TFC @ Chicago Fire Saturday, August 4th @ 8:30pm on GOLTV
---------------Kocic----------------
Henry---Eckersley---Emory---Morgan
------------Frings------------------
Lambe---------------------Dunfield
-------------Silva-----------------
--------Hassli---- Johnson---------
Subs: Hall,Williams,Amarikwa,Wiedeman,Avila,F.Hall
TFC 2-1 Fire
If we lose this game, any last glimmer of hope for the playoffs are (un)officially finished.
Play-offs? Time to bring out our dear friend who comes by every season.
Last edited by Super; 08-03-2012 at 09:28 AM.
Injury report:
TORONTO FC -- OUT: GK Stefan Frei (L lower leg); FW Danny Koevermans (L knee ACL tear); DF Matt Stinson (R quadriceps strain); QUESTIONABLE: FW Eric Hassli (R ankle sprain)
CHICAGO FIRE -- OUT: DF Cory Gibbs (R knee meniscus repair); DF Steven Kinney (R groin strain)
Anyone know whats going on with Dicoy? Still recovering i presume.
so our last game we lost 2-0 to Houston, well NYRB have lost as well, so it might not be so bad, and with a midweek confidence boost, I expect a win by a goal, lets hope this happens
Yup. He's no there yet. Also rusty as hell as the Liverpool game showed. It would be unfair to judge him on that though considering it's been a year since he's played any meaningful minutes at a high level. Reserves minutes don't really count.
I just wish Mariner/Cochrane would set realistic expectations.
In addition to Mellberg = O'Dea and Weideman being the most prolific striker of the modern era, he's offered up a dumb-ass quote in today's Sun on the eve of playing Chicago, in Chicago
“Eight weeks ago we were (1-9-0) and now we (beat) a Salvadoran team that was very, very successful (domestically),” Mariner said. “We beat (Aguila) 5-1 so I like to think we’re progressing. It’s always a massive confidence-builder for any team and any individual,”
Who are you trying to convince Mariner? This fan base has seen very clearly that CCL success does not translate into league success, despite "massive confidence". It's also been just two days since you played. Don't set the team up for failure. Set them up for success. Things like; "this is our 3rd game in 7 days but I know the lads will give it their best effort as they did on Wednesday" says relatively the same thing without setting expectations amongst the fan-base.
If you wanted to put the pressure of needing a result squarely and publicly on the shoulders of your young team, or your latest signings.... congratulations you just did it.
Last edited by Pookie; 08-04-2012 at 07:02 AM.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with Mariner's quote, unless you have an issue with a coach trying to boost the morale of his players. He didn't guarantee a victory today, he just said that the performance against CD Aguila was a confidence builder for the group. Any coach would have said something along those lines after a 5-1 victory in any competition.Originally Posted by Pookie
It's just unbelievable that people can go to such lengths to criticize Mariner under any circumstances. Perhaps you should send him a memo next time so his comments to the press are worded exactly the way you would like to avoid offending your delicate sensibilities.
Even though I support Mariner, I have been critical of his lineup decisions at times. I'm under no illusions that he is the second coming of Sir Alex Ferguson. However, he has done an admirable job considering the cards he was dealt.
It would be nice if people could offer an opinion without being so blatantly biased. It's as if you are on a mission to scrutinize him to the extent that you are willing to grasp at straws if necessary to promote your agenda. It's difficult to take your commentary on Mariner seriously anymore.
^ I like that Mariner is a "player's coach"
I dis-like that he sets unrealistic expectations and as a result puts pressure squarely on the players. Based on what you read, what are you expecting to happen tonight? If the team falls flat like they did v Houston, what's the quote tomorrow?
It's like when NHL players "guarantee" wins in the playoffs, or Burke says "we will make the playoffs." We all want a confident coach. But sometimes things with think on the inside should stay on the inside.
If you see no issue with the average fan thinking that O'Dea will do what Mellberg could have done, that TFC is "Level" in terms of development with Liverpool FC, that Weideman is the best finisher of the modern era and that tonight, the club will play with a massive confidence boost and we should expect a result (all statements by Mariner)... all the power to you.
For me though, that is a manager that wants his team to be confident but is setting them up publicly for a real tough challenge. When the inevitable happens and the fan realizes that they really aren't level with Liverpool and that Weideman isn't really as good as Messi, invariably the players hear it from the fans.
Doesn't seem fair... nor smart... from where I sit.
Either you misunderstood his comments, or you have deliberately taken his remarks out of context in order to scrutinize him. For example, Mariner actually went out of his way to downplay the result against Liverpool, citing the fact they were still in pre-season form and used most of their reserve squad. He then commended his youngsters for their showing in the second half.
And for the record, Mariner never stated that O'Dea was the equivalent of Mellberg, Mariner never suggested that TFC is on par with Liverpool in the context that you presented, Mariner never said Wiedeman was the second coming of Messi, and Mariner has not guaranteed a result in Chicago tonight.
You make him sound like a bumbling fool. Give the man some credit. His background in the game demands a certain level of respect, courtesy, and dignity. He has forgotten more about the game than you will ever know.
Mariner is certainly not immune from criticism, but if you're going to be critical, at least have the decency to use something of substance and a measure of accuracy as a point of reference.
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 08-04-2012 at 08:46 AM.
So saying a win is a 'massive confidence booster' is the equivalent to guaranteeing a win?
I read somewhere on here you were a writer correct?
Mariner: "Chicago very tough"...
http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/0...-august-3-2012
Mariner's interview seems like a far cry from the characterization that he is overconfident and guaranteeing a result tonight.
I'm sorry but you're clearly doing yourself what you're accusing Pookie of doing. You're putting words in his mouth to make him sound stupid. He never mentioned Messi. All he did was give interpretations of what Mariner said.
You choose to conclude that when Mariner calls Wiedeman "the best finisher in the modern era" it means nothing and try to make Pookie sound foolish by bringing up Messi when, in reality, Mariner is the one who sounded idiotic when he said it and Messi was never mentioned.
I think the Liverpool quote you guys are talking about is:
"It lets all the players, either the senior players or the academy players, to realize that they're not that far away from competing with some very, very good players," Mariner said. "It's a wonderful educational experience for everybody."
I have no problem with what Mariner said and I agree...what pookie said on this is an inaccurate interpretation in my opinion. That being said...Mariner's quote here rings kind of hollow when you take into consideration his quote regarding Weidemans. LOL. I'd imagine that Mariners take on what makes a "very very good player" is a pretty wide spectrum. If Weidemans can be complimented that way, and Mariner praises players like Dunfield the way he does, it makes you wonder who he thinks is a bad player. LOL
On Mellberg vs. O'Dea. All Mariner said was that we as fans would be happy with the signing. Cochrane is the one who said that "they" like O'Dea as much as they liked Mellberg.
That's open to interpretation but it's not far fetched to suggest that "they" are talking shit and expecting TFC supporters to be as satisfied with the O'Dea signing as we would have been with a Mellberg signing. Which some people have eaten up and done. LOL
So please stop talking about objectivity and bias. We all have it.
As for suggesting that Mariner is a bumbling fool....I think you'll find lots of supporters that think he does it all by himself.
Combine the stuff he says in the press with the way he behaves on the touchlines with the tactics he employs (that many find brutal) and it's not a stretch for somebody to call him a fool.
Just cause you love the guy, doesn't mean others have to abstain from being critical of him.
I don't love Mariner, but I respect him. I have been critical of his decisions in the past that affect the results on the pitch when it's justified. I don't expect others to abstain from being critical as well. Don't mischaracterize my position to defend Pookie. And BTW, he did mention Messi, I don't make things up to support my opinion. Read his post carefully.
Once again, it's difficult to take anyone's commentary seriously when it's based on quotes that have clearly been taken out of context.
If people want to criticize his lineup decisions, his tactical approach, or anything else that has a direct influence on the competitiveness of TFC on the pitch, that makes for intriguing discussion and debates.
All this other crap is nothing but pure conjecture and nonsense, and a blatant attempt to smear the reputation of a man with a considerable pedigree in the world of football.
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 08-04-2012 at 09:41 AM.
I find it hilarious to see how Pookie has turned into an even worse version of his old enemy Roogsy, should change his username to Poogskie.
Well he did mention Messi but who cares. He did however, interpret the words 'massive confidence boost' as meaning guaranteed win so you tell me if that's a stupid statement or not on Pookie's part.
Looking forward to watch the game. I think it will be a tough slog, but hoping for points. This Mariner talk is getting tiring. Maybe open a love/hate Mariner thread, and stick to that one.
I use direct quotes where possible, such as this one on Weideman:
"He’s one of the best finishers I’ve seen in the modern era and I’m looking for him to really take the bull by the horns and take this opportunity.” - Paul Mariner, July 13th
It's a little funny you would suggest taking things out of context to fit an agenda when Mariner's direct quote that started this was "“Eight weeks ago we were (1-9-0) and now we (beat) a Salvadoran team that was very, very successful (domestically),” Mariner said. “We beat (Aguila) 5-1 so I like to think we’re progressing. It’s always a massive confidence-builder for any team and any individual”
In May, they were actually 3-2-2 with wins in the ACC against Vancouver and Montreal but those don't count?
As for the comments on Mellberg, if you notice I referenced Mariner/Cochrane in terms of setting expectations in my OP. The Mellberg = O'Dea reference is clearly coming from Cochrane.
In any event, I'm pretty consistent on the belief that I don't think Mariner's tactics and our direction, combined with our resource allocation and roster management will lead this team anywhere. We need a new President and that person can make the decision on Mariner.
Do I have an agenda? Sure. I don't believe in the direction we are going. I don't believe in it for reasons such as those highlighted above.
When I talk about mis-use of our roster spots, lack of scouting, abandoning the 4-3-3 direction in favour of short term results, I'm not bashing Mariner. Mariner is doing exactly what any one of us would do if given the chance to run the team. He's bringing in his guys, his coaches, setting his agenda, and playing the style he knows how to play. I can't fault a guy for wanting to win or lose on his own terms.
Where I do fault Mariner is that if he didn't believe in 4-3-3 and didn't think he could support that direction, with identifying players, etc, then he shouldn't have taken the job in the first place. Even then though, that's Anselmi's fault for hiring him.
As for the post that started this, I took the quote on "massive confidence" as yet another example of over-hype coming from Mariner/Cochrane and found it particularly pressure inducing on the eve of a game. I think this hurts the players and considering how CCL confidence hasn't make a lick of difference before, I find it something that didn't have to be said. However, this season has become about throwing bones in order to get season ticket renewals so if suggesting that they have the best finisher of the modern era or have massive confidence and we can massage the records a little to demonstrate it... well, it helps sell tickets based on hope. And that after all is the plan, IMO.
That's the point. Simple. Agree or disagree.
(For the record, I am hoping for 3 points tonight just like you)
Yeah... I disagree, on most counts.
As for the Wiedeman kid, for all you know the question he was asked was "how does he compare to other kids who came though generation adidas." And even if it was stupid, it gave the kid enough confidence for a game winner in his first game (and don't say it was a deflection because the replay showed he clearly poached it.)
As for the quote about our record, again, he's not holding a public discourse on statistical management. He's trying to use a win to motivate his troops. Given the general improvement in our record, that would seem to be important.
"In any event, I'm pretty consistent on the belief that I don't think Mariner's tactics and our direction, combined with our resource allocation and roster management will lead this team anywhere. We need a new President and that person can make the decision on Mariner.
Do I have an agenda? Sure. I don't believe in the direction we are going."
Ah, great. Unsubstantiated belief. That's what we need more of on this board. Even if people bought every one of these arguments, he still wouldn't have been in the job long enough for any of us to reach such a complete conclusion.
I mean, really dude, we just a year suffering through Roogsy becoming more and more entrenched in positions that were marginally defensible at best. Another case probably doesn't do anyone any good.
I just hope dan gargan doesnt score on us again lol
First, where have we misused roster spots? Second, how can you comment on lack of scouting? Are you totally familiar with the full ins and outs of our scouting team? I know I'm not. Lastly, and I think I have written this ten times on here already, 4-3-3 is a formation and it has nothing to do with the system that's being played (ie. KC plays a 4-3-3 and they are 100% pure kick and chase). I wish people would comprehend that already.
And for that Mellberg = O'Dea reference, you are reading it wrong as well I believe. Cochrane doesn't say they are equal players, he said they liked them equally. Big difference. Almost as big as calling out a manager on a guaranteed win blurb when all he said was that our players had a confidence boost and are progressing.
Sadly, we could nearly win out the rest of the season, qualify for the playoffs, and win the MLS Cup and I guarantee some people would still complain about the 4-3-3, our system, no future, hoofball, and other inane drivelings.
I am not going to write again on the fact that only 9 Canadians work in the entire USA, while we give up US Superdraft picksfans rely on stocking the roster with largely un-tradable assets. I have made it a point to become as well versed as I can with respect to our local/US and International scouting efforts. I belonged to one of the first TFC-A CAP clubs and saw first hand what we had locally. Internationally, I'll offer a tidbit. Check out wyscout.com and explain why we wouldn't want to be a part of something like that.
As for formation, 4-3-3 is simply a "catch phrase" to me to describe attacking possession minded football. My beef has always been that Klinsmann gave us the plan that the US Soccer Federation is mobilizing towards. US Academies are developing their players in this philosophy. MLS First Teams are adopting this style. We aren't. That's a problem for both future competition, for Mariner and his fit with this team over the long term, and for the kids we are supposedly trying to develop for professional careers. They are learning a way of thinking, Forward First, that is not in demand for the market they are going to enter. That is a shame.
Ah, so if given a choice between which of the two he wanted... "either or" would be an answer?And for that Mellberg = O'Dea reference, you are reading it wrong as well I believe. Cochrane doesn't say they are equal players, he said they liked them equally.
Given where the league is going, I really don't think you'll have to worry about that.Sadly, we could nearly win out the rest of the season, qualify for the playoffs, and win the MLS Cup and I guarantee some people would still complain about the 4-3-3, our system, no future, hoofball, and other inane drivelings.
If you can see a map and know the direction you are going, is it unsubstantiated opinion to highlight that there are known bumps along the road?
Generally speaking, those who are sounding alarm bells point to specific things. My concern over abandoning 4-3-3 is related to the documented fact that Klinsmann is essentially moving the US Soccer Federation to his vision. It's related to the documented fact that many MLS Academies and First Teams are following the Total Football model. DC United in particular has made a point of saying they are following the Ajax approach. When parents connected with TFC Academy suggest that they are changing direction based on their first hand experience and we see players that couldn't play 4-3-3 (ie. Hassli) picked up because they are better suited to our Forward First models, I think it is pretty clear that there is more to it than just "unsubstantiated opinion"
If looking at a map on the road to where we are going causes discomfort, that's an individual choice. We all create our realities. If someone wants to believe that Mariner has the players playing with confidence, something that was supposedly missing when they went 8-3-5 through August of last year, so be it. None of us can predict the future. That said, IMO, there are clear signs that the future is going to be difficult under the current plan. Acknowledge it, debate it, challenge it... but don't dismiss it.
Look, I'll back off this on these boards as I lived through the Roogsy-era and I do not want to take away from the group.
Last edited by Pookie; 08-04-2012 at 01:19 PM.
I will go out on a limb and suggest that by the time "Total Football" takes a firm hold in MLS and the current crop of youth prospects in Academies across the league are ready to play at the senior level, Mariner will no longer be on the sidelines. It will take several years for Klinsmann's vision to come to fruition for the USMNT and various clubs in MLS.
Paul Mariner was hired to make this team competitive in the immediate future, not five or more years into the future. The top teams in MLS at the moment (ie. San Jose, Houston) are clubs that play a conventional, direct, counter attacking style similar to Mariner's tactical approach.
At this juncture, TFC cannot afford to implement a long term plan that will pay dividends in several years while the first team is mired in futility in the interim. There will be no supporters left by the time the first team is able to execute the system effectively.
Let's worry about the here and now, shall we?
Furthermore, there is no reason to suspect that a change in formations in of itself at the Academy level will stunt the technical development of any of our prospects. As long as the practice drills remain consistent, which is currently the case, our young players will be able to adapt to various formations and still play possession based football in the future. Denime is very familiar with the Academy, and even he acknowledged that despite the change to the 4-4-2 formation, our youngsters are still being encouraged to play possession based football, not 80's "hoof ball".
I was at the Liverpool friendly, and our kids in the second half were lined up in 4-4-1-1, yet they controlled possession better than our first team.
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 08-04-2012 at 04:08 PM.
I didn't go and study our stats but haven't we scored more goals (on average) in the Mariner era than we did in the Winter attacking/possession one? I know in 2012 for sure we scored more with Mariner than in Winter's first 10 matches.
And you should think up a more appropriate catch phrase for attacking/possession minded football because teams don't need to play 4-3-3 to do it.
We've had more than double the offensive production, and our goal differential is respectable.
I don't think that's going out on a limb at all. I think it will take a footballing generation (as in getting the plumbers and older players out of the league) to get it flowing properly and completely. Minimum 5 years I'd bet across the board. Probably more. By then our Academy should be ready as I recall Rongen and De Klerk saying it would take 5 years to really see the effects of the academy and that was a while ago. As far as that goes I would say we are ahead of the game. And Mariner will be long gone by then. Most likely, if Dichio keeps the CSL Academy team playing as well as they have been, then he will probably be up here managing the first team and implementing the same system used down there as a bulk of our squad will probably be graduates of that Academy.
Then people will say the Dichio hiring was for more season seat sales and so they can jack up ticket prices.
But back to the game at hand.
Will be a tough one tonight but I see us scratching this one out but I bet the last 25 minutes or so will be really ugly. Probably a lot like the New England match. I say 2-1 us with Lambe and Hassli getting the goals for us and Rolfe getting one the other way.
I can't see Hassli starting. But I can see him scoring in the second half.
I want to be proved wrong. Here's my best guess going in
Score: Chicago 2 Toronto 1
Chicago Toronto
14 Attempts on Goal 9 46% Duels Won % 54% 80% Passing Accuracy % 68% 62% Possession 38%
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