TFC fan, none more so the excellent fan groups the club has.

And here's the rather hypocritical point of this message. Stop moaning on internet forums and do something. Anything. Just make the point where it'll be noticed.

I agree 100% - stop moaning - DO NOT RENEW YOUR SEASONS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. If you are going to renew, just stop the moaning - there is only one way to send a message, and everyone knows it. DO NOT RENEW.

If you like what is going on, by all means - renew. If you renew, please be quiet, as you are part of the problem, not the solution IMHO. Sharing you displeasure with MLSE/TFC on this site may be cathartic, but is useless, unless you refuse to renew.

If you are with T-boy, nfitz, Paul Bierne, Tom Anselmi, Cochroach and Marnier and think that things are just fine - if you enjoy Mariner's prancing on the sidelines and his throwing of his own hand picked players under the bus, please renew and go and enjoy the games - but if you are absolutely disgusted by the last six years of utter crap spewed by Anselmi, Beirne and Cochroach then stand up and be counted!!! You can go to the games anyway next year - send an EFFING MESSAGE NOW!

It is plain, and it is simple...

DO NOT RENEW!!

[ArmenJBX]

I get the sentiment in not renewing, but I see one deep, long-term flaw.

If you don't renew, you lose your spot. Keep that in mind.

There's going to be people who are looking to buy spots in 111/112. If people don't renew, you don't get that spot back, even if Toronto FC start winning. If and when Toronto FC do start winning, those guys aren't going to drop their seasons. Since supporters groups don't distribute season tickets in those sections, people who fill them will keep them.

I've heard numerous, numerous people tell me they're renewing to 111/112/113 if they can, and they don't sing or chant or anything. They just think it's a cool spot to party. It's unfortunate, but it's also the reality. People will buy their tickets there and move. Now, one year later, you've got a bunch of unwilling supporters in those sections.

If that's what it takes, that's what it takes. All I'm hoping for is that the corner of supporters doesn't lose its long-term viability.

[colman1860]

Seriously? You really think a bit of winning will bring us back to capacity? The novelty has run its course. It will not be hard to get tickets for TFC ever again, simple as.

[tiberius]

I get the sentiment in not renewing, but I see one deep, long-term flaw.

If you don't renew, you lose your spot. Keep that in mind.

I hear what you are saying Armen but ... Spot? What spot? I can buy a ticket to any game, any time, for $5 and come and stand beside the boys in 112. Any day, any night, any time, $5. That will not change anytime soon. I will admit that I could be wrong if Paul Mariner is the second coming of Jesus Christ (in short pants) - other than that.. the $5 speaks for itself...

[ArmenJBX]

I hear what you are saying Armen but ... Spot? What spot? I can buy a ticket to any game, any time, for $5 and come and stand beside the boys in 112. Any day, any night, any time, $5. That will not change anytime soon. I will admit that I could be wrong if Paul Mariner is the second coming of Jesus Christ (in short pants) - other than that.. the $5 speaks for itself...

It's not now that worries me.

If Toronto FC make playoffs, the stadium will be packed. The people will sit in their own seats. Those people in 111/112/113 who did not renew have given up that spot. Other people will fill them in. Then, when things get good again, supporters who are forced to sit in or around their own section will no longer have a spot in 111/112/113.

That's my concern

[Wagner]

A couple of points...

1) It's just one guy that made the "consumer" comment. it's an opinion, take it or leave it. The guy has a history of stirring it up. I personally don't put a lot of stock in his takes.

2) I find "calling" out supporters like that doesn't help things. You attract more flies with honey...similar to people yelling at people to sing or yell more, rather than yelling at them for what the yeller perceives as poor performance, welcome them, and encourage them, it will go a lot further.

[tiberius]

A couple of points...

1) It's just one guy that made the "consumer" comment. it's an opinion, take it or leave it. The guy has a history of stirring it up. I personally don't put a lot of stock in his takes.

2) I find "calling" out supporters like that doesn't help things. You attract more flies with honey...similar to people yelling at people to sing or yell more, rather than yelling at them for what the yeller perceives as poor performance, welcome them, and encourage them, it will go a lot further.

The folk who come out to support the team should always be encouraged and applauded. There is no "poor performance" that could possibly occur from the supporters sections - they are the best that Toronto FC has. The question really is: How can change be effected? Or for some: Is it my job to effect change? In the end, everyone has to figure out the answers to these questions for themselves... After six long years, there just don't seem to be a lot of viable options left, that might prompt a change of direction in the HMS Toronto FC...

[Pookie]

It's not now that worries me.

If Toronto FC make playoffs, the stadium will be packed. The people will sit in their own seats. Those people in 111/112/113 who did not renew have given up that spot. Other people will fill them in. Then, when things get good again, supporters who are forced to sit in or around their own section will no longer have a spot in 111/112/113.

That's my concern

I see it a little differently. If empty seats abound, SGs will have the flexibility and open door that they need to talk about their own sections. We always talk about the idea of a unified area, the issue was always with existing seat holders. The fewer there are, the more space to move..no?

i also don't think that winning will pack the place beyond a 1 off game. People don't mind paying high prices for a game like Real Madrid, well the casual doesn't. But sustaining high prices for 19 games through a season is why many are walking away. Call it novelty if you like but to me it is simply economics, for me to drop over a $1,100 for north end seats is just ridiculous.

[ArmenJBX]

I see it a little differently. If empty seats abound, SGs will have the flexibility and open door that they need to talk about their own sections. We always talk about the idea of a unified area, the issue was always with existing seat holders. The fewer there are, the more space to move..no?

i also don't think that winning will pack the place beyond a 1 off game. People don't mind paying high prices for a game like Real Madrid, well the casual doesn't. But sustaining high prices for 19 games through a season is why many are walking away. Call it novelty if you like but to me it is simply economics, for me to drop over a $1,100 for north end seats is just ridiculous.

Here's my scenario.

Let's say 100 people can fit in 111.
Out of those 100 people, only 30 renew. That leaves 70 open seats.
Then, 70 people from any other section decide to relocate to 111, since it's cheaper.

Now, you have 30 RPBs and 70 randoms.
Then, 2013 turns into Toronto's greatest season. They win a lot of games. Interest is really high again. But, there's 70 people out of the 100 now in 111, they're casual fans looking to save money, where before, there would be 100 RPBs willing to support and sing and chant.

When Toronto FC begins churning out 21,000 a game, people will have to sit in their own spot. Those 70 casuals now have 111 under control. That's their spot. They're gonna renew there too, since it's cheap.

It's like sitting in a room with a nice, big comfy Lazyboy surrounded by wooden stools. When you get up from that chair, someone is gonna take your spot, and you're going to come back and sit on a wooden stool.

[Cashcleaner]

^ That is a very real, and very concerning scenario that all supporters need to consider. Very good point, Jimmy.

[TorontoGooner]

Here's my scenario.

Let's say 100 people can fit in 111.
Out of those 100 people, only 30 renew. That leaves 70 open seats.
Then, 70 people from any other section decide to relocate to 111, since it's cheaper.

Now, you have 30 RPBs and 70 randoms.
Then, 2013 turns into Toronto's greatest season. They win a lot of games. Interest is really high again. But, there's 70 people out of the 100 now in 111, they're casual fans looking to save money, where before, there would be 100 RPBs willing to support and sing and chant.

When Toronto FC begins churning out 21,000 a game, people will have to sit in their own spot. Those 70 casuals now have 111 under control. That's their spot. They're gonna renew there too, since it's cheap.

It's like sitting in a room with a nice, big comfy Lazyboy surrounded by wooden stools. When you get up from that chair, someone is gonna take your spot, and you're going to come back and sit on a wooden stool.

Fair point. But I'd rather have a better football team than a section 112 supporters section. Who's to say we couldn't start elsewhere in another part of the ground? Sometimes you have to give up the lazyboy if it means you end up with at least a chair.

[Pookie]

Armen, why are you assuming that the new visitors to 112 wouldn't join the RPB? Isn't that the mission to bring new ones into the mix?

in my scenario, the empty seats affords the SGs to establish a, hate to say it, Nordecke like area in which a unified support can be brought forward.

[ArmenJBX]

I'm assuming that people will move to cheaper seats. This is a trend that will follow the entire south section. If my tickets cost me 600 and there's now seats open for 300, I buy the second option. I imagine many will think this way too.

They could very well be new RPBs. However, from people I've spoken to, the overwhelming majority are casual fans looking to save money. Once they get their hands on cheap seat in 111/112/113, they won't easily let go of them.

I hope I'm wrong though. Actually, I hope TFC gives control of this sections to supporters.

[tfcleeds]

I also agree that having 112 isn't necessary for a supporters group, and who knows what may happen down the road. We may well, at some point, be given control of our own section, not necessarily 112. I wouldn't trust that to happen under the current regime, but who knows what may happen 5 years from now.

I agree with many sentiments of the OP. As the saying goes, "no pain, no gain". Sometimes in order to effect change, you have to make the uncomfortable decisions. Now I'm not going to tell people how to spend their money, or tell people to stop going to games if that is what they enjoy doing. But it does seem rather odd to me in some ways that some people insist on renewing, even after 6 years of utter futility. You could still go to as many games as your heart desires, and save money, by not renewing. This is the part I don't get. Maybe some people like having their seasons', or have a kind of attachment to their spots that makes them hard to give up. But by renewing, you are lining MLSE's pockets from the get-go, they have your money. Imagine if the most loyal support stopped buying merchandise, concessions, AND only bought walk-up tickets the day of the game? MLSE would be shitting their pants, and it might even be enough for them to think about getting out of the football business altogether.

By doing it this way, you can still go to games, save money, and hurt MLSE where it counts. I suppose the negatives are what people have mentioned (but I don't see BMO being filled at capacity again for a good many years down the road, and we'll have had to have some degree of success too before that happens) and the fact our unified support would be affected a bit. But there are other places in the stadium where RPB could congregate - these days, it doesn't seem to be that hard to find an empty section.

Just my 2 cents.

[Huyton]

I have been wanting to get into the south stands since Day 1 when I realized how badly I'd misjudged the need for football. At least I'm in a supporters section now, but the tattered remnants of NEE don't even bang on their drum anymore, and they don't even bother to stand up to watch the game.

Frankly, I'm hoping for a lot of people not renewing so I, and my seatmates, can finally get into the south stands. The closer to 112/113 the better.

So yeah, people want your non-renewing seats. In our case, though, we'll be singing, chanting, clapping, jumping and standing the entire game, every game.

[Abou Sky]

1. I find it hilarious that the only reason people can find to renew is to hold their seat, guess you can't just leave your hoodie there to hold it...

2. Both sides are right.

Personally, I will likely renew only if at allocation I can get cheap tix ($400 instead of $900 I am currently paying) otherwise I will probably just get them on the boards.

I don't think there are too many left that think you are disloyal for not renewing.

[tiberius]

I'm assuming that people will move to cheaper seats. This is a trend that will follow the entire south section. If my tickets cost me 600 and there's now seats open for 300, I buy the second option. I imagine many will think this way too.

They could very well be new RPBs. However, from people I've spoken to, the overwhelming majority are casual fans looking to save money. Once they get their hands on cheap seat in 111/112/113, they won't easily let go of them.

I hope I'm wrong though. Actually, I hope TFC gives control of this sections to supporters.

Armen - I hear your fear and understand it. Unfortunately the dilution of the south end is a process that will be completed for the 2013 season. Keeping your own seat will not stop this happening. You just have to accept that you will have suits on one side of you and giggling "Socco" girls on the other. This is yet another incompetent foul up of Anselmi, Bierne + Cochrane. They will have to fix the supporter section debacle down the road - they know it is important (belatedly), but yet again, they have screwed the pooch... They will not be able to stop the dilution (although they will make platitudes and promises, blah, blah, blah...)

Given that the south end dilution will occur, the real issue comes down to: Will you prepay for your seats in order to save a smidgen of money? If you happen to miss a couple of games next year, you will actually lose money by prepaying. Why lock in all of those ticket sales for Tommy A? Why make their lives easy? Do they deserve an easy ride?

You may actually save money by buying individual tickets just by taking advantage of a grope-on and travelzoo deals, free KIA ticket give away, or perhaps buy a ticket for $5 from someone who can't make the game... Why make it easy on ABC + Mariner, to possibly save maybe $30 or $40? Just bite the bullet - pay an extra $40 and say yes to wanting a better product on the field, say yes to buying individual tickets.

As Tommy A. has famously said - it is all about supply and demand. If Tommy is supplied with a ton of prepaid tickets for a pathetic product (on and off the field) there is clearly not much of a demand for a better product. Where is the need or motivation to provide better soccer and soccer management if everybody prepays for seats to see a shitty product? There is no need - this is Toronto Maple Leaf/Anselmi logic 101. This has worked for decades....

On the other hand, if the team has to rely almost solely on walk up ticket sales next year, you can be assured that there will be a lot more (genuine) focus on the customer (better pricing, fan promotions etc.) There will also be real focus on getting a better product on the field in order to attract more "actual" attendance to the games. TV revenues are practically non-existent for TFC, so that won't save them. The route to making money for them will be to fill those seats. That is why a team like Columbus can be shitty one year and take the MLS Cup the next - their management is extremely motivated to fill seats as their revenue flow is tied to success.

Go to every game in 2013 - just don't prepay (and possibly overpay) so that ABC and Mariner can comfortably go into a 7th year of giving a complete load of crap to the fans and supporters of soccer in Toronto.

No matter what happens, or what route you take with season tickets, there will be plenty of room for you, in the south end, on game day, for the next few years...

[nfitz]

I hear what you are saying Armen but ... Spot? What spot? I can buy a ticket to any game, any time, for $5 and come and stand beside the boys in 112. Any day, any night, any time, $5. That will not change anytime soon. I will admit that I could be wrong if Paul Mariner is the second coming of Jesus Christ (in short pants) - other than that.. the $5 speaks for itself...

I'm curious. If no one renews, who will be selling you the $5 ticket?

By going every week and cheer leading a bunch of players who don't give a shit what the shirt means, you're sending out the message that you don't mind being ripped off every week.

Did you you hear much in the way of cheering yesterday? 112/113 was very quiet - so quiet that you could communicate to people from one side of 113 to the other side of 112. The only singing I heard was Dichio ... until the goal, and some at the front of 112 felt the need to start banging the drum and start singing. Interesting I don't see those folks posting here ...

I think the message is getting through ... even if I bought a Steamwhistle.

[Abou Sky]

As a note: how much worse could the south stand be?

Yesterday for the first 30 mins 113 was sitting and 114 sat the entire game as did 110

[tiberius]

I'm curious. If no one renews, who will be selling you the $5 ticket?

Good point! In that case I guess we are stuck with a $10 travelzoo deal!

...

I think the message is getting through ... even if I bought a Steamwhistle.

I agree with you - the message that people are not happy with the product is getting through.

Unfortunately the senior management don't really care much if the fans are happy or not. They only care that game tickets are pre-paid a year in advance!

[nfitz]

Good point! In that case I guess we are stuck with a $10 travelzoo deal!

LOL! Touché.

Unfortunately the senior management don't really care much if the fans are happy or not. They only care that game tickets are pre-paid a year in advance!

Everything I'm hearing, is that they'll be getting that message loud and clear from those in dark and medium grey.

I can't see how they can't consider a discount or a price reduction in those sections.

[Abou Sky]

Everything I'm hearing, is that they'll be getting that message loud and clear from those in dark and medium grey.

You have it bang on! I will renew in 109 for $600, currently $900.

If there are no seats in $600 and cheaper range I will just get them off the boards and deal with the hassle.

Hoping for $400 tix, which is $1000 total less of my money they will get.

[narduch]

I just want to make one comment, loyalty does not mean season tickets.

[tiberius]

LOL! Touché.

Everything I'm hearing, is that they'll be getting that message loud and clear from those in dark and medium grey.

I can't see how they can't consider a discount or a price reduction in those sections.

I agree.

Can they pull the trigger and make a big enough cut in prices to actually entice folk to pre-purchase a ticket for every game next year? I don't think they have the guts or the intelligence to realize that a 30%-40% is required in order to nurse this franchise back to health. I have a feeling the best that they can do is a half-hearted, watered down discount of some sort, that won't have much impact - I guess we will have to wait and see what they come up with...

[Pookie]

I also agree that having 112 isn't necessary for a supporters group, and who knows what may happen down the road. We may well, at some point, be given control of our own section, not necessarily 112. I wouldn't trust that to happen under the current regime, but who knows what may happen 5 years from now.

I agree with many sentiments of the OP. As the saying goes, "no pain, no gain". Sometimes in order to effect change, you have to make the uncomfortable decisions. Now I'm not going to tell people how to spend their money, or tell people to stop going to games if that is what they enjoy doing. But it does seem rather odd to me in some ways that some people insist on renewing, even after 6 years of utter futility. You could still go to as many games as your heart desires, and save money, by not renewing. This is the part I don't get. Maybe some people like having their seasons', or have a kind of attachment to their spots that makes them hard to give up. But by renewing, you are lining MLSE's pockets from the get-go, they have your money. Imagine if the most loyal support stopped buying merchandise, concessions, AND only bought walk-up tickets the day of the game? MLSE would be shitting their pants, and it might even be enough for them to think about getting out of the football business altogether.

By doing it this way, you can still go to games, save money, and hurt MLSE where it counts. I suppose the negatives are what people have mentioned (but I don't see BMO being filled at capacity again for a good many years down the road, and we'll have had to have some degree of success too before that happens) and the fact our unified support would be affected a bit. But there are other places in the stadium where RPB could congregate - these days, it doesn't seem to be that hard to find an empty section.

Just my 2 cents.

I would agree.

I would add something that I posted in the members section in that those that are renewing and those that have had enough are actually closer than we think.

Those that are renewing, generally, are those that have the cheapest seats in the house. Relative term of course because our cheapest vantage point is still the most expensive with compared with similar vantage. If not, they are those that are hoping to move to the cheaper section at relocation time.

Essentially, they are on side with the idea that tickets are in desperate need of a price reset.

Those that aren't renewing share that view. They may also feel a hopelessness with the direction of the club and think that the best way to do it is send a message with their wallets.

For me, I'm not renewing unless there is a price reset across the board (and Earl is replaced as the defactor leader of this team). If I renew and relocate to cheaper seats, the guy that takes my overpriced north end seats is still paying a few hundred more than the league average. In a revenue shared league, this is inexcusable.

[Fort York Redcoat]

This potbanging protest talk is self justification for leaving the stadium- something no one wants to do. If you want to paint yourself a martyr for not going I understand- We'd all rather be there but this constant shouting at people who decide they want to stick it out is unacceptable.

And Cityfan, did you not just post the chant to raise awareness of the 96 this week? Now you're saying "Stop singing"? Yeah, I know the difference but the very few left around the stadium won't know anything but the fact we're singing. Mixed message.

I will stop going when I can't afford it or if family responsibility trumps it. I'll stop singing when I have no voice.

I can't believe that this attitude is going to become a minority on a supporters site.