Player acquisitions and Mariner

[T-boy]

I'll continue the thread in here so the mods can clear up the other thread:

^ I really hate to wade into the middle of this, but are you saying that Mariner is not at fault for having acquired Andy Iro to do a job he was incapable of doing?

It's all down to what Winter was asking for. Winter clearly wanted a "left footed central defender", and he said so on several occasions. Mariner, I expect, was asked to find the BEST left footed CB that he could, that was available. Iro was clearly 1. available, and 2. a left footed centre back. So, did Mariner fail to find what he was asked to find - I would say no. He found exactly what he was asked to find. It's then up to Winter to get the player to play effectively. Winter failed to do this, not only with Iro, but with many players (including Dunfield).

If Winter had asked Mariner to find "a left footed central defender who already knows the 4-3-3 system and can play a short technical pass from the defense and play with his feet" - maybe Mariner just couldn't find that type of player! As we know, centre backs that can play technical football are VERY few and far between! And even fewer, are CB's who know the 4-3-3 system that Winter was playing and can play it. The issue with Winter, and player acquisitions, is that there are VERY few players within the MLS who can play what he was asking. His system isn't a simple 4-3-3, its a VERY complicated one. So, Mariner was very much stuck within the limitations of the MLS with the players he could acquire. This definitely isn't Mariner fault! Its not only Winter's problem, its the problem with the WHOLE of the MLS.

For Winter's system to work, TFC would have to go outside of the MLS and BUY the technically gifted players. As we know, this just isn't possible with the restrictions of the MLS. This isn't Mariner's Fault. The issue is that Mariner was being asked to do a job that is almost impossible to undertake - find players that can fit into Winter's system from a league that is full of players that are incapable of playing it. I'm fairly sure Mariner was doing the best he could with the limitations of 1. Winter and what he was looking for and 2. That TFC play in the MLS with all its rules and restrictions. This is why I don't blame Mariner at all.

If Iro was the best "available" and "left footed" centre back he could find at the time, then that's fine. In the MLS you simply can't 1. buy any player you want or 2. go beyond the rules of the league and the cap space. Winter's system needed to be outside of the MLS, where you can go and buy players, and bring in whoever you want with unlimited budget. But this IS the MLS, and it comes with a hell of a lot of restrictions.

????????

It was exactly Mariner's job to acquire players who he identified as ones who would fit into Winter's system......imo Andy Iro is a perfect example of how he failed badly at doing his job.........you can blame Anselmi for a lot of things that have gone wrong with this team but player acquisition is not one of them.......

Anselmi set up the structure of the club so that Mariner was in charge of finding players, and yet Winter was the one in charge of playing them. That is a massive lack of cohesion within the structure of the club. I find it hardly ever works in a football club. The coach should be the one who is finding the players he needs, not another guy.

[Oldtimer]

Here's my post originally from the player movement thread:

We need to look at the player acquisitions when Winter was here and ask "would some of those players have played BETTER under Mariner than they did with Winter?".

Take for example Andy Iro.

Wrong. We need to look at Mariner's player acquisitions compared with a playoff team's acquisitions. Who is LA's Andy Iro? Does NY have an equivalent? *** crickets ***

Stop comparing Mariner to Winter. Compare his acquisitions to better team's acquisitions.

For example, Mariner picked up Léandre Griffit to play on the wing from the Krew. Sporting KC picked up Bobby Convey to play on the wing from San Jose. Is Griffit equivalent to Bobby Convey? Not even close.

It's even worse when you look at defenders. Would Eddy Viator have a chance with any other MLS squad? Jeremy Hall? Logan Emory? How about the disaster who was Caicedo (who was supposed to solve our defensive woes)?

Look at the players he gave away, almost for nothing:

Nick LaBrocca
Dwayne De Rosario
Nana Attackora
Alan Gordon
Maicon Santos
JDG

It has nothing to do with whether his players would do better under him than Winter. Judge him by a winning team, not a losing team. Would his players stand a chance in a winning MLS squad? Would they even get in? IF they got in, would be be for bench strength? How was the value that he got for his trades? Where is the DeRo equivalent that we got? Maicon Santos equivalent? You see, he massively failed in that department. When Winter was let go, Mariner should have been shown the door as well.

[Oldtimer]

For Winter's system to work, TFC would have to go outside of the MLS and BUY the technically gifted players. As we know, this just isn't possible with the restrictions of the MLS. This isn't Mariner's Fault.

It's time to get over Winter. What is Mariner's fault is how his acquisitions line up with other MLS clubs. It's time to drop the love affair with the Andy Iro's of this world. They just aren't good enough.

[__wowza]

That was the problem under Mo, he would pick random players from various places.... some of them looked good on paper, some were actually good, but they didn't combine well. That hasn't changed in the 2 years under Mariner

This seems the key point and it really seems to look like an organization with no scouting - they rely on player agents and sign whoever is willing to accept their contract offers. And yes, it certainly doesn't look like it's changed very much over the years.

ported over from the other movement thread

[T-boy]

Wrong. We need to look at Mariner's player acquisitions compared with a playoff team's acquisitions. Who is LA's Andy Iro? Does NY have an equivalent? *** crickets ***

Lots of other teams have their "Andy Iro". Some of which TFC have given away as they were poor here - Dan Gargan is a good example!.

Stop comparing Mariner to Winter. Compare his acquisitions to better team's acquisitions.

But you do HAVE to compare Mariner with Winter. You have to compare them as Mariner has got a lot more out of the SAME set of players than Winter did. It's not like there have been massive personnel change - Mariner simply has got players to play better than Winter could.

For example, Mariner picked up Léandre Griffit to play on the wing from the Krew. Sporting KC picked up Bobby Convey to play on the wing from San Jose. Is Griffit equivalent to Bobby Convey? Not even close.
It's even worse when you look at defenders. Would Eddy Viator have a chance with any other MLS squad? Jeremy Hall? Logan Emory? How about the disaster who was Caicedo (who was supposed to solve our defensive woes)?

Personally I don't believe for a second that Mariner was "randomly acquiring players" without knowledge or direction from Winter. Winter was clearly asking Mariner to look for certain players with certain strenths or positions. It's interesting you mention Emory and Hall - two players who I think are good pickups actually!

Look at the players he gave away, almost for nothing:

Nick LaBrocca
Dwayne De Rosario
Nana Attackora
Alan Gordon
Maicon Santos
JDG

Again, you are oversimplifying things by far. Do you really think that Mariner was getting rid of players "willy nilly"? You honestly think Winter had absolutely no knowledge of the players leaving? Isn't it far more likely that Winter was telling Mariner to get rid of players that he didn't want? Mariner was following instructions from the head coach.

In any sport, and in any team in the world, the buck stops at the head coach. Winter was the decision maker, NOT Mariner. Winter had to go.

Judging the players that we have at TFC by the way they are playing for Mariner himself is what we need to be going. And, TFC have been playing much better lately. The same set of players that Winter couldn't get to play, are playing well for Mariner. THAT is more telling than any "record" that Mariner had of acquiring players while Winter was in charge. Mariner's record of 4-4-4 is a hell of a lot better than Winters 1-9 with exactly the same players! If you want to judge Mariner's player acquisitions, judge them how they are playing with him as manager, not how they WERE playing with the last one.

[Canary10]

Lots of other teams have their "Andy Iro". Some of which TFC have given away as they were poor here - Dan Gargan is a good example!.



But you do HAVE to compare Mariner with Winter. You have to compare them as Mariner has got a lot more out of the SAME set of players than Winter did. It's not like there have been massive personnel change - Mariner simply has got players to play better than Winter could.



Personally I don't believe for a second that Mariner was "randomly acquiring players" without knowledge or direction from Winter. Winter was clearly asking Mariner to look for certain players with certain strenths or positions. It's interesting you mention Emory and Hall - two players who I think are good pickups actually!



Again, you are oversimplifying things by far. Do you really think that Mariner was getting rid of players "willy nilly"? You honestly think Winter had absolutely no knowledge of the players leaving? Isn't it far more likely that Winter was telling Mariner to get rid of players that he didn't want? Mariner was following instructions from the head coach.

In any sport, and in any team in the world, the buck stops at the head coach. Winter was the decision maker, NOT Mariner. Winter had to go.

Judging the players that we have at TFC by the way they are playing for Mariner himself is what we need to be going. And, TFC have been playing much better lately. The same set of players that Winter couldn't get to play, are playing well for Mariner. THAT is more telling than any "record" that Mariner had of acquiring players while Winter was in charge. Mariner's record of 4-4-4 is a hell of a lot better than Winters 1-9 with exactly the same players! If you want to judge Mariner's player acquisitions, judge them how they are playing with him as manager, not how they WERE playing with the last one.

T-Boy, where (if anywhere) from your point of view are the weaknesses in team right now?

[T-boy]

It's time to get over Winter. What is Mariner's fault is how his acquisitions line up with other MLS clubs. It's time to drop the love affair with the Andy Iro's of this world. They just aren't good enough.

You can't have this arguement without mentioning Winter. Mariner's acquisitions have all been perfectly fine IMO. The head coach while he was making the acquisitions was the issue, not the acquisitions themselves. You could have a team of Messi's in every position, but if your head coach is a dull, emotionless, clueless, un-motivational, un-moveable, under qualified coach, you are still going to be a horrible football team!

[Oldtimer]

You can easily tell which players were Winter players: Koevs and Soolsma.
Frings came from Klinnsmann.

The players that lack technical skill are the ones Mariner picked up.

Winter himself said that he didn't find players. he asked for players, then picked from what Mariner got him. If he got him 10 Andy Iro's, Winter picked one of them.

The real question is, why were there no Bobby Conveys in the mix? I'm sure he was just as available to Mariner as he was to KC.

[Canary10]

You can't have this arguement without mentioning Winter. Mariner's acquisitions have all been perfectly fine IMO. The head coach while he was making the acquisitions was the issue, not the acquisitions themselves. You could have a team of Messi's in every position, but if your head coach is a dull, emotionless, clueless, un-motivational, un-moveable, under qualified coach, you are still going to be a horrible football team!

Same if your head coach is George Costanza.

[Oldtimer]

You can't have this arguement without mentioning Winter. Mariner's acquisitions have all been perfectly fine IMO. The head coach while he was making the acquisitions was the issue, not the acquisitions themselves. You could have a team of Messi's in every position, but if your head coach is a dull, emotionless, clueless, un-motivational, un-moveable, under qualified coach, you are still going to be a horrible football team!

You keep bringing in Winter because that's the only way Mariner looks good. How does he compare to Bruce Arena? Frank Yallop? Sigi Schmidt?

There is a reason you aren't mentioning any of those guys.

Or to put it another way, would you rather have any of those three or Mariner? I know what my answer would be.

[Red CB Toronto]

All I know is Andy Iro, Leandre Griffitt and any other player that has suited up for the Reds during their first six years has been kind enough to sign my photos for my all-time TFC collection, which is over 120 players.

[T-boy]

T-Boy, where (if anywhere) from your point of view are the weaknesses in team right now?

Nice question.

Weaknesses:

Ryan Johnson isn't a very good player IMO. His off the ball movement is poor, and he gets far too frustrated with himself and destracted from the game. He spends way too much time watching replays on the big screen and not enough time playing the game and concentrating. He isn't consistent enough and his finishing, as we all know, is poor. I'd much prefer Koev's/Hassli and another (I would give Silva a chance as second striker). Johnson is no more than a bench player IMO.

Until thid last week I'd also add in CB - but we need to see how O'Dea plays, and I can't judge that right now. I'd prefer to see Ecks play at FB, where he is more effective.

I'd also personally like to see the two wide midfielders play WIDER than Mariner has them playing. Lambe needs to sit more on the touchline than he does. He gets crowded out too often playing inside. But the midfielders we have, I would say are pretty good. Frings and Dunfield play well together, and a mix of Lambe, Silva, or Avila is a good midfield.

I'd replace Johnson in a heartbeat, though!

[Canary10]

Nice question.

Weaknesses:

Ryan Johnson isn't a very good player IMO. His off the ball movement is poor, and he gets far too frustrated with himself and destracted from the game. He spends way too much time watching replays on the big screen and not enough time playing the game and concentrating. He isn't consistent enough and his finishing, as we all know, is poor. I'd much prefer Koev's/Hassli and another (I would give Silva a chance as second striker). Johnson is no more than a bench player IMO.

Until thid last week I'd also add in CB - but we need to see how O'Dea plays, and I can't judge that right now. I'd prefer to see Ecks play at FB, where he is more effective.

I'd also personally like to see the two wide midfielders play WIDER than Mariner has them playing. Lambe needs to sit more on the touchline than he does. He gets crowded out too often playing inside. But the midfielders we have, I would say are pretty good. Frings and Dunfield play well together, and a mix of Lambe, Silva, or Avila is a good midfield.

I'd replace Johnson in a heartbeat, though!

We did get Amarikwa. His running fast in a straight line is the perfect complement to Johnson's running madly in every direction.

[Phil]

All I know is Andy Iro, Leandre Griffitt and any other player that has suited up for the Reds during their first six years has been kind enough to sign my photos for my all-time TFC collection, which is over 120 players.

That number....120....makes me sad and points to one of the real issues.

Sigh.

[T-boy]

You can easily tell which players were Winter players: Koevs and Soolsma.
Frings came from Klinnsmann.

The players that lack technical skill are the ones Mariner picked up.

Winter himself said that he didn't find players. he asked for players, then picked from what Mariner got him. If he got him 10 Andy Iro's, Winter picked one of them.

The real question is, why were there no Bobby Conveys in the mix? I'm sure he was just as available to Mariner as he was to KC.

How about the players that ARE good that Mariner has brought here:

Eckersley
Lambe
Dunfield
Avila
Johnson (I don't like him, but a lot of fans do)
Hall
Silva

All players that Mariner is directly acountable for signing and have all been successful signings. Anybody disagree?

Who brought in Stefanovic? Anybody know?

[T-boy]

We did get Amarikwa. His running fast in a straight line is the perfect complement to Johnson's running madly in every direction.

I can't judge Amerikwa by the ONE game we've all seen him play!

[Ultra & Proud]

T-Boy, where (if anywhere) from your point of view are the weaknesses in team right now?

Same problem we've had for a number of years now and unlike a CB, is worthy of using a DP slot; a play-making AM. Not the pseudo-forward types like we have been using for the past few years (Silva, Avila, DeRo). A position lacking since Guevara left.

[Richard]

I can't judge Amerikwa by the ONE game we've all seen him play!

Yes and No. Sometimes you can tell if a player has any substance in a game or two(especialy at there age), like Wiedeman he looks lost.

[TFC Tifoso]

Anselmi set up the structure of the club so that Mariner was in charge of finding players, and yet Winter was the one in charge of playing them. That is a massive lack of cohesion within the structure of the club. I find it hardly ever works in a football club. The coach should be the one who is finding the players he needs, not another guy.

That has been the set up of TFC pretty much since Year 2 when Mo was finding players and the coach did the best he could with them......and the onus was always on Mo, ie. the guy responsible to find players for the coach, so why is the onus switched now?.....

also, a few teams in MLS play a 4-3-3 atack oriented style with players from NA, so you can't say Mariner's job before was impossible......he just did it poorly......

[Oldtimer]

How about the players that ARE good that Mariner has brought here:

Eckersley Good (unfortunately Mariner often plays him out of position)
Lambe Meh
Dunfield Yuck
Avila Rumoured to be going
Johnson (I don't like him, but a lot of fans do) I don't like him, either
Hall Hardly a prize signing
Silva Good

All players that Mariner is directly acountable for signing and have all been successful signings. Anybody disagree?

Who brought in Stefanovic? Anybody know?

So there are two players that I would say other MLS squads would actually covet, plus Avila who probably is being traded. The rest I don't think would make it elsewhere. Not enough to counter losing:

Nick LaBrocca
Dwayne De Rosario
Nana Attackora
Alan Gordon
Maicon Santos
JDG

[T-boy]

That has been the set up of TFC pretty much since Year 2 when Mo was finding players and the coach did the best he could with them......and the onus was always on Mo, ie. the guy responsible to find players for the coach, so why is the onus switched now?.....

also, a few teams in MLS play a 4-3-3 atack oriented style with players from NA, so you can't say Mariner's job before was impossible......he just did it poorly......

It isn't as simple as "playing 4-3-3" though. If you have heard Rongen and De Klerk talk about their system, you will realise that it isn't as simple as finding "average MLS players". Their system is hell of a lot more complex than the other MLS teams systems.

[T-boy]

So there are two players that I would say other MLS squads would actually covet, plus Avila who probably is being traded. The rest I don't think would make it elsewhere. Not enough to counter losing:

Nick LaBrocca - was VERY poor while at TFC. Do you disagree? Or did you see something while he was a TFC player to tell you otherwise?
Dwayne De Rosario - signed his own cheque goodbye on the field.
Nana Attackora - Had off the field issues and had to leave.
Alan Gordon - was always injured - if we had kept him last season, he wouldn't have played another game all season had to leave.
Maicon Santos - Was playing very poorly last season. Again, unless you saw something differently?
JDG - Was taking up an extremely valuable DP spot and a massive amount of cap money.

There's my judgements on why all those players had to leave and were best gone. I'd love to have a FIT Gordon here - but it wasn't going to happen. I'd love to have a mentally healthy Attakora here, but again, wasn't happening. I don't see losing any of these as "Mariner's fault". I think the majority of MLS coaches would have moved all these players due to their various "issues". And nobody could have foreseen LaBrocca's improvement in form given what we saw at TFC (minus one wind assisted goal, haha!).

[jloome]

There's my judgements on why all those players had to leave and were best gone. I'd love to have a FIT Gordon here - but it wasn't going to happen. I'd love to have a mentally healthy Attakora here, but again, wasn't happening. I don't see losing any of these as "Mariner's fault". I think the majority of MLS coaches would have moved all these players due to their various "issues". And nobody could have foreseen LaBrocca's improvement in form given what we saw at TFC (minus one wind assisted goal, haha!).

I have to once again say, as I have to people on the other side of this, that you have lost your objectivity.

You are ignoring Oldtimer's main point, which is legitimate. Outside of the fact that he's a megafan with a good football mind who has years on the board and deserves more respect than a debate, rather than a dialetic.

Whether Mariner is better than Winter (he is at motivating, at the very least) is TOTALLY FUCKING IRRELEVANT. We are not debating the relative merits of the two managers. We are discussing whether the team can win with Mariner. That requires comparing him to OTHER TEAMS.

Jesus. The discussions on this board are so emotionally immature and unfocussed on anything but one-upmanship sometimes it makes me sick, frankly. That's what belief does; it compounds into ideology, and an absence of objectivity.

And I realize the threat is about Mariner's acquisitions, so that's not anargument; his acquisitions are only as relevant as whether we win more. Will we do that by playing an Aron Winter team at any point this season. No? THEN IT'S TOTALLY FUCKING IRRELEVANT.

I know you like the guy. I suspect he's a decent field coach. I suspect he torpedoed the shit out of Winter, which is why those signings were so bad, and he'll quietly, gradually, get rid of most of the dead weight, because he'll tell MLSE that he was only following orders when he signed them in the first place.

I suspect that, as a result of his inability to be competent when working with Winter, he will be reviled by half the fan base even if we win.

But that's all TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to whether he will lead us forward.

EDIT: And with respect to your view of those players, what are you talking about? Labrocca had seven assists for us the season before he was traded; Santos had six goals for us and was leading the team in scoring. DeRosario ended up with 15 goals and carried the team, even if he was an ass. Attakora DID NOT have off the field issues. He had a coach saying he had off the field issues. Not the same thing.

[T-boy]

I'm not the one judging Mariner already by saying "he will fail"! If you read back through the other thread, you will read people saying that Mariner already needs to be fired! But for what reason? His performance as head caoch SO FAR has been reasonable! 4-4-4 and an easy win in the CCL. For a mid-season takeover coach, that's a good start IMO.

I wasn't the one who started to judge Mariner's head coach ability by his former upper management/front office job. I am trying to defend him, but other people started this conversation not me! So don't blame this on me!

A lot of people on this forum seem to be judging Mariner's "failure" before he's actually had a chance to fail! How can any TFC fan predict accurately how Mariner's team will perform in the future? You simply can't! So, the people who are already judging the future need to stop. I'm not the one who has lost objectivity! The people who are throwing Mariner under the bus before he's even failed are the ones who have totally lost it, not me!

IF (and that's an IF?) Mariner fails, I will equally judge the guy! But to this point, he so far has NOT failed!

[Greatest Ripoff]

How about the players that ARE good that Mariner has brought here:

Eckersley - doesn't provide value for his cap hit, not worth it
Lambe - average MLS player who is young
Dunfield - works hard, has very little skill
Avila - good player that can't get a game under Mariner
Johnson (I don't like him, but a lot of fans do) - bleow average MLS striker
Hall - mid 20 something who has made a career of going from team to team, not very good
Silva - a good player, best of the list

None of these platers could get a game for Seattle, KC, RSL, SJ, LA ect.

[T-boy]

I have no idea how TFC have won 4 games and drawn 4 with all those crappy players! Must be complete luck I guess? There luck will start to run out quickly and we will lose 9 in a row again. *rolleyes*

[Ajax TFC]

Look at the players he gave away, almost for nothing:

Nick LaBrocca
Dwayne De Rosario
Nana Attackora
Alan Gordon
Maicon Santos
JDG

I can't fully agree with this list. LaBrocca brought Alan Gordon (who brought Johnson, which I agree was a bad trade), so I don't think you can fairly put both on this list.
Maicon Santos brought us Avila who I would take any day over five Maicon Sontos'

[ag futbol]

If you look at the list of players we are discussing here and look at how their replacements were... It really gets you back to why TFC struggles in the first place, their evaluation of talent is poor.


Nanna Attakora -> Logan Emory / Ty Harden

Maicon Santos -> Ryan Johnson

Nick Labrocca -> Terry Dunfield / Eric Avila


Were any of these really upgrades? I can't really say overall it improved the team, although in some cases it didn't exactly make us worse either. Really when it comes down to it, we're trusting the same people to find players for this team as we were before. Aron Winter was one guy on a staff of many people... problems remain.

[Whoop]

I have no idea how TFC have won 4 games and drawn 4 with all those crappy players! Must be complete luck I guess? There luck will start to run out quickly and we will lose 9 in a row again. *rolleyes*

The wins had nothing to do with Mariner.

a) The team was better on paper than it showed. It was just a matter of time the team would win some matches. It's called regression. Or other cases, "new coach bump". There was no way, even with Winter in charge, that the team was going to go 1-33.

b) But the most likely reason, an in-form Danny Koevermans.

The team will regress back to a sub .500 team which is what it was during Winter's tenure mainly due to Mariner's poor player acquisitions.

[Greatest Ripoff]

I have no idea how TFC have won 4 games and drawn 4 with all those crappy players! Must be complete luck I guess? There luck will start to run out quickly and we will lose 9 in a row again. *rolleyes*

The goal isn't to be a middle of the road team that goes 4-4-4, it is to be champions. The players you listed aren't good enough to play on championship teams. And please give it up about the start of the season. It's done and so Winter. No one gives a fuck about what happened anymore. This is about the direction the team in going in. And right now they are not acquiring players that will bring them championships despite have the 3rd largest payroll in MLS. Why spend $390,000 on an average to good RB and play him a CB where he is not a as good? Decisions like this is what holds Toronto back.