Player acquisitions and Mariner

[TFC Tifoso]

It isn't as simple as "playing 4-3-3" though. If you have heard Rongen and De Klerk talk about their system, you will realise that it isn't as simple as finding "average MLS players". Their system is hell of a lot more complex than the other MLS teams systems.

I did hear them explain it and imo, it was not very complicated at all......defensively, it basically amounted to the point that if a player steps out of his positional range to carry the ball up field, then the player who is positionally immediately in front of him drops back to cover....offensively, players who have the ball should look for and play the ball to teammates running in open spaces (which is what they should be doing anyways - runninng to open space)......its not that difficult......more difficult that the braindead way we're playing now, sure, but teams that use their brains often come away with the results anyways.......

[ManUtd4ever]

Here's my post originally from the player movement thread:



Wrong. We need to look at Mariner's player acquisitions compared with a playoff team's acquisitions. Who is LA's Andy Iro? Does NY have an equivalent? *** crickets ***

Stop comparing Mariner to Winter. Compare his acquisitions to better team's acquisitions.

For example, Mariner picked up Léandre Griffit to play on the wing from the Krew. Sporting KC picked up Bobby Convey to play on the wing from San Jose. Is Griffit equivalent to Bobby Convey? Not even close.

It's even worse when you look at defenders. Would Eddy Viator have a chance with any other MLS squad? Jeremy Hall? Logan Emory? How about the disaster who was Caicedo (who was supposed to solve our defensive woes)?

Look at the players he gave away, almost for nothing:

Nick LaBrocca
Dwayne De Rosario
Nana Attackora
Alan Gordon
Maicon Santos
JDG

It has nothing to do with whether his players would do better under him than Winter. Judge him by a winning team, not a losing team. Would his players stand a chance in a winning MLS squad? Would they even get in? IF they got in, would be be for bench strength? How was the value that he got for his trades? Where is the DeRo equivalent that we got? Maicon Santos equivalent? You see, he massively failed in that department. When Winter was let go, Mariner should have been shown the door as well.

By all accounts, it was Winter that wanted all these moves orchestrated. As for getting rid of JDG's DP contract, that was hailed as a great move by many supporters.

[TFC Tifoso]

Eckersley - doesn't provide value for his cap hit, not worth it
Lambe - average MLS player who is young
Dunfield - works hard, has very little skill
Avila - good player that can't get a game under Mariner
Johnson (I don't like him, but a lot of fans do) - bleow average MLS striker
Hall - mid 20 something who has made a career of going from team to team, not very good
Silva - a good player, best of the list

None of these platers could get a game for Seattle, KC, RSL, SJ, LA ect.

bingo......

[ag futbol]

I can't fully agree with this list. LaBrocca brought Alan Gordon (who brought Johnson, which I agree was a bad trade), so I don't think you can fairly put both on this list.
Maicon Santos brought us Avila who I would take any day over five Maicon Sontos'

I think that's pretty unfair to Santos. Different positions aside, I think it would be a struggle to reason that Eric Avila has a similar impact on the game to what Santos does.

Think people went a little off their rocker with criticisms of him while he was here. For starters, Winter was often playing him out of position which was entirely ridiculous. Second, while he did miss some opportunities he was also one of the few players on the team who had the ability to make something out of nothing. Overall, given his level of salary he is at least worthy of a substitute spot on the team. He's not perfect, but for a team that isn't exactly lighting the world on fire in the goals department, I think he's more than an acceptable piece. DCU is getting something good out of him, why couldn't we?

[ManUtd4ever]

To add balance to this thread, how about crediting Mariner for the acquisitions of notable starters such as Silva, Johnson, Hassli, Lambe, Eckersley, O'Dea, etc.?

No manager in MLS bats .1000 when it comes to player acquisitions. Mariner's track record is definitely respectable thus far.

[ManUtd4ever]

Eckersley - doesn't provide value for his cap hit, not worth it
Lambe - average MLS player who is young
Dunfield - works hard, has very little skill
Avila - good player that can't get a game under Mariner
Johnson (I don't like him, but a lot of fans do) - bleow average MLS striker
Hall - mid 20 something who has made a career of going from team to team, not very good
Silva - a good player, best of the list

None of these platers could get a game for Seattle, KC, RSL, SJ, LA ect.

I'll grant you that Dunfield and Hall are not starters on most MLS clubs.

As for the others, I would wager that they are talented enough to start for the majority of clubs in MLS. I have watched many MLS matches in the last few years that didn't involve TFC, and I have to say, you are seriously overestimating the average level of talent on most rosters throughout the league.

[ManUtd4ever]

You can easily tell which players were Winter players: Koevs and Soolsma.
Frings came from Klinnsmann.

The players that lack technical skill are the ones Mariner picked up.

Winter himself said that he didn't find players. he asked for players, then picked from what Mariner got him. If he got him 10 Andy Iro's, Winter picked one of them.

The real question is, why were there no Bobby Conveys in the mix? I'm sure he was just as available to Mariner as he was to KC.

With all due respect OT, this statement is a completely subjective load of unsubstantiated crap. You have absolutely zero evidence to back that up.

[ag futbol]

I'll grant you that Dunfield and Hall are not starters on most MLS clubs.

As for the others, I would wager that they are talented enough to start for the majority of clubs in MLS. I have watched many MLS matches in the last few years that didn't involve TFC, and I have to say, you are seriously overestimating the average level of talent on most rosters throughout the league.

I tend to disagree in most circumstances there.

Other than Eckersley and Silva, I'd challenge you to find a team currently in a playoff spot where any of those players listed would start and give a compelling reason why. In my mind it's pretty straight forward, most of those players were not starter quality prior to TFC and they aren't starter quality now either. The only guy who consistently started prior to TFC (Johnson) was being pushed heavily for his spot due to inconsistency, which i think would be happening today as well, if he was on a better team than ours.

[TFC07]

To add balance to this thread, how about crediting Mariner for the acquisitions of notable starters such as Silva, Johnson, Hassli, Lambe, Eckersley, O'Dea, etc.?

No manager in MLS bats .1000 when it comes to player acquisitions. Mariner's track record is definitely respectable thus far.

Hassli: Vancouver were planning to get rid of him so they can have cap space to sign more players. TFC were only team willing to take him. So it was no brainer for TFC to acquire him after Danny K was done for the season.

Eckersley: He's making $390K! That's issue a lot of fans here have with Eck. Signing like this kills cap space to bring in quality players.

O'Dea: Too early to judge, but he has bounce around a lot. Giving scouting reports I have read on him, he's just your typical defender who's not comfortable with ball on his feet.

Lambe: Very inconsistent player, but the money he's making, I have no issues with him.

Johnson: He's pretty much tan version of Chad Barrett, but he's an okay pick up. Nothing special to brag about if you're trying to build a case for Mariner.

Silva: High draft pick. It wasn't hardest decision to make to draft Silva.

Mariner has failed to bring in high quality CB and couple of quality attacking players during his 2 years. That's where he fails on this issue.

[ManUtd4ever]

I tend to disagree in most circumstances there.

Other than Eckersley and Silva, I'd challenge you to find a team currently in a playoff spot where any of those players listed would start and give a compelling reason why. In my mind it's pretty straight forward, most of those players were not starter quality prior to TFC and they aren't starter quality now either. The only guy who consistently started prior to TFC (Johnson) was being pushed heavily for his spot due to inconsistency, which i think would be happening today as well, if he was on a better team than ours.

We'll agree to disagree. I've watched more than enough MLS football to feel comfortable with my assertion. The players I referred to are more than skilled enough to earn starting roles on the majority of clubs in the league. Perhaps not the elite clubs, but definitely the rest.

[starter]

Mariner failed to secure a decent CB for the squad by the start of the season, the most needed position at the time, contributing to the team awful start and Winters demise.
He has since failed to formulate the club direction, got rid of players capable of playing 433, and is turning TFC into a track & field team. It does not look good.

[Canary10]

I can't judge Amerikwa by the ONE game we've all seen him play!

I think you can get a good sense of how someone plays after one game (he's had a few games actually). If you don't rate Johnson, then you have a place where Mariner has failed - we've not had a proper second striker all year. Which is part of the reason I find it odd that we insist on playing a two striker formation.

On the CB issue, Matt Hedges and Austin Berry are both starters now with Dallas and Chicago respectively. Berry scored the winner against us a few weeks ago. We could have had either of those players in the 2012 draft. We went with Silva instead, who may be a decent player, but we absolutely knew that CB was our problem. Why wouldn't we have drafted one of these two guys? We could have saved ourselves a lot of trouble, gotten a player cheap, who would be with us for a long time and potentially be the next Omar Gonzalez.

[Beach_Red]

You can easily tell which players were Winter players: Koevs and Soolsma.
Frings came from Klinnsmann.

The players that lack technical skill are the ones Mariner picked up.

Winter himself said that he didn't find players. he asked for players, then picked from what Mariner got him. If he got him 10 Andy Iro's, Winter picked one of them.

The real question is, why were there no Bobby Conveys in the mix? I'm sure he was just as available to Mariner as he was to KC.

What makes you so sure? There may be plenty going on behind the scenes we are unaware of. TFC has had plenty of rumours in its history of agents being too involved and even of kickbacks and shady dealings (remember all the "Mista-Preki" rumours?). We really have no idea.

[Ultra & Proud]

Wow! Another thread filled with schoolgirl-styled whining and ranting over the same shit covered in about 20 other threads. Amazing.

I think I'll just leave this here:

[narduch]

Wow! Another thread filled with schoolgirl-styled whining and ranting over the same shit covered in about 20 other threads. Amazing.

I think I'll just leave this here:

Maybe you should take a tissue for your self because nothing is worse than whining about whining.

Let the people that want to discuss this issue discuss it. You don't have to be a douchebag about it.

[Ultra & Proud]

Maybe you should take a tissue for your self because nothing is worse than whining about whining.

Let the people that want to discuss this issue discuss it. You don't have to be a douchebag about it.

Yes. Yes I do.

Especially when every thread gets side tracked by the same line of talk. Winter got to shitstorm it through more than one half of last season and no one said boo. Mariner gets in and this line of talk starts before he managed 5 matches. Some people are already questing O'Dea and saying Mariner still hasn't filled the CB spot, yet O'Dea hasn't played 1 minute here yet. Everyone should give Mariner the rest of this season to see what he's got then the winter window to make moves and if he bombs out like Winter next season then he gets sent on his way in the same fashion.

Or this pointless complaining can continue and there can be 100+ threads that all diverge into the same thing. Might as well merge them all together and get the first 500 page thread in RBP board history.

This is a supporters forum and group. So be supportive and give people a chance.

[Auzzy]

Yes. Yes I do.

Especially when every thread gets side tracked by the same line of talk. Winter got to shitstorm it through more than one half of last season and no one said boo. Mariner gets in and this line of talk starts before he managed 5 matches. Some people are already questing O'Dea and saying Mariner still hasn't filled the CB spot, yet O'Dea hasn't played 1 minute here yet. Everyone should give Mariner the rest of this season to see what he's got then the winter window to make moves and if he bombs out like Winter next season then he gets sent on his way in the same fashion.

Or this pointless complaining can continue and there can be 100+ threads that all diverge into the same thing. Might as well merge them all together and get the first 500 page thread in RBP board history.

This is a supporters forum and group. So be supportive and give people a chance.

^ This thread was created (BY A MARINER SUPPORTER!!!) specifically to keep these discussions out of the other threads, especially the TFC player player movement thread. So give it a rest if people want to chat about it in here, eh? Nobody is forcing you to read this thread. If another thread also gets too sidetracked, again it can be split between these ongoing issues & more specific topics.

[Red CB Toronto]

That number....120....makes me sad and points to one of the real issues.

Sigh.

Well when Darren O'Deay and Freddie Hall make their first team debuts it raise the total to my count of 119 players who have suited up for at least one minute in a competitive match, plus there is around 15 more who never got off the bench.While this a concerning number to us as it shows how much of this revolving door stuff has gone on with the Reds, I think while we should not let them off the hook, we also not loose to much sleep over as at the end of the day this is suppose to be about having fun and from my standpoint if you are not, what's the point.

[BHTC Mike]

Yes. Yes I do.

You really do.

If you just judged by this thread you'd think that Paul Mariner ran our team from January 2011 to May 2012 not Aron Winter. That it wasn't Aron Winter who complained about "lack of quality" or decided "now I start making some trades" in the process of playing more players in an MLS season THAN ANY TEAM EVER (even Mo's!). You'd think that TFC doesn't operate in an environment of salary budgets, domestic player quotas, and legacy contracts. That 4-4-4 (during a run of 7 away games to 5 home games) is worse than 1-0-9 (and losing 5 straight home games to start a season).

It's pretty much exactly what was always gonna happen: no record of Mariner's was ever going to be good enough for people still hung up on "the plan" and, after any losing streak, the knives would come out. The fact that that losing streak came against the hottest team in the league (who also beat the last four teams they met in addition to us) and in an away game we lead for 55 minutes - longer than we lead under Winter all season - and was sandwiched around a Champions League THRASHING like we've never seen before makes it all the more laughable.

For those keeping score (who understand the restrictions you face building a roster in MLS):

Hassli - an emergency signing not planned for to be sure. Did we pay too high a price? Maybe, but it's gonna be a while before we know whether he works out or DannyK comes back and what our draft pick ends up equaling. In a "best possible" scenario we actually could end up with TWO difference maker designated players at forward and not have to rely exclusively on one of them. That may seem like a luxury but, since you can never count on either being available, could be a real advantage on a team that wants to compete all season.

O'Dea - not the "boss man" world class CB of our dreams but a player with the potential to be a long term solution where we've never had any continuity. We'll have to see how he works out and what sort of money he's on but, again, this could be one of the best TFC signings ever.

Wiedeman - GA player so he's FREE for now and has an opportunity to show he belongs in this league while we wait for him to graduate. We acquired him as a throw-in in a deal that got Julian De Guzman off the books early instead of letting him leave for nothing in the off season. Is he a better option to invest in than Soolsma or Plata? I'm not sure but he is domestic, costs less (for now), and Mariner seems to have faith in him. We'll see if that faith is justified over the next year or so. Most likely he'll be the next victim of a too high GA salary like Avila and we'll move on to another option; everything he contributes until then is a bonus.

Amarikwa - cost us virtually nothing and is basically on a half season trial. He HAS contributed as a depth player on a championship team before. This is exactly the sort of guy a bad MLS team looking to improve, with limited budget and roster options, has to give a shot to. Most won't work out but the ones that do are worth their weight in gold because any player of value so close to the league minimum, without other options, can be kept around for peanuts and fills a role on the team. And, for what it's worth, I LIKE the fact that he's bounced out of a couple teams already: he knows this is his last chance to stick in this league and show he belongs. Things seemed to be working out for him in Colorado before the coaching change - he's definitely more of a Smith player than a Pareja player - and probably has a better chance at success than a 2nd or 3rd round draft pick.

Hall - finally gives us an actual back-up keeper after Frei's injury; sorry Academy true believers: nothing I've seen from Roberts convinces me he's ready or would benefit from being thrown in. Using an international spot is probably more resources than you'd prefer to but if Mariner's comfortable and we're finding "good enough" domestics to fill out the depth spots on the rest of the roster, it's not the end of the world. In the end, MLS's contract rules mean that we can cut him before contracts become guaranteed next year if Frei comes back and we can't move one of either him or Kocic for a reasonable return.

This is how you build a roster in MLS. If that's not good enough for you maybe you're better off not following a team in the league. It's going to be early next season before we know whether most of these moves worked out and saying today that "the team is worse than it was before the transfer window" ignores the process of working towards the team you want. Yes, our midfield was "more talented" with Julian De Guzman. It was also saddled with a player taking up $350K of budget space and a further $1.6mil in real money (that still isn't free to spend on other DPs). DUNFIELD, a guy on MLS bench wages, is giving us starter minutes and better performances than JDG consistently could (even if he never equals Julian at his best). If getting rid of inconsistent performers who weren't holding down positions like Julian, Soolsma, Plata, ACEVAL(!), and Burgos gives you the flexibility to acquire TWO STARTERS and a bunch of budget depth that's good business.

Forza Mariner.

[ManUtd4ever]

Winter got to shitstorm it through more than one half of last season and no one said boo. Mariner gets in and this line of talk starts before he managed 5 matches. Some people are already questing O'Dea and saying Mariner still hasn't filled the CB spot, yet O'Dea hasn't played 1 minute here yet. Everyone should give Mariner the rest of this season to see what he's got then the winter window to make moves and if he bombs out like Winter next season then he gets sent on his way in the same fashion.

If you just judged by this thread you'd think that Paul Mariner ran our team from January 2011 to May 2012 not Aron Winter. That it wasn't Aron Winter who complained about "lack of quality" or decided "now I start making some trades" in the process of playing more players in an MLS season THAN ANY TEAM EVER (even Mo's!). You'd think that TFC doesn't operate in an environment of salary budgets, domestic player quotas, and legacy contracts. That 4-4-4 (during a run of 7 away games to 5 home games) is worse than 1-0-9 (and losing 5 straight home games to start a season).

It's pretty much exactly what was always gonna happen: no record of Mariner's was ever going to be good enough for people still hung up on "the plan" and, after any losing streak, the knives would come out. The fact that that losing streak came against the hottest team in the league (who also beat the last four teams they met in addition to us) and in an away game we lead for 55 minutes - longer than we lead under Winter all season - and was sandwiched around a Champions League THRASHING like we've never seen before makes it all the more laughable.

[Thomas]

I don't know about Forza Mariner, but I agree with most of your statements. I don't understand why Mariner, after only a hand full of games as coach, is getting this kind of vitriol. On the other hand, if PM's record is as bad or worse than AW by the end of the season, by all means...off with his head.

You really do.

If you just judged by this thread you'd think that Paul Mariner ran our team from January 2011 to May 2012 not Aron Winter. That it wasn't Aron Winter who complained about "lack of quality" or decided "now I start making some trades" in the process of playing more players in an MLS season THAN ANY TEAM EVER (even Mo's!). You'd think that TFC doesn't operate in an environment of salary budgets, domestic player quotas, and legacy contracts. That 4-4-4 (during a run of 7 away games to 5 home games) is worse than 1-0-9 (and losing 5 straight home games to start a season).

It's pretty much exactly what was always gonna happen: no record of Mariner's was ever going to be good enough for people still hung up on "the plan" and, after any losing streak, the knives would come out. The fact that that losing streak came against the hottest team in the league (who also beat the last four teams they met in addition to us) and in an away game we lead for 55 minutes - longer than we lead under Winter all season - and was sandwiched around a Champions League THRASHING like we've never seen before makes it all the more laughable.

For those keeping score (who understand the restrictions you face building a roster in MLS):

Hassli - an emergency signing not planned for to be sure. Did we pay too high a price? Maybe, but it's gonna be a while before we know whether he works out or DannyK comes back and what our draft pick ends up equaling. In a "best possible" scenario we actually could end up with TWO difference maker designated players at forward and not have to rely exclusively on one of them. That may seem like a luxury but, since you can never count on either being available, could be a real advantage on a team that wants to compete all season.

O'Dea - not the "boss man" world class CB of our dreams but a player with the potential to be a long term solution where we've never had any continuity. We'll have to see how he works out and what sort of money he's on but, again, this could be one of the best TFC signings ever.

Wiedeman - GA player so he's FREE for now and has an opportunity to show he belongs in this league while we wait for him to graduate. We acquired him as a throw-in in a deal that got Julian De Guzman off the books early instead of letting him leave for nothing in the off season. Is he a better option to invest in than Soolsma or Plata? I'm not sure but he is domestic, costs less (for now), and Mariner seems to have faith in him. We'll see if that faith is justified over the next year or so. Most likely he'll be the next victim of a too high GA salary like Avila and we'll move on to another option; everything he contributes until then is a bonus.

Amarikwa - cost us virtually nothing and is basically on a half season trial. He HAS contributed as a depth player on a championship team before. This is exactly the sort of guy a bad MLS team looking to improve, with limited budget and roster options, has to give a shot to. Most won't work out but the ones that do are worth their weight in gold because any player of value so close to the league minimum, without other options, can be kept around for peanuts and fills a role on the team. And, for what it's worth, I LIKE the fact that he's bounced out of a couple teams already: he knows this is his last chance to stick in this league and show he belongs. Things seemed to be working out for him in Colorado before the coaching change - he's definitely more of a Smith player than a Pareja player - and probably has a better chance at success than a 2nd or 3rd round draft pick.

Hall - finally gives us an actual back-up keeper after Frei's injury; sorry Academy true believers: nothing I've seen from Roberts convinces me he's ready or would benefit from being thrown in. Using an international spot is probably more resources than you'd prefer to but if Mariner's comfortable and we're finding "good enough" domestics to fill out the depth spots on the rest of the roster, it's not the end of the world. In the end, MLS's contract rules mean that we can cut him before contracts become guaranteed next year if Frei comes back and we can't move one of either him or Kocic for a reasonable return.

This is how you build a roster in MLS. If that's not good enough for you maybe you're better off not following a team in the league. It's going to be early next season before we know whether most of these moves worked out and saying today that "the team is worse than it was before the transfer window" ignores the process of working towards the team you want. Yes, our midfield was "more talented" with Julian De Guzman. It was also saddled with a player taking up $350K of budget space and a further $1.6mil in real money (that still isn't free to spend on other DPs). DUNFIELD, a guy on MLS bench wages, is giving us starter minutes and better performances than JDG consistently could (even if he never equals Julian at his best). If getting rid of inconsistent performers who weren't holding down positions like Julian, Soolsma, Plata, ACEVAL(!), and Burgos gives you the flexibility to acquire TWO STARTERS and a bunch of budget depth that's good business.

Forza Mariner.

[prizby]

Nice question.

Weaknesses:

Ryan Johnson isn't a very good player IMO. His off the ball movement is poor, and he gets far too frustrated with himself and destracted from the game. He spends way too much time watching replays on the big screen and not enough time playing the game and concentrating. He isn't consistent enough and his finishing, as we all know, is poor. I'd much prefer Koev's/Hassli and another (I would give Silva a chance as second striker). Johnson is no more than a bench player IMO.

Until thid last week I'd also add in CB - but we need to see how O'Dea plays, and I can't judge that right now. I'd prefer to see Ecks play at FB, where he is more effective.

I'd also personally like to see the two wide midfielders play WIDER than Mariner has them playing. Lambe needs to sit more on the touchline than he does. He gets crowded out too often playing inside. But the midfielders we have, I would say are pretty good. Frings and Dunfield play well together, and a mix of Lambe, Silva, or Avila is a good midfield.

I'd replace Johnson in a heartbeat, though!

lets see, it was RJ9's movement that left silva all alone when it was 1-0 toronto in chicago

a lot of RJ9's off the ball movement gave Koef space to score a lot of his goals

RJ9 hustles and works his tail off, reminds me of a chat barrett, but he can set up goals and his finishing is a tad better

[prizby]

I don't know about Forza Mariner, but I agree with most of your statements. I don't understand why Mariner, after only a hand full of games as coach, is getting this kind of vitriol. On the other hand, if PM's record is as bad or worse than AW by the end of the season, by all means...off with his head.

its because we were promised a sexy style and now we are direct and long ball...the things we hated a few years ago...i think fans are a bit greedy wanting to win with the swagger...who knows

[Thomas]

I don't mind watching a nice pretty style of play, but at the end of the day, I care most about results.

[BHTC Mike]

Wrong. We need to look at Mariner's player acquisitions compared with a playoff team's acquisitions. Who is LA's Andy Iro? Does NY have an equivalent?

Rafa Marquez?

You keep bringing in Winter because that's the only way Mariner looks good. How does he compare to Bruce Arena? Frank Yallop? Sigi Schmidt?

Good to see your intellectual consistency. A year and a bit of "we don't know, Winter could be the next Jason Kreis" becomes "is Paul Mariner as good as Bruce Arena" after being in charge for 13 games. And, for the record, he compares pretty well. Better than Winter did to Jason Kreis.

There is a reason you aren't mentioning any of those guys.

He may not have but I've mentioned Yallop mulitple times in the "Possession Tactics" thread as an example of the sort of guy who plays pragmatic MLS football with MLS players. He'd be run out of town here before he could have ever done anything like he's accomplished in San Jose because to cries of "too Canadian", "too English", "too MLS 1.0", and "too boring."

Why'd he decide that Bobby Convey, the guy you're holding up as the gold standard of MLS aquisitions, was surplus to requirements? That's exactly the sort of move that WAS bitched about by San Jose supporters and would have the peanut gallery in an uproar if it happened here.

Or to put it another way, would you rather have any of those three or Mariner? I know what my answer would be.

Right, because that makes a lot of sense. We're playing Fantasy Manager draft now. We can't compare Mariner to the coach who immeadiately preceeded him but can compare him, after 13 games in charge, to three of the most successful MLS coaches of all time.

Look, to all the people who don't want Paul Mariner as head coach of TFC: we get it. You don't like him. You've already made up your mind.

Guess what? I didn't like the hire of Aron Winter. I was never convinced by him either and didn't think, based on all past evidence around the league, his program was likely to be successful. But that was the direction TFC decided to go in early 2011 and, even though I was unsure, I consistently said that we'd have to wait and see if he worked out because he had been handed his shot and all we could do was hope that he'd be successful. EVEN IN THE FACE OF A SIX WIN SEASON I thought the need for stability and continuity (and a better second half mixed with unlikely CCL success) closed any discussion over replacing him during the past offseason. It literally took a RECORD SETTING run of league futility for senior management to bite the bullet and acknowledge their mistake.

Here's the thing: if you're right, all you've got to do is wait. There's no need to invent a narrative of failure where none exists. Rather than trying to win the argument and convince everyone else that PAULMARINERISTHEENGLISHHOOFBALLMERCHANTDEVILWEREGO NNALOSEFOREVER why not just sit back and see what happens. Believe it or not, winning an argument on the RPB forum isn't going to decided the future of TFC. If Paul Mariner can't get this team AT LEAST up to midtable respectability and consistently competitive by the summer of next year - not San Jose, KC, or RSL good but at least what Rennie's done in Vancouver or Klopas in Chicago - he'll be sacrificed on the alter of season ticket renewals like so many before him. If, after six years of bad to mediocre and two years of FREAKING HORRIBLE, being midtable next year isn't good enough for you maybe you should, for your own good, just take a break from TFC.

Personally, I already see a TFC that is more consistently competitive at home than they've been in two years and actually has a chance of occasionally winning on the road. That's a step forward and constitutes success in my eyes. I don't care if that's achieved playing tactically simpler football* or makes our stats look unimpressive because I don't think either of those things prevents us from moving towards a more sophisticated style once results are stabilized and we've got an actual team capable of playing good football. Being a good team was always going to be a multi-year project but there's no need to be horrible in the interim.

*Not that I accept that what Mariner's doing is necessarily tactically simpler. It requires less technical ability and places a greater emphasis on athleticism but, to be honest, I found Winter's football to be incredibly naive tactically when confronted with the realities of his team and opponents. Being tactically adaptable and able to craft a formation and game plan opponent by opponent is more tactically advanced than just insisting that TFC play "their football" game in, game out. But, if you rely on catchphrases and can only see "hoofball" in how Mariner is setting up his team you're gonna miss all of that.

[Blizzard]

Same problem we've had for a number of years now and unlike a CB, is worthy of using a DP slot; a play-making AM. Not the pseudo-forward types like we have been using for the past few years (Silva, Avila, DeRo). A position lacking since Guevara left.

Pablo Vitti was the heir apparent to Guevara. I think our midfield would have been in a much better position if we could have offered him enough to stay after his loan period / Independiente contract ran out. He was offered a contract at a rather large cut so he decided to go elsewhere.

[jazzy]

all i know is andy iro, leandre griffitt and any other player that has suited up for the reds during their first six years has been kind enough to sign my photos for my all-time tfc collection, which is over 120 players.

and counting

[Pookie]

I am still stuck on the first page of this thread pondering t-boy's statement that Mariner is getting more out of the same players than Winter. It's as if last season's post transfer window improvement and the CCL run never happened. As for explaining it, Whoop has it nailed.

[Benficachop20]

How about the players that ARE good that Mariner has brought here:

Eckersley
Lambe
Dunfield
Avila
Johnson (I don't like him, but a lot of fans do)
Hall
Silva

lmao sorry but this is suppose to be a good list? Hall?? we're talking about Jeremy Hall right? lmfao. seriously are u trolling? surely i can't be the only one here that thinks Hall is by far one of the worst defenders we've ever signed (and that's saying a lot) the guy gets beaten in every single one on one battle that its seriously shocking how many times he gets beaten every game.

Ecks. i know people here like him but i don't find anything impressive of a defender running around like a headless chicken most of the time, even when he has the ball he either kicks it up to no one or he just runs straight to a defender and loses possession, plus the number of reckless tackles, he's just a red card waiting to happen plus his salary.

Lambe is a so so player, i would take Soolsma and Plata over him though any day.

Dunfield - gone from everybody agreeing he's shit to being the most overrated player on the team. Just look at how other teams completely dominate our midfield game in game out and Dunfield plays a role along with Frings thats vital to winning possession and those 2 are not doing the job.

Avilla - a very average player that offers next to nothing and is often a ghost most of the match.

Johnson - well.... some good qualities but some very bad ones as well, should be placed as a winger rather than a striker.

Silva is a keeper.

ur list just convinced me more that Mariner isn't the man for the job just based on player he's brought in.

[TFC07]

People don't realize that reason why there are people like me who are not pro-Mariner because Mariner had 2 years to build this team (this transfer window he has failed again to upgrade talent level of this team). So giving him another season more is not right thing to do since Mariner hasn't earned another chance. Winter is fired and guy who's responsible of bringing in players didn't get an ounce of blame. No accountability or no responsibility. But of course, let's give guy who has been bringing in shit players then lied to our faces when he took over coaching duties that he wasn't going to change much how we played (style wise) another chance. Mariner needs to be held accountable as well. You can't point your fingers only on Winter alone. That's reason why people like me want Mariner and rest of FO gone end of this season. They're cancer in this club not players who give it their all!