Canadian national anthem and TFC scarfs: Your opinion?

[MarkEightThree]

I don't see the problem in bringing more attention and pride to our anthem and Canada itself. When it comes to soccer in this country 90% of the time when people are showing their pride for a nation it isn't Canada, it's some other country they have links to during the World Cup and Euros. Why not strengthen the connection between soccer and Canada?

When the anthem is done at Maple Leaf games you can see the pride on people's faces. Despite screwing everything else up with the club, the Leafs usually do a great job of honoring our country and military during the anthem whether it's by bringing in a singer with some connection or having military personnel present.

[flatpicker]

I don't have any issue with the anthem being played before games. I would also have no issue if they stopped doing it. It's nice to sing, but has no real connection to club sports. So either way, I'm fine. But as some said earlier, they need to stop telling fans to "raise your scarves up high!". First of all, we know to do this already! Being told before each match just sounds like we are at summer camp with a councillor leading us in group activities. I honestly cringe each time it's said. It's time to put an end to that bit.

[james]

I always found it really odd that the anthems are played before every game- but I'm a "new Canadian" so I suppose it was a new concept to me. I think it should only be played when Canada are playing. To play it before every single game dissolves it's relevance in my opinion.

Actually what really bugs me re the pre-match is that the stadium announcer sounds like a constipated little girl with a speech impediment. For god sake just say the names like a normal human being...

he makes me think im at a monster truck rally or a WWE wrestling match....its rediculous. I was saying for years why can't they just get a normal guy to announce it, you can still hype people up with out going over the top like this douch bag.

[james]

I don't see the problem in bringing more attention and pride to our anthem and Canada itself. When it comes to soccer in this country 90% of the time when people are showing their pride for a nation it isn't Canada, it's some other country they have links to during the World Cup and Euros. Why not strengthen the connection between soccer and Canada?

When the anthem is done at Maple Leaf games you can see the pride on people's faces. Despite screwing everything else up with the club, the Leafs usually do a great job of honoring our country and military during the anthem whether it's by bringing in a singer with some connection or having military personnel present.

i don't get why in NHL they barely ever let the fans just sing the national anthem tho. Maybe the odd playoff game do they let fans sing, and when they do the fans love it, they think its like the best atmosphere in the world. They should really do it more often!

[Wolfe]

I think some are taking my comments out of context. I was saying that I don't agree with holding our scarves up during the Canadian national anthem because that in my opinion is disrespectful. The ones that leave their hats on and talk throughout the entire anthem are the ones that are disrespectful fucks.

Go ahead and hold your scarf up if that is what you want to do, just don't stand there and talk to your buddies about how drunk you were last night or some hot girl 10 rows down who is never going to talk to you let-alone sleep with you, or sign improper lyrics during O'Canada

[Fort York Redcoat]

It wasn't MLSE that decided to ask people to raise scarves. They saw it and have perpetuated the habit.

Talking through anthems is disrespectful. I understand that NA sports have cheapened anthems a bit but that's no excuse IMO.

Holding a scarf up does not negate the respect shown by singing the anthem. I think it's more important to try and inspire people to sing it rather than shout down a newer tradition that inspires it.

[Cashcleaner]

Times have change. We rarely do this "tradition" anymore outside of sports. TFC isn't team Canada nor they represent Canada; They're representing and playing for Toronto.

And that's fine if you're going to apply the same point-of-view across the board to include other traditional practices. But like I said, the argument often boils down to doing things the "proper traditional way" - or as I like to call it, "What my grandparents in Europe did".

Besides, some people don't like having national anthem (and other nationalistic/political issues) shove down our throats all the time at local sporting events.

Shoved down your throats? Last time I checked, nobody holds a gun to your head when the anthems are playing. You could always excuse yourself during the performance. Maybe use the washroom, go to the concessions, or just take a look around the concourse.

Or am I talking crazy here?

[Ultra & Proud]

TFC isn't team Canada nor they represent Canada; They're representing and playing for Toronto.

I think us being the Canadian Champions for 4 years straight means with represent Canada in our federation, CONCACAF, of which MLS plays under.

[Alonso]

The thing is, I don't even understand how it gets the atmosphere going at a club game! It's one thing before a national team match but to have it played for a match in which there could potentially be no Canadians in the game (or perhaps more for the visiting team, etc.)??? What does Torsten Frings think when he hears Oh Canada? It won't pump him up.

However, I'm sure we are in the minority for wanting no anthems. There are a lot of people who will say they want it for no other reason (because they can't think of a good one) than "It's tradition" to have it played in North America. I mean just consider how there is a collective effort made by the supporter groups to start singing Oh Canada for CCL matches. Even though the team we are playing is Mexican or American, it's still silly to have it for a club match.

I'd much rather have a team song...whether it's an already existing song like how many English teams adapt them (ie You will never walk alone) or an original one. I'm no Liverpool fan, but I have a funny feeling that their players respond better to hearing that than ours will ever to Oh Canada.

The CCL is a club match for sure, no argument there. But we are representing Canada in the tournament as the Canadian Champions so it's really the only time where it makes some sense to sing the national anthem.

My opinion is that I look forward to the anthem in the sense of what a tradition like that brings.

I also used to look forward to the naming of the starting lineups when the whole stadium would yell it out together. A distant memory now at this point. No one shows up to games before the team warm ups anymore. GA seating in the whole south end would fix this, and provide more enthusiastic fans for the supporters end. CCL is proving that General Attendance should be very seriously considered, but I digress.

[TorontoPat]

I thought it was on very rare Occasions BMO acknowledges and plays the anthem, such as when they had the military day. Most of the time the crowd (112) just starts up singing so everyone joins in. Since it is all unofficial so to speak I see nothing wrong with displaying the TFC scarf. No different than a couple of guys in a bar that start up and sing the anthem and raise their glass, I don't get upset about it

[flamehawk]

"Besides, some people don't like having national anthem (and other nationalistic/political issues) shove down our throats all the time at local sporting events."

Shoved down your throats? Last time I checked, nobody holds a gun to your head when the anthems are playing. You could always excuse yourself during the performance. Maybe use the washroom, go to the concessions, or just take a look around the concourse.

Or am I talking crazy here?

Well, that's what I usually do with friends. We just refuse to stand for the anthem and stand right after the anthem is played. I disagree with nationalism and patriotism. That said, sometimes, I will stand, just so that I can avoid arguing with others and explaining my position.

However, as others have stated, I just think that Toronto FC, despite the use of the maple leaf, is supposed to represent the local community, not some random lines drawn on the map by a bunch of white men in order to take ownership of others' land. Perhaps the anthem should be sung for the national team, but I really don't think it's appropriate for Toronto FC.

[Commie Red]

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind".
-- Albert Einstein

[TFC07]

And that's fine if you're going to apply the same point-of-view across the board to include other traditional practices. But like I said, the argument often boils down to doing things the "proper traditional way" - or as I like to call it, "What my grandparents in Europe did".



Shoved down your throats? Last time I checked, nobody holds a gun to your head when the anthems are playing. You could always excuse yourself during the performance. Maybe use the washroom, go to the concessions, or just take a look around the concourse.

Or am I talking crazy here?

Well I sometimes do that especially when section I am sitting is empty. If it's packed, then I don't bother going because it's too much of a hassle to get back to my seat when the game starts.

I agree what flamehawk said. There's a time and place to show your pride in your country, but a club game isn't one of those places. Show it where it's appropriate (Like a Canada national soccer game).

[TFC John]

It is an Honour to sing the national anthem of Canada. Many people have spent their lives defending your right to sing it and many others have given their lives in defense of your right to sing it. If you don't understand how incredibly fortunate you are to live here you should go visit some of the shithole countries around the world that are full of people who would trade places with you in a heartbeat. You should sing our anthem every morning when you wake up and you should sing it every night before you go to sleep. Singing the anthem should be your way of saying thank-you to every man and woman who have made Canada what it is and it should be your promise to join their ranks and make your own contribution to this great country. It may not be perfect and there are certainly plenty of ways you could help to make it better, but try making a list of places that you would rather live and then make a list of places you wouldn't want to live. I garuntee that the first list will be much shorter than the second. Hold your scarf up or don't hold it up: neither one is right or wrong. But don't forget for one second that you are one of the luckiest people on the planet simply because you can claim our national anthem as your own. And if you do forget that fact it is only because this country is such a great place that it allows you the luxury to forget these things. Now stand up and sing!

[Fort York Redcoat]

Well, that's what I usually do with friends. We just refuse to stand for the anthem and stand right after the anthem is played. I disagree with nationalism and patriotism. That said, sometimes, I will stand, just so that I can avoid arguing with others and explaining my position.

However, as others have stated, I just think that Toronto FC, despite the use of the maple leaf, is supposed to represent the local community, not some random lines drawn on the map by a bunch of white men in order to take ownership of others' land. Perhaps the anthem should be sung for the national team, but I really don't think it's appropriate for Toronto FC.

Interesting. I'm pretty sure it was the same kind of men who drew lines on a map to determine what was "Toronto" but if you want to believe you're supporting community in one instance but not an evil government in another go right ahead. That's a freedom you have here.

Politics and sport are strange bedfellows. When I support Canada in football does it mean I support every decision my leaders have ever made? Does it mean I love Rob Ford because I support Toronto FC?

I hope to celebrate the best in us as a community, a city, and a Country when I sing for both club and Country.

[bigredone]

We follow Canadians careers through the football world proudly. We (most of us) love it when Canadian boys are running around bmo in a red jersey.

Should the anthem not be played before Canadian Championship games? Are you worried about a spontaneous burst of triumph of the will.

Nationalism does not equate to patriotism. This conversation reminds me of the comments about the TFC Academy eagle.

[eustacchio]

It's my favourite song.

[flamehawk]

Interesting. I'm pretty sure it was the same kind of men who drew lines on a map to determine what was "Toronto" but if you want to believe you're supporting community in one instance but not an evil government in another go right ahead. That's a freedom you have here.

Politics and sport are strange bedfellows. When I support Canada in football does it mean I support every decision my leaders have ever made? Does it mean I love Rob Ford because I support Toronto FC?

I hope to celebrate the best in us as a community, a city, and a Country when I sing for both club and Country.

Well, I see Toronto more as a localized community, made up of many people who ended up congregating in one location - which also obviously was the result of colonialism (both in this country and abroad). By localized I mean to say that inclusion in the community, at least in concept (though not necessarily in practice), is based on living in the community and interacting with others within it. This is a much more fluid concept that nationalist imagined communities, with exclusionary criteria for inclusion - whether it is immigration or assumptions rooted in superiority (I remember a debate we had on this board 4,5 years ago regarding 'supporting the troops' and patriotism). So, for me, it's not really an equating of government with community that irks me, its the very concept of the nationstate. The singing of the anthem is a political act, and yet it is seen as so self-evident and unproblematic (I was made to sing "O Canada" every week growing up in Hong Kong). Anyways, apologies in advance if I derail the conversation.

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

This thread (like most of its predecessors on the same general subject matter) is destined to go down in flames. Not that I don't enjoy the conversation (although it's been had here many, many times before), but now that we're into the respect-individual-liberty vs. Canada-is-free-so-you-should-be-forced-to-sing-about-it exchange, hopefully it's only a few minutes til a mod puts us out of our misery.

[Roca]

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind".
-- Albert Einstein

This

[Cashcleaner]

Well, I see Toronto more as a localized community, made up of many people who ended up congregating in one location - which also obviously was the result of colonialism (both in this country and abroad). By localized I mean to say that inclusion in the community, at least in concept (though not necessarily in practice), is based on living in the community and interacting with others within it. This is a much more fluid concept that nationalist imagined communities, with exclusionary criteria for inclusion - whether it is immigration or assumptions rooted in superiority (I remember a debate we had on this board 4,5 years ago regarding 'supporting the troops' and patriotism). So, for me, it's not really an equating of government with community that irks me, its the very concept of the nationstate. The singing of the anthem is a political act, and yet it is seen as so self-evident and unproblematic (I was made to sing "O Canada" every week growing up in Hong Kong). Anyways, apologies in advance if I derail the conversation.

Wait. Why did you have to sing O Canada when you were growing up in Hong Kong?

[Cashcleaner]

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind".
-- Albert Einstein

He was, of course, referring to the upsurge of violent and chaotic nationalism that was taking place in Europe at time and the bloody regimes which formed. Regimes such as the Nzis which would place a bounty on his head for being a Jewish intellectual. Einstein was evidently okay with American And British Nationalism when he defected to those countries and relayed information on Germany's nuclear weapon program and other state scientific secrets.



He ended becoming an American citizen in 1940. And I'd wager he probably stood up for the anthem whenever he heard it.

[bigredone]

That picture is amazing. The power it has.

So how can we make this picture more for TFC. PM holding the sword and on the sword is written Hassli? Perhaps the wings are JDG? The world peace sign could be an RPB standard. Does anyone have the skills to do that?

[Brooker]

I wanted to get other fans opinion on this subject:


I find it disrespectful to the Canadian national anthem when people lift their TFC scarfs.

- The national anthem should be listened (and chanted if you wish) with your arms down by your side.
- The national anthem has nothing to do with TFC, and more importantly TFC has nothing to do with our anthem. It is a sports team run by a business conglomerate.
-We remove our hats during the anthem. Why lift a sports team scarf during the sacred process?

Respect must be given back to the national anthem at TFC games!

Should we not be raising our scarfs proudly after the completion of the anthem?

I agree, I have never and will never raise my scarf. I was taught at a young age to remove my hat stand straight with my arms at my side or on my heart and STFU. I can't believe how many disrespectful fucks there are in this country and ML$E doesn't help

Surely you're not equating me holding my scarf up and singing my national anthem in full voice with me being a disrespectful fuck. It's a practice we have had at games since the beginning and MLSE sort of latched onto it. If you want to stand at attention, feel free, I'll express my pride in and love for Canada in a different way.

Omg Jack stop being a disrespectful fuck! Have you no shame? How do you sleep at night? Handful of sleeping pills no doubt.

[bigredone]

The terrorists are winning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[flamehawk]

Wait. Why did you have to sing O Canada when you were growing up in Hong Kong?

I went to a Canadian school .. kinda self-imposed colonialism I suppose - like we'd get in trouble for speaking Cantonese, but Western schooling would provide more future career/economic opportunities etc.

[flamehawk]

He was, of course, referring to the upsurge of violent and chaotic nationalism that was taking place in Europe at time and the bloody regimes which formed. Regimes such as the Nzis which would place a bounty on his head for being a Jewish intellectual. Einstein was evidently okay with American And British Nationalism when he defected to those countries and relayed information on Germany's nuclear weapon program and other state scientific secrets.



He ended becoming an American citizen in 1940. And I'd wager he probably stood up for the anthem whenever he heard it.

Any citations regarding that? Choosing to defect or immigrate out of safety or economic concerns can't exactly be equated with a support of that form of nationalism? In the same way many Spanish anarchists escaped to countries like Cuba and Mexico after the Spanish Civil War, I doubt choosing to go to a country can be equated with a support for borders and nation-states. It seems more like a reflection of the current state of the world/necessity.

In fact, that Einstein quote appeared in his writings calling for an end to nation-states, and for a global socialist government (not something I necessarily agree with but his critique is what is helpful). So, it doesn't seem to really support your view on it.

http://www.federalunion.org.uk/albert-einstein/

[Derko]

I hold my scarf up and sing the Canadian National Athem proudly, I also remove my cap and respectfully stand silently during all other National Anthems. I don't find it offensive holding my scarf up, during the anthem, but to each his own.

[T-boy]

I think its all down to where you were brought up. All Canadians have gone through high school standing and singing their national anthems every day in class. Patriotism is intrinsic to most Canadian's. For myself, growing up in England, patriotism is almost shunned. We NEVER sung our national anthem at school, let alone at a club level sporting event! So, for people not growing up in Canada or the US, singing a national enthem before a TFC probably seems alien and pointless. But to Canadian's/American's, singing the national anthem is all part of the course.

I personally respectfully take my hat off for the national anthems at TFC games. I rarely take my scarf to summer games though.

[jabbronies]

Sinclair and Tancredi are the WNT. Back line did a great job as well, still shaky though

if our mids could strengthen up, we'd be top 5 for sure.