John Carver
Chris Cummins
Preki
Nick Dasovitch
Aron Winter
Paul Mariner
QFT - if Dallas still has a team there is no way, when TO has proven it can pull over 20k a match, would they move or axe this team after 2-3 years of brutal attendances. If anything, the first 3-4 years showed the people are there, but the product is woefully out of whack and now that is being reflected in the stands.Originally Posted by ryan
Winter shouldn't have been sacked in the first place. Not until the end of the season. Not until they did a proper search for someone to step in and continue with the footy philosophy that was set out the season before.
Instead, they sacked him 10 games in, instilled the only person available to them who changed the whole philosophy and playing style of the first team and basically started a rebuild mid-season. A rebuild that will then need to be rebuilt again to start Season 7.
It was a short sighted plan of action to get immediate results - backed by many on this board. Results for a season that was already gone. So now that TFC has what..3-4 results from the manager change, what do we have? No plan of action, a last place club and we still have a bunch of players who can't seem to play a full 90 minutes of football. Some people complain that Winter system was too hard for the players to grasp - well it seems that Mariners boot and run simplified football is also too complicated for these same players to grasp also.
Season 6 was lost when we were 0-7. Season 7 was lost with the manager change. If you can watch this team play and think that there is "something there" that can be built on, please explain to me what that thing is. All I see are a bunch of young kids running around aimlessly while others are just kicking the ball around aimlessly. No build ups in play - all lucky breaks that happen to push forward. No ball possession - just kick and crash to maintain ball control.
Last edited by jabbronies; 08-29-2012 at 11:25 AM.
Agreed. TFC is just another "small market" MLS team now - like Columbus or Dallas. Football is no longer the attraction to buy tickets. It's atmosphere, cheerleaders and other random happenings around the stadium to keep people occupied for 90 minutes.
no, i hate mariner because he plays an ugly, lotteryball style game. preki ball at least had a fair bit of skill, play 11 men behind the ball and move it up field in a steady, controlled fashion. mariner is having us hoof it up field, and hope it bounces our way. if it was strictly results, preki wouldn't have any votes at all, but he does because despite getting wins, they weren't always convincing or entertaining. wins arent always the be-all-end-all of watching a game.
i watched the bruins (my favourite hockey team since i was a kid) win the cup in a game with little drama after the first period, yeah we won, did that stop me from thinking "man.. this is boring"? no at all. if that was a regular season game, i probably would've switched it off, and it would've sucked to watch live, especially if games like that comprised the bulk of our wins.
this answers your question, a lot of us place importance on cups. the league places importance on cups. RSL had a CCL final that sold out a stadium on a wednesday night, with viewership well above the MLS average of some of their premier matches that take place on weekends. when you compare this to a team like birmingham, you need to understand that we don't have relegation to worry about. we don't even have the entry process to worry about and making it anywhere near the top of a table to qualify. we have one, single tournament as our entry process, if we have no league hopes, pushing forward in the CCL makes sense. do you think we're going to spiral out of a 4 game tournament that gets us extra MLS funding and extra revenue because we're in danger of fluffing a match or two in the league? maybe not starting 2 or 3 games without a team comprised entirely of starters? heck, we beat edmonton without even breaking a sweat OR starting most of our first team, vancouver years before that.
i'd like to clarify something to you, disagreeing with you doesn't mean people are bullying you.
i brought up a contrast between dunfield and frings. people gave me shit at first, but after looking at the cold, hard facts, people who said i didn't know what i was talking about have since either agreed, or fallen silent, but im not receiving nearly the amount of criticism i was before.
if anything, it's simply because they don't understand your views. i don't agree with the optimism towards mariner, or with the teams performance, and i don't understand where it's coming from, but all-in-all, what does it matter? if people come around, they come around, if they disagree, they'll disagree. there's an "ignore list" option for a reason if you ever get tired of hearing from the same people.
T-Roogs, what the fuck are you talking about? You think European teams all would pick their domestic title over a Champions' League title?
Look, if you don't want aggressive behavior, you need to realize it's provocative to the point of trolling to take one side and never diverge from it, no matter what arguments or facts are put before you. If people thought you were even attempting to be open minded or objective, this wouldn't be the case. But it sounds like you're being paid by the club, the way you praise this guy.
Last edited by jloome; 08-29-2012 at 01:43 PM.
Have to agree with jabbers on this one. By the time they replaced Winter the season was done. It was a badly timed move to appease the people upset with the start to the season. Problem is that it has sacrificed (or at least threatens to sacrifice) next season too. For whatever reason, Winter wasn't working. A switch to someone who could have continued the idea but improved on the results was needed.
I feel sorry for most of our coaches because they have been thrown under the bus by management even before their times started. Preki was tied to Mo. No way he was going to survive unless Mo did. Winter was tied to Mariner in a power structure nobody could understand. And Mariner is brought in to coach players for a system he doesn't play. Whole thing stinks if you ask me...
Misread the poll, nobody voted Chris Cummins.
It's all speculation, of course, but I don't think another owner could be found. Taking Bell and Rogers out of it there is no other media company looking for content.
And if the NFL can be the top league in the USA with no team in LA, losing Toronto wouldn't affect MLS at all.
Now, as to the question of the thread, maybe we should ask of everyone who's been charged with "running" TFC who was in the best situation to succeed? Were any of them in any position to succeed here?
A lot of folks forget that under Cummins, we were 1 point away from the playoffs... only to have those hopes crushed in the most humiliating way possible, with a 5-1 loss to NYRB, who were at the time one of the worst teams in the league.
Can MLS survive with Toronto? Yes.
Has Toronto been one of the top profiting teams (when many LOSE money) despite being utter shit? Yes.
Revenue sharing exists? Yes.
They can survive without Toronto, but they want our money, no doubt about it. CBC would pick the games back up, they need more content with their problems these days.
You don't grow profits by moving away from one of your top markets. TFC is profitable, who wouldn't want to own something profitable?
Your analogy is bad. Birmingham getting relegated a direct negative impact where as TFC finishing near the bottom has no direct negative impact. In fact - relegation come with major financial losses, where as finishing bottom carries the positive of higher draft picks.
A more apt analogy would be to ask If Birmingham fans would prefer a higher table finish vs a 17th place finish but make it to a Europa Cup final. Even then it's not a direct comparison as higher place finishes in the EPL get more prize money.
I voted for Paul Mariner. The simple fact that I'm nearly able to fall asleep while standing in a supporters section at BMO during a match and the depression that every loss is met with is a testament to how bad of a manager he's become/always been. Aron Winter may have set an all time record for most consecutive losses to start a season, but without 2 of our most important players not even playing a full game together, healthy, in those first 10 games, I don't think it's COMPLETELY fair to judge him as the worst. I know its a coulda woulda shoulda type situation, but at least we were competitive and the football was entertaining, and the stadium was still relatively full. I'm BOREDDDDDDDDDDD...the team is still losing...and we look even worse when doing it.
Being a quality #2 doesn't mean you will be a quality #1. See exhibit Carlos Quieroz for details.
Even with current ownership - if revenue declines from one source, they will make it up from others. Friendlies a one area I suspect we will see a lot more of for this reason.
It's not MLS losing interest I wonder about - it's MLSE. While I suspect they will continue making profits - if they do not, and don't forecast an that they will start, there interest in funding a team will cease.
I do think they see the future profit coming from selling academy players overseas (the real reason for the Academy IMHO). Ajax themselves realized that selling players was were the real money was...
I suspect they are looking at a longer ROI on that investment though - probably in the 5-10 year range.
Winter shuold have been fired, any organization would have fired him. But he should not have been fired untill a proper coach was found, that clearly did not happen. Instead MLSE turned around, gave the job to a guy who should also have been held responsible.
I also do not understand why Winter's number 2 man, did not share Winter's vision? Having the second in command who is a non-beleiver makes not sense.
Last edited by trane; 08-29-2012 at 01:50 PM.
Ok I didn't have to bring it up this time...
Thanks for that. Small consolation on such a terrible memory, though..ugh
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
And Cummins also said that Mo actively interfered towards the end of the season, in tactics and squad selection.
They threatened to sue him for slander but backed away.
I wonder why.
TFC flinched at the first sign of trouble with the implementation of the philosophy set out the year prior. Anyone who thought they would just waltz in and become untouchable team within a year were disillusion. There is always going to be rough times when overhauling a whole franchise the way TFC set out to do. They got scared and botched the whole process.
Obviously Winter had to leave, but only after they found a replacement who could work the system they were building. If they were smart, when they were 0-6 they should've started a proper search for a new manager that would've kept them on the path they had created. IMO that would've taken til mid-late summer, possibly even the fall. Unless you already have someone lined up (which they are not capable of doing as past managerial searches have proven), you don't just find a manager who would fit as soon as you start to look for one. Paul Mariner is not a manager we should have. He shouldn't be a caretaker or the full time boss. He should be taking the the same amount of blame for the mess this team is now in. He was getting the players, that's what his job was. They didn't perform under Winter and they are still not performing under him.
As I've said before there is nothing in his resume, both playing and coaching, that says he can coach possession based system. They players are proving that now. He has proved that as well by constantly reminding the media that we should be playing boot and run.
Last edited by jabbronies; 08-29-2012 at 03:46 PM.
^^Should have gone with Rongen as the interim to keep the philosophy the same while looking for a sutiable coach to continue on the path they started.
^ But that would have made sense.
This poll reminds me of that collgate commercial...
2 out of 3 TFC supporter DONT recommend hiring Mariner as you're head coach..
Last edited by DaBandit; 08-29-2012 at 07:46 PM.
But then whose voice and commentary would make my ears bleed on the GOLTV broadcasts? Nevermind, surely those guys who do GOL's international games would have been asked and, yes, they are more irritating than Rongen.
darren o'dea? prolly the best defender we have ever had?
Thanks for taking the time to compile this chart NBF. First thing that sticks out for me from these stats is that this club has been taking ONE step forward and TWO steps back since its inception into MLS.
It's season six and we're playing for absolutely nothing but to see if we can finish above our inaugural season's 25 pt count (2007). How sad is that? But hey, at least we have a benchmark to surpass.
Worst coach: Mariner
Best coach: Cummins
Moderator
I don't get it either. Winter was the absolute worst manager we ever had, and this team played the worst under his stewardship. I really think a lot of people aren't being totally honest with themselves when they suggest otherwise.
Oh I agree! I'd go so far as to say Carver and Cummins were the most capable managers we've ever had. If either man had more time to work with, who knows what could have happened? Like you said, we were 1 point away from playoffs.
Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.
Mariner at 65%....these poll results are crazy. I voted Winter, but really, is there much to choose between any of these guys?
I wonder if Mariner also causes global warming.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Absolute? Lol
People who don't think Winter was the worst are lying to themselves? Lol
Ridiculous comments. I'm sorry. You're entitled to your opinion but to suggest that people are lying to themselves is arrogant beyond belief.
Some people care about more things than only results.
And if we're being arrogant maybe I'll just suggest that if you think Mariner is better than Winter and that Winters style was ugly then you don't even know what you're watching these days because your footballing mind is stuck in 1980. Lol
I agree that there isn't much to separate these guys. Like somebody mentioned...which shit smells the least.
I don't vote on polls but my vote goes to any coach that employs kick and run football as their main means of attack and defending.
Mariner didn't cause global warmin but I ask you this:
What are his saving graces right now?
Here are the things people praised him for a month ago:
-results (now gone)
-players coach (obvious tension between him and some starters now and he's calling people out in the press)
What's left to praise him for?
Groovy shorts and busted glasses?
Liverpool pedigree?
Lol
Before we run off the rails let's take a breath and realize before things get too heated-
We're discussing if our present coach is the 2nd or 3rd worst coach we've ever had.
It's been said elsewhere that we should probably be aiming higher and looking toward comparing with the rest of the league instead of spending so much time on how much suck this present guy sucks in comparison to the last suck.
Mariner has a chance to improve his "legacy" here before end of season but it's so close between 2nd and 3rd I don't see much use in belaboring it.
It's great seeing the stats for all to see, though.
Carver, Cummins, Dasovic. Better days, indeed.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
my vote for mariner was as much to do with him undermining Winter as it was for the performances under him.
IIRC there was absolutely no way people on here would have accepted Dasovic remaining at the helm beyond his caretaker role, if only we'd canned mo and let Cummins give us some stability. In saying that he wished Robbo luck against us earlier this season so ...........
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