Player acquisitions and Mariner

[BHTC Mike]

at the end of the day they may spend money but for some reason cant get someone with experiance?

Because this is a young league that just went through a 9 team expansion, nearly doubling in size, in 7 years. There really aren't many of those people out there who don't already have jobs or serious baggage (like Rongen, Preki, and Mo). Look around this league, look at what has been successful for the last decade, and you'll find that taking a chance on new unproven coaches is pretty much how you do business in MLS most of the time. It's the same as I said upthread about players.

Top to bottom:

San Jose - Yallop; experienced MLS Cup winner but was coming off a bad spell at LA and Canada, was considered risky for a long time, took a while to come good again
Salt Lake - Kreis; totally inexperienced before his appointment without any time as an assistant, lots of experience in MLS as a player though
New York - Backe; highly experienced foreign coach, has done well but is still complained about vociferously by his own fans
Houston - Kinnear; no head coach experience before inheriting Yallop's cup winning San Jose side, lots of experience in MLS/NA as a player and assistant
Kansas City - Vermes; no head coach experience before moving down from Technical Director position to take over the team, lots of experience in MLS as a player
Seattle - Schmid; highly experienced MLS Cup winner with a deep resume in NA soccer, was a total coup for Seattle to lure him away from Columbus
DC United - Olsen; no head coach experience before his appointment with minimal time as an assistant, lots of experience in MLS as a player
Chicago - Klopas; minimal head coach experience in INDOOR soccer before moving down from the Technical Director, lots of experince in MLS/NA as a player
Vancouver - Rennie; no MLS head coach experience, a very good record as an upcoming young head coach in lower tier NA soccer
Los Angeles - Arena; highly experienced MLS Cup winner with a deep resume in NA soccer, was coming off a middling run in New York prior
Montreal - Marsch; no head coach experience before his appointment with minimal time as an assistant in US nat team set up, very experienced in MLS as a player
Columbus - Warzycha; no head coach experience before his appointment, extensive experience in MLS as a player and assistant
Chivas - Fraser; no head coach experience before his appointment but reasonable experience as an assistant, extensive experience in MLS as a player
Colorado - Pareja; no head coach experience before his appointment, extensive experience in MLS as a player and assistant
New England - Heaps; totally inexperienced before his appointment without any time as an assistant, very experienced in MLS as a player
Dallas - Hyndman; no professional head coach experience, extensive head coach experience in American collegiate soccer (similar to Arena and Schmid's prior to MLS)
Philly - Hackworth (interim); no professional head coach experience, some collegiate and youth head coach experience, minimal assistant coach experience in MLS
Portland - Wilkinson (interim); no MLS head coach experience, reasonable USL head coach and assistant coach experience
Toronto - Mariner; no MLS head coach experience, minimal foreign head coach experience, extensive experience in MLS as an assistant

Notice a trend here? We fit right in with what the rest of the league is doing. 9 out of 19 with no head coach experience prior to their hire. Only 4 out of 19 with previous MLS head coach experience.

Would Bob Bradley be nice? Sure, but he's got bigger ambitions (and doesn't have a reputation for pretty football either). Would luring a Kinnear, Arena, or Schmid be nice? Sure, but try convincing me that's possible. Yallop never would have got the time he was given in San Jose here. Maybe we could get Gary Smith back to North America... but the peanut gallery would surely proclaim him too backwards tactically.

Paul Mariner is exactly the sort of guy MLS teams are giving a chance to. There's no guarantees with any appointment - you could end up with a Martin Vasquez! - but he's been given the reins and is doing good enough already that, short of a complete implosion in our last 12 games, he should have an off season to build his team and get them playing the way he wants.

Recently fired head coaches include guys like De Los Cobos and Nowak who both had head coach experience. The only guys who were even moderately successful before being fired were Nowak, John Spencer, and Gary Smith. The lesson should be that, right now, MLS experience as a player, assistant, or head coach gives you a better chance at success than foreign head coach experience. Short of that, it's best to go with someone from the North American collegiate or professional pyramid. Hans Backe is literally the ONLY current example of going outside the North American pyramid for a head coach and having it work. Since there's not many available people with experience as successful MLS head coaches teams are forced to give someone new a chance. And the coaches who come in with grand pronouncements about playing "better" technical football like Vasquez, De Los Cobos, Pareja*, and Winter have the highest flameout rate and tend to make their teams worse.

But here's the real kicker:

ARON WINTER; NO senior head coach experience, NO experience of NA/MLS as a player or assistant

But he gets the keys for a year and a bit and the chance to overhaul our whole club from top to bottom and loyalty even in the face of historic failure and BAD FOOTBALL? Why? Because Jurgen Klinsmann says so? Because Tom A and the board got the results back from a marketing survey where our "educated fan base" (who know shit fuck all about the rest of the league) decided that they'd rather lose beautifully than win ugly? Because we have a fan base who still look towards Europe for answers rather than inside their own league?

And now, after 13 games in charge where he's won more than he's lost, only lost one home game, and won more away league games than Aron Winter EVER did there's already a drum beat for Paul Mariner's removal? All because it's not pretty enough? Not part of a (MARKETING DRIVEN and INORGANIC) "master plan" devised poolside in LA? Because some people have decided that they have a magical ability to see the future and current results are some sort of illusion? Because every bad signing or trade of the Winter era surely had to be Mariner's fault rather than the fault of the guy he was subordinate to or the fault of a truly illusionary and overambitious plan?

This is Alice in Wonderland shit. Seriously. I hope Exiled is enjoying his time away from the boards and laughing profusely when he lurks (like I used to) because he'd be losing his mind if he still participated in this forum.

*Jury's still out on him. But apparently our win over Colorado doesn't count because they're now "creampuffs" since ditching Smith's ugly football.

p.s. Houston lost 2-0 last night in NY. They better fire Kinnear.

[v00d00daddy]

^^^^

Why are you comparing him to Winter?

Winter deserved to be fired.

How can you (someone I assume follows the league a hell of a lot more than most...me for sure) not attribute any fault or blame to Mariner in his job as the man tasked to get us players while Winter was coach?

It's obvious that you hated the "poolside devised" plan of attractive, possession based, attacking football. To each their own. But please don't mistake your greater knowledge of this league as anything close to objectivity. What does your knowledge of this league have to do with the brand of football I want to see?

Also...for all your insight on this league...do you think Mariners current approach tactically, stylistically, and player acquisition wise, will lead to success in this league?

Will the way he wants to play and the type of players he's bringing in to play it translate to success?

Also...who was Mariner subordinate (in terms of signings and trades) to during the time that Winter was coach?

Do you know something about the how the dynamic between Winter, Mariner and Cochrane worked? If so...please share.

[ensco]

^BHTC, whoever you are, that is one high quality rant!

Mostly bang on, too. I don't love Mariner, but I am sorta kinda impressed so far, by the results (imagine that as a criterion). Don't let the endless high school debaters get you down ... "what does your knowledge of MLS have to do with the kind of football I want to see?" is symptomatic of everything that is wrong here.

We are part of the problem, I have come to realize. We are getting the team we deserve.

[v00d00daddy]

^BHTC, whoever you are, that is one high quality rant!

Mostly bang on, too. I don't love Mariner, but I am sorta kinda impressed so far, by the results (imagine that as a criterion). Don't let the endless high school debaters get you down ... "what does your knowledge of MLS have to do with the kind of football I want to see?" is symptomatic of everything that is wrong here.

We are part of the problem, I have come to realize. We are getting the team we deserve.

Wow. Name calling now?

Why don't you take a stab at answering my questions about Mariner that I posed to him?

As opposed to calling me a high schooler.

Why don't you go on record as to whether we will be successful with mariner and his current methods for getting results?

Do you also believe that the philosophy overhaul that TFC made was nothing but a smokeshow?

Cause if it was then I'm guilty and I'm a fish that took it hook line and sinker.

But I won't make that mistake again.

But if you guys wanna shit on people who want more than what we're getting that's your choice.

I fear you'll be doing it in a 1/4 full BMO field in a couple of years. If not sooner.

Because if they continue to give us ugly soccer and shitty results that's just what will happen.

[denime]

[Pookie]

Because this is a young league that just went through a 9 team expansion, nearly doubling in size, in 7 years. There really aren't many of those people out there who don't already have jobs or serious baggage (like Rongen, Preki, and Mo). Look around this league, look at what has been successful for the last decade, and you'll find that taking a chance on new unproven coaches is pretty much how you do business in MLS most of the time. It's the same as I said upthread about players.
...

And now, after 13 games in charge where he's won more than he's lost, only lost one home game, and won more away league games than Aron Winter EVER did there's already a drum beat for Paul Mariner's removal? All because it's not pretty enough? Not part of a (MARKETING DRIVEN and INORGANIC) "master plan" devised poolside in LA? Because some people have decided that they have a magical ability to see the future and current results are some sort of illusion? Because every bad signing or trade of the Winter era surely had to be Mariner's fault rather than the fault of the guy he was subordinate to or the fault of a truly illusionary and overambitious plan?

This is Alice in Wonderland shit. Seriously. I hope Exiled is enjoying his time away from the boards and laughing profusely when he lurks (like I used to) because he'd be losing his mind if he still participated in this forum...

So, this Mariner guy. He collected a pay cheque for 18 months under Winter... doing what?

Nothing apparently. Clean slate since he got the keys.

No one is saying it isn't pretty enough. But your grandiose statements of how improved we are at home... when Preki led the team to a 6-0-4 record 2 years ago.... are disingenuous at best.

Similarly, all this talk about possession and the fact that San Jose is winning without it ignores the fact that San Jose has a much stronger backline than Mariner has assembled.. sorry, he was just collecting a check to do nothing... than Winter assembled.

It isn't about Winter v Mariner. It's about whether Mariner can set a vision and has a better chance to succeed than Klinsmann's vision. It's about whether any of us are willing to overlook the organizational shortcomings inherent in this club (lack of scouting, reliance on Canadian players, etc) and put all our faith in the "next guy" to take the reigns. Many of us are tired of using hope as a strategy.

Sorry if that offends you.

[Richard]

SNIP

You make some good points, but please dont tell me an organization has to go through 7+ coaches to find success(and 6 years of utter shit). Other teams find these individuals it seems on a dime(just like quality players), yet we cant get a competent group of individuals? You would think rolling the dice this many times would result in somthing other than "Snake eyes".

[BHTC Mike]

I bring this point up as an example of what I think can get discussions off the rails. This position is not grounded in any objective measure yet is stated as matter of fact conclusion.

No, but it's a great example of your consistent inability to be intellectually honest and derail things with petty point making. You're not arguing with Roogsy anymore and now I see why he used to get so frustrated.

When I specifically offer "Personally, I [...] see" as a qualification that should be a pretty good indication that I'm offering a subjective evaluation that people are free to disagree with rather than "matter of fact conclusion". Not happy with simply overstating my position though you go on to extend the meaning of "constitutes success" by making it sound like I'm doing anything other than making a limited evaluation of the time Mariner's been in charge so far and instead proclaiming him successful long term already.

And for the record, the last two years is a specific reference to the post-Preki period since late summer 2010. Rather than getting hung up on pendantic bullshit like "technically Preki's home unbeaten streak lasted into August and the end of that (actually the weaker part IIRC) was in the calendar window of the last two years" you could take the more obvious reading. And the best part: I couldn't make it to either the Colorado or Houston wins so I literally did not see two of rare home league wins under Winter. Which is exactly what I said. I did see five straight home losses to start the season this year.

Point 1 - Competitive @ Home in last two years

Mariner (2012 Home Record) 2-1-2
Winter (Post - July Transfer Window Home Record) 2-1-3

Yes, you're right. If you cherry pick the one, brief stretch of decent league results Winter ever achieved, including some away draws and a win in Columbus too, it's more or less the same as Paul Mariner's entire tenure to date. But here's the thing: you complete overstate the argument people are making.

First, MOST PEOPLE CONSIDERED THAT STRETCH UNDER WINTER "GOOD ENOUGH" and weren't even contemplating his removal even AFTER a terrible spring and early summer. I didn't believe in "the plan", didn't think it was likely to be successful, and didn't have confidence in Winter. And I STILL THOUGHT he had to be given a chance and was satisfied with that stretch as a sign of progress. If he didn't lose nine straight league games he'd still have a job.

Second, NO ONE SERIOUS THINKS 4-4-4 UNDER MARINER IS "PROOF" HE'LL BE SUCCESSFUL IN THE FUTURE. No one can predict the future. Not you, not me, not anyone. All we can do is look backwards at the evidence we have. When it comes to the future all we can do is hope. I have more confidence in Mariner than I did in Winter but ultimately that's irrelevant; he'll be judged on the results he achieves.

I have 13 games to evaluate Paul Mariner on. In 13 games he's done "good enough" to enjoy my support just like, in his best 13 games, Aron Winter did even though he'd had longer to work with the team and achieved worse results overall.

It's called intellectual consistency. You should try it.

Point 2 - constituting success

Neither Preki nor Winter were able to translate short stretches (10 and 6 games respective) into anything sustainable. Nor has any coach over our history been able to turn a good start into a consistently strong finish. The jury is clearly still out on the correlation to long term "success" vs results over the short term.

Great. So let's evaluate Mariner on imaginary future results that haven't happened yet rather than waiting to see. Good luck with that.

Sorry dude, I'm out and back to lurking. I've seen where this goes. Have fun, you've won.

Oh and mods, I steadfastly refuse to apologize for "making this personal" when the inevitable complaint comes. Seeing your words intentionally misrepresented is far more deeply insulting and has consistently started the tit for tat bullshit that this would devolve into. I remove myself voluntarily.

[Pookie]

^ are you not cherry picking Mariner's 2-1-2 record and then making grand conclusions about how improved the play is? Granted he's only been here 12 games but that is kind of the point isn't it? Too early to make conclusions?

The reality of the situation is that short term stretches haven't translated into any tangible success under ANY coach. Including Mariner who has dropped 2 straight after a decent start.

[Pookie]

... or hey, let's look at how all coaches have been more consistently competitive at home:


2012 Mariner 2-1-2 1.6 PPG
2011 Winter 5-4-8 1.3 PPG
2010 Preki 6-3-6 or 1.6 PPG
2009 Carver-Cummins 8-3-4 1.8 PPG
2008 Carver 6-2-7 1.7 PPG
2007 Mo 5-7-3 1.2 PPG

Let's stop trying to feed the board shit and telling us it is steak. Mariner's results, over a much smaller swath of games is on par or worse than some of his predecessors. Marginally, it is slightly better than some.

If anything, we should bring Carver back... except of course he quit given this organizational structure.

[ensco]

Wow. Name calling now?

Why don't you take a stab at answering my questions about Mariner that I posed to him?

Why don't you go on record as to whether we will be successful with mariner and his current methods for getting results?

Do you also believe that the philosophy overhaul that TFC made was nothing but a smokeshow?

So much sanctimonious certainty. Not just you, from a lot of others too.

Don't know the answer to your first two questions. Nobody else does, either.

As to the smokeshow, I said it at the time, the Ajax 4-3-3 stuff was a PR exercise that made zero sense to me, from Day 1. I have never ever bought into this formation/possession razzamatazz, you can look it up. Football is football. Making good passes, moving without the ball, talent that can't be reduced to simple algorhythms. That's all it ever is.

[v00d00daddy]

So much sanctimonious certainty. Not just you, from a lot of others too.

Don't know the answer to your first two questions. Nobody else does, either.

As to the smokeshow, I said it at the time, the Ajax 4-3-3 stuff was a PR exercise that made zero sense to me, from Day 1. I have never ever bought into this formation/possession razzamatazz, you can look it up. Football is football. Making good passes, moving without the ball, talent that can't be reduced to simple algorhythms. That's all it ever is.

So your retort to what you consider "sanctimonious certainty" is to call me a high school debater? I may be a high schooler when it comes to debating but you're at the same level when it comes to talking to people.

As for the questions...nobody is asking for any definitive answers....just your opinion.

And I know that you didn't buy into the possession/formation business and that's fine. But those of us who did and continue to aren't right or wrong either. It's a matter of preference.

I'm not the kind of guy who cares only about the results. If I did I could just look up the box scores and go off of that to determine whether or not I'm happy with the direction of this club. Results are hugely important but when they become the only criteria to determine whether or not we are (or will continue to be) successful I think we miss the whole picture.

[Pookie]

As to the smokeshow, I said it at the time, the Ajax 4-3-3 stuff was a PR exercise that made zero sense to me, from Day 1.

Made sense to the US Soccer Federation though and enough to mobilize the US development pyramid. But hey, Anselmi knows better to let Mariner decide his own direction.. right?

[Beach_Red]

^BHTC, whoever you are, that is one high quality rant!

Mostly bang on, too. I don't love Mariner, but I am sorta kinda impressed so far, by the results (imagine that as a criterion). Don't let the endless high school debaters get you down ... "what does your knowledge of MLS have to do with the kind of football I want to see?" is symptomatic of everything that is wrong here.

We are part of the problem, I have come to realize. We are getting the team we deserve.

This is true. From the very beginning MLSE put out an inexperienced and understaffed FO and we never looked past the guy they propped up as a front. We bought the whole Klinsmann PR plan.

As I've said before this whole thing looks like the team owner in "Slapshot" telling Paul Newman how much she's enjoyed his exploits in the press, but this is business. We're as shocked now to have been played by MLSE as Newman was in Slapshot.

[Beach_Red]

Made sense to the US Soccer Federation though and enough to mobilize the US development pyramid. But hey, Anselmi knows better to let Mariner decide his own direction.. right?

Are you really comparing the resources of the entire USA to MLSE and a few miles around Toronto?

[Huyton]

Maybe...but it's a HUGE stretch to suggest that Mariner was providing Winter with all sorts of great players perfectly suited for the 4-3-3.

Might it be? Yes it might.

Might it be that you're looking for a reason to back up Mariner's performance as a the GM (for lack of a better word) because you like him as a coach?

Winter, Mariner, Cochrane and the players were all responsible for the 0-9 start. One of the first three was let go and several players were let go too.

That's utter horseshit and no amount of wins against shitty competition is going to change my mind of that.

Also...I don't give a shit about Winter. His firing was totally understandable. But if you're going to belittle his ability to judge good talent then please tell me what in Mariners past indicates that he's good at finding talent.

Where did he prove that he was the guy to identify talent suited to play a possession based game in MLS. What in his past lets you even remotely think that he "kept providing Winter with options"

Was it as an assistant in NE or as head coach at Plymouth? LOL

Actually...all I said was "Options", not "great players perfectly suited to playing a 4-3-3". I suspect that there just aren't that many available, at the price we could afford, to be able to stock a team in a year.

Part of the job of a coach is to produce a team - a symbiosis, as it were - where all the parts are doing their job.

The reason why I thought that Winter was being given options by Mariner was that last year reminded me of my wife shopping for shoes. She'll go through dozens of pairs looking for just that perfect pair, and a good portion of the time it's because she went shopping not looking for something to fulfill a specific need, but because she's not sure what she's looking for, and by trying everything, she's hoping the answer will come to her. I suspect that she occasionally buys a pair because she feels guilty about having wasted someones time.

That's the way the merry-go-round of players last year looked to me, anyway.

I was very disappointed that the Winter experiment failed as spectacularly as it did. I was really hoping for the sort of "sexy football" that one of Winters compatriots claimed he was going to provide in Newcastle.

I also hoped that "sexy football" was winning football.

Do I like Mariner as a coach? Not sure, actually...but I will give him the benefit of the doubt. Which is what I did with all his predecessors, too. I do like his ability to motivate the team. When he became Coach, he was asked what style of play he would use, and he said "Whatever works".

Ultimately, TFC needs to win because there aren't enough aficionados like yourself who are prepared to watch pretty, but losing, football while waiting for the team to get enough 443 players for a critical mass to be reached.

With all due respect,

Huyton

[starter]

... As to the smokeshow, I said it at the time, the Ajax 4-3-3 stuff was a PR exercise that made zero sense to me, from Day 1. I have never ever bought into this formation/possession razzamatazz, you can look it up. Football is football. Making good passes, moving without the ball, talent that can't be reduced to simple algorhythms. That's all it ever is.

Perhaps one could look at 433 here as a framework to try to establish some sort of identity using some of the best practices available now. Yes, we may not had players at the moment ( thanks to PM, as well ), but we were moving there, with academy teams developing talent. The 'tweak' throws all this into disarray.
Now, what you suggest our identity will look like -- get players, that can pass the ball around? This is mechanics of the game, not the goal, not the whole product.

[Pookie]

Are you really comparing the resources of the entire USA to MLSE and a few miles around Toronto?

Not sure I follow your question... I'm saying that Klinsmann plan was good enough to convince the USA that if it wanted to win, it needed to mobilize its developmental efforts towards the "Total Football" ideal. They bought it.

We had the same plan, saw 18 months worth of MLS results and said, well if Winter can't do it.. no one can.

Anselmi basically said:

Paul? Over here, bud. I know Winter isn't working out. He's still going to be the coach for a bit but here's a 3 year extension because you've done such a good job at acquiring (or not acquiring) players. Besides, you have an English accent and our research shows that our season ticket holders speak English. That's got to be good. Go down on the side lines, help him out, you know. In a few weeks though, it will be your team. Congratulations. You are the man. Do whatever you want. 4-4-2? I don't care. I'll be fucked if I know anything about this game. Just make sure that there are 11 men on the field, pitch, surface, whatever. Try to wear the white jersey's a little more often. We are having a hard time moving some of that excess merchandise. Oh, and Paul? If anyone asks, I only ever hired two coaches. Got it?

[Beach_Red]

Not sure I follow your question... I'm saying that Klinsmann plan was good enough to convince the USA that if it wanted to win, it needed to mobilize its developmental efforts towards the "Total Football" ideal. They bought it.

We had the same plan, saw 18 months worth of MLS results and said, well if Winter can't do it.. no one can.

Anselmi basically said:

Paul? Over here, bud. I know Winter isn't working out. He's still going to be the coach for a bit but here's a 3 year extension because you've done such a good job at acquiring (or not acquiring) players. Besides, you have an English accent and our research shows that our season ticket holders speak English. That's got to be good. Go down on the side lines, help him out, you know. In a few weeks though, it will be your team. Congratulations. You are the man. Do whatever you want. 4-4-2? I don't care. I'll be fucked if I know anything about this game. Just make sure that there are 11 men on the field, pitch, surface, whatever. Try to wear the white jersey's a little more often. We are having a hard time moving some of that excess merchandise. Oh, and Paul? If anyone asks, I only ever hired two coaches. Got it?

Comparing a decision by US soccer to a decision by MLSE is kind of like comparing Hollywood to the Canadian movie business. It's simply operating on a different scale.

Maybe your Anselmi scenaro is exactly what happened, but it's also possible that when the consultant's report came in some people at MLSE hedged their bets - that's why Mariner was also hired. Who knows, maybe like most consultants' reports only a small part of it got implemented or maybe it didn't cover the full extent of the situation (it may have missed the, "can we sign the players we need for this with the domestic quoatas and salary caps?" part).

USA soccer have a pretty good idea where the players are going to come from - and they can take a longer view. Sure, some people on this board are willing to pay for season tickets year after year if they feel the team is headed in the right direction (progress over results, we heard often enough), but it's unlikely there are 14,000 people willing to buy those tickets for many more seasons.

[ag futbol]

We are part of the problem, I have come to realize. We are getting the team we deserve.

I’m not so sure why you’d think that’s the case.

Supporters’ boards in general are not a good representation of fan behaviour and you can’t take that as a trigger for their actions. If you listen to the tone in town hall meetings or other such things, it’s much more moderate than the extreme bi-polar tone that’s set around here. Also, if they are getting over-sensitive with the feedback that’s on them, not us. Definitely not a sensible way to run a club, for obvious reasons.

Really, this team operates the way it does because it’s following a business model that’s brought MLSE profit. In the past, they’ve been able to focus on the operations side and just ignore what happens on the field because people still buy tickets. In some sense, you could put that down to dumb luck, established goodwill, or the previous strength of the corporate seat sales in Toronto (loosely spent $ hide a lot of sins). I’d argue it’s their neglect of on-field results that’s been the root source of our futility as opposed to fan angst.

It’s obvious that on a high level, winning does not mean anything to this club, which is the real problem. If they really had this at hart, I think it’s safe to say Anselmi and Berne would have been shown the door by now, along with a few other people. Do they explicitly not want to win? Of course not, but they put it down the list after a whole host of other things. Bad corporate structure, lack of accountability, and weak upper management team / club support staff, problems yes, but more like symptoms. The reasons why all these exist is because we haven’t prioritized results at a high enough level. If we did, these problems wouldn’t exist.

Edit: Sorry, I just want to add one last thing to underscore my last point. Seattle: if you listen to their management team talk they directly state that the malfeasance of other teams in the city provided them with incentive to create a winning franchise. Basically, they felt that because the fans were so jilted the team could really be financially successful by providing a quality product. My point: they take into account results at a high level, it seems to have cascaded down and actually happened. I think you could make similar arguments about other consistently successful MLS sides as well. They have something that makes them think about winning at a high level and that provides the fuel to make it happen. That’s what’s lacking here. And thus concludes my 2000 word essay.

[Pookie]

Comparing a decision by US soccer to a decision by MLSE is kind of like comparing Hollywood to the Canadian movie business. It's simply operating on a different scale.

Maybe your Anselmi scenaro is exactly what happened, but it's also possible that when the consultant's report came in some people at MLSE hedged their bets - that's why Mariner was also hired. Who knows, maybe like most consultants' reports only a small part of it got implemented or maybe it didn't cover the full extent of the situation (it may have missed the, "can we sign the players we need for this with the domestic quoatas and salary caps?" part).

USA soccer have a pretty good idea where the players are going to come from - and they can take a longer view. Sure, some people on this board are willing to pay for season tickets year after year if they feel the team is headed in the right direction (progress over results, we heard often enough), but it's unlikely there are 14,000 people willing to buy those tickets for many more seasons.

The question of the day is whether that decision to buy is performance related or price related?

I tend to believe it is skewed towards a price decision. The price is simply too high to sustain long term support, regardless of the outcome of the game. If I'm wrong, God (or random chance) help us when it comes to pricing the tickets for a winning team.

If I'm right though and pricing is influencing demand, then the FO's focus on short term results to justify their ticket prices is but yet another mistake in their book of mistakes.

[Beach_Red]

The question of the day is whether that decision to buy is performance related or price related?

I tend to believe it is skewed towards a price decision. The price is simply too high to sustain long term support, regardless of the outcome of the game. If I'm wrong, God (or random chance) help us when it comes to pricing the tickets for a winning team.

If I'm right though and pricing is influencing demand, then the FO's focus on short term results to justify their ticket prices is but yet another mistake in their book of mistakes.

Well, certainly for some people the decision is price related, regardless of performance. Fair enough. When it comes to performance it seems it depends a lot on the circumstances. Some people are willing to keep paying if they feel the team is headed in the right direction. Tere are other people on this board who will stop buying tickets even if the team wins because they don't like the style of play.

The Leafs sell out every game. The Argos, Jays and Raptors ticket sales depends on performance.

The consultant report and the talk about "culture" was the final straw for me to decide not renew my tickets. It wasn't just that the organization was obviously flailing and willing to say anything to sell tickets, I work in the "cultural industries" and am perhaps overly sensitive to (or very tired of) the idea of imported culture.

But there are probabably as many reasons for not buying tickets to TFC as there are people who have stopped buying them. It's really impossible to reduce it to an either/or of performance and price. I knew from the beginning that if TFC became hugely successful in Toronto I would be priced out of the stadium the same way I've been priced out of the ACC and out of a detatched house downtown. That's just life in Toronto.

[tfcocd]

Because this is a young league that just went through a 9 team expansion, nearly doubling in size, in 7 years. There really aren't many of those people out there who don't already have jobs or serious baggage (like Rongen, Preki, and Mo). Look around this league, look at what has been successful for the last decade, and you'll find that taking a chance on new unproven coaches is pretty much how you do business in MLS most of the time. It's the same as I said upthread about players.

Top to bottom:

San Jose - Yallop; experienced MLS Cup winner but was coming off a bad spell at LA and Canada, was considered risky for a long time, took a while to come good again
Salt Lake - Kreis; totally inexperienced before his appointment without any time as an assistant, lots of experience in MLS as a player though
New York - Backe; highly experienced foreign coach, has done well but is still complained about vociferously by his own fans
Houston - Kinnear; no head coach experience before inheriting Yallop's cup winning San Jose side, lots of experience in MLS/NA as a player and assistant
Kansas City - Vermes; no head coach experience before moving down from Technical Director position to take over the team, lots of experience in MLS as a player
Seattle - Schmid; highly experienced MLS Cup winner with a deep resume in NA soccer, was a total coup for Seattle to lure him away from Columbus
DC United - Olsen; no head coach experience before his appointment with minimal time as an assistant, lots of experience in MLS as a player
Chicago - Klopas; minimal head coach experience in INDOOR soccer before moving down from the Technical Director, lots of experince in MLS/NA as a player
Vancouver - Rennie; no MLS head coach experience, a very good record as an upcoming young head coach in lower tier NA soccer
Los Angeles - Arena; highly experienced MLS Cup winner with a deep resume in NA soccer, was coming off a middling run in New York prior
Montreal - Marsch; no head coach experience before his appointment with minimal time as an assistant in US nat team set up, very experienced in MLS as a player
Columbus - Warzycha; no head coach experience before his appointment, extensive experience in MLS as a player and assistant
Chivas - Fraser; no head coach experience before his appointment but reasonable experience as an assistant, extensive experience in MLS as a player
Colorado - Pareja; no head coach experience before his appointment, extensive experience in MLS as a player and assistant
New England - Heaps; totally inexperienced before his appointment without any time as an assistant, very experienced in MLS as a player
Dallas - Hyndman; no professional head coach experience, extensive head coach experience in American collegiate soccer (similar to Arena and Schmid's prior to MLS)
Philly - Hackworth (interim); no professional head coach experience, some collegiate and youth head coach experience, minimal assistant coach experience in MLS
Portland - Wilkinson (interim); no MLS head coach experience, reasonable USL head coach and assistant coach experience
Toronto - Mariner; no MLS head coach experience, minimal foreign head coach experience, extensive experience in MLS as an assistant

Notice a trend here? We fit right in with what the rest of the league is doing. 9 out of 19 with no head coach experience prior to their hire. Only 4 out of 19 with previous MLS head coach experience.

This is an interesting list and it underscores the challenges that are faced with finding a new coach. Considering you can't spend much more than $150,000 - $200,000 on a starter your options for technically gifted, tactically astute players is similarly limited. You need to develop/find these players over time cheaply and make the best of it until then or deem that position worthy of DP money.

[tfcocd]

Not sure I follow your question... I'm saying that Klinsmann plan was good enough to convince the USA that if it wanted to win, it needed to mobilize its developmental efforts towards the "Total Football" ideal. They bought it.

We had the same plan, saw 18 months worth of MLS results and said, well if Winter can't do it.. no one can.

When you start a season with 9 straight losses tweaking the approach is not likely to change the outcome. If the USA national team crashed out of the World Cup qualifiers don't you think they would start considering a different direction? The comparison between a US team whose starting 11 would command 30 or $40,000,000 on the market vs TFC roster that might be 1/10th of that quality is really hard to evaluate. The US team can probably adapt and play any style that you like whereas, clearly this is not the case for TFC who needs a simple style to get by. The hope for me is that Mariner has the 'know how' to make simple tactics effective. We will find out, and for me that is the intrigue of TFC for this season.

[Huyton]

Just curious...do NFL coaches tend to come from the collegiate ranks? Should MLS teams be looking there for coaches experienced with North American players?

[ensco]

I’m not so sure why you’d think that’s the case.

Supporters’ boards in general are not a good representation of fan behaviour and you can’t take that as a trigger for their actions. If you listen to the tone in town hall meetings or other such things, it’s much more moderate than the extreme bi-polar tone that’s set around here. Also, if they are getting over-sensitive with the feedback that’s on them, not us. Definitely not a sensible way to run a club, for obvious reasons.

Really, this team operates the way it does because it’s following a business model that’s brought MLSE profit. In the past, they’ve been able to focus on the operations side and just ignore what happens on the field because people still buy tickets. In some sense, you could put that down to dumb luck, established goodwill, or the previous strength of the corporate seat sales in Toronto (loosely spent $ hide a lot of sins). I’d argue it’s their neglect of on-field results that’s been the root source of our futility as opposed to fan angst.

It’s obvious that on a high level, winning does not mean anything to this club, which is the real problem. If they really had this at hart, I think it’s safe to say Anselmi and Berne would have been shown the door by now, along with a few other people. Do they explicitly not want to win? Of course not, but they put it down the list after a whole host of other things. Bad corporate structure, lack of accountability, and weak upper management team / club support staff, problems yes, but more like symptoms. The reasons why all these exist is because we haven’t prioritized results at a high enough level. If we did, these problems wouldn’t exist.

Edit: Sorry, I just want to add one last thing to underscore my last point. Seattle: if you listen to their management team talk they directly state that the malfeasance of other teams in the city provided them with incentive to create a winning franchise. Basically, they felt that because the fans were so jilted the team could really be financially successful by providing a quality product. My point: they take into account results at a high level, it seems to have cascaded down and actually happened. I think you could make similar arguments about other consistently successful MLS sides as well. They have something that makes them think about winning at a high level and that provides the fuel to make it happen. That’s what’s lacking here. And thus concludes my 2000 word essay.

A lot there that I agree with. But I think this particular board is more influential on this particular team than you suggest. In support of this I would point out that:

- the push for grass happened here
- the unbelievable player turnover rate is directly a result of the epic savaging all players inevitably get here. So it's in part related to "making us happy".
- the JDG signing was hugely popular here, once it was floated it became an obsession on this board (I plead guilty), and nothing screwed the franchise up more than that single move
- a substantial majority of the fanbase has bought into every version of the vision (young Canadians, the Ajax stuff, UK imports - versions 1 and 2) without any more than a small minority ever pointing out that we keep trying to invent MLS, instead of doing what has been shown to work. If O'Dea is making 3x what Bernandez is, we need to remember that, as always, his signing passed without much comment here.

[narduch]

But even if you believe that the club makes decisions based on fan forum chatter, that still isn't the fans fault. That's all on management.

It wouldn't surprise me if that is how they operate though. Especially when you consider how much Paul Beirne spent on message boards the first few seasons, the town halls, the constant survey's etc.

[Pookie]

When you start a season with 9 straight losses tweaking the approach is not likely to change the outcome. If the USA national team crashed out of the World Cup qualifiers don't you think they would start considering a different direction? The comparison between a US team whose starting 11 would command 30 or $40,000,000 on the market vs TFC roster that might be 1/10th of that quality is really hard to evaluate. The US team can probably adapt and play any style that you like whereas, clearly this is not the case for TFC who needs a simple style to get by. The hope for me is that Mariner has the 'know how' to make simple tactics effective. We will find out, and for me that is the intrigue of TFC for this season.

Oh, I think this is a fair point and if the US does not get results, I'm sure we'll see changes.

My point though is bigger than the style embraced by the USNMT. Since MLS is a development program for it, it too has embraced developing players in this mould. That includes Academies and First Teams. NCAA programs are on board as well. And Soccer clubs throughout the pyramid are mobilizing to support the plan. (they work quicker than our CSA does after all). While each may choose a different way to implement it, the goal is to have players thinking in a way that supports a possession based attacking system. They will be tactically sound, look for short passes and build from the back. They will learn to pressure high and to be in a position to exploit (in numbers) the results of that high pressure. They will also learn to cover for each other should a teammate press forward. And many, many coaches will be developed in this model.

That's where the "market" is going. And we were going there but are now are not. In essence, US Soccer + MLS + NCAA are going one way and putting their trust, belief and resources behind Klinsmann's "plan." We had it, decided Tom Anselmi knows better and let Paul Mariner decide the direction of the club. Surprisingly, knowing he was hired to help implement Klinsmann's plan and cashed his cheques while supporting it (?), he has gone back to what he knows. He has implemented "Forward First" football and has started to fill the roster with players that fit this model, change the emphasis of the Academy development and surround himself with coaches that can support the program.

I'm not sure about you but if I were betting as to which model might increase the club's chances of long term success and I had 2 options, one written by Jurgen Klinsmann and one written by Tom Anselmi (co-authored by Paul Mariner).... I'm pretty sure we all know which is going to be the safer bet.

[Yohan]

Oh, I think this is a fair point and if the US does not get results, I'm sure we'll see changes.

My point though is bigger than the style embraced by the USNMT. Since MLS is a development program for it, it too has embraced developing players in this mould. That includes Academies and First Teams. NCAA programs are on board as well. And Soccer clubs throughout the pyramid are mobilizing to support the plan. (they work quicker than our CSA does after all). While each may choose a different way to implement it, the goal is to have players thinking in a way that supports a possession based attacking system. They will be tactically sound, look for short passes and build from the back. They will learn to pressure high and to be in a position to exploit (in numbers) the results of that high pressure. They will also learn to cover for each other should a teammate press forward. And many, many coaches will be developed in this model.

That's where the "market" is going. And we were going there but are now are not. In essence, US Soccer + MLS + NCAA are going one way and putting their trust, belief and resources behind Klinsmann's "plan." We had it, decided Tom Anselmi knows better and let Paul Mariner decide the direction of the club. Surprisingly, knowing he was hired to help implement Klinsmann's plan and cashed his cheques while supporting it (?), he has gone back to what he knows. He has implemented "Forward First" football and has started to fill the roster with players that fit this model, change the emphasis of the Academy development and surround himself with coaches that can support the program.

I'm not sure about you but if I were betting as to which model might increase the club's chances of long term success and I had 2 options, one written by Jurgen Klinsmann and one written by Tom Anselmi (co-authored by Paul Mariner).... I'm pretty sure we all know which is going to be the safer bet.

Klinsmann plan will start to see results likely from 10 yrs from now.

[Beach_Red]

^ Pookie, the first part of this thread name is more important than the second. TFC has never done much more to acquire players than sign whoever is willing to come here for the terms they offer. When most of the US players coming into MLS play a certain style, that's the style TFC will play. The second part of the thread title is an easily interchangeable, temporary part of the team.

MLSE have never been ahead of the curve in anything they've done. They are solidly middle of the pack. And that's likely to continue even with new ownership.