Excitement Level

[michaeltfc91]

Obviously being 0-8-0, the fan excitement is going to be at a minimal. But I can't believe how far it has gone down. We get about 16,000 fans a game that actually come out. The last 2 home games, the away support has been louder than our support. BMO Field is the easiest place to play for an away side in MLS -- it is no where near the fortress we sorta had -- 5 straight home losses is an embarrassment. We were the best fans in MLS for the first 3 seasons -- but since then we are average and this season, the lowest.

What is even sadder is Toronto FC have still never scored a game winning goal at BMO Field in any competition past the 85th minute (Latest - De Ro 84th minute against Phili on a PK). When have we been treated to an exciting home game or goal? Dichio's first goal and final goal of 2007 were pretty exciting, but didn't matter in terms of playoffs. Since then, maybe the Yourassowsky goal against Vancouver to take a lead in the Canadian Championship final? The two home goals against LA in the Champions League Quarterfinal? We've never scored big goals at BMO Field, in fact opponents have scored the last minute goals or tying goals. San Jose in 2009, Cornell Glen embarrassed us and put us out of playoff position with a last minute tying goal. Hassli's goal last night looked unbelievable to the fans and we have never had that special moment in six years at home.

Just rambling, but the only thing we can be proud of is a semi final appearance in the Champions League which I am truly thankful for because it was a hell of a run. This is all we can say we have accomplished on the field. The future doesn't look any brighter -- maybe another Canadian Championship this year might help, but in terms of MLS still no playoffs or .500 seasons. I have been to 90% of the games and love this team more than anybody, but this team is killing me now and we need to win a game please. I can't wait until we improve and the excitement level is back at BMO Field with 22,000 loud fans making it a fortress. When that comes back, it will be awesome

Side Note -- Interesting Fact: Since 2007, Toronto FC is tied for the most trophies by an MLS team with 3 (Along with Seattle, LA, Columbus)
(This includes CONCACAF Champions league, MLS Cup, Supporters Shield, US Open Cup, Canadian Championship)
So maybe, we are a top team in MLS

[RedDevils]

The blame for the drop in supporter quality is on Paul Beirne. He got everything wrong on day one and we're reaping the fruits of those errors now. Instead of going with what worked in Chicago and DC, he decided to reinvent the wheel and ignore U-Sector's wish to be in 115.

The only reason ECS in Seattle is the best is because they demanded a real supporter's section behind the net that gives them room for growth. The difference is their FO listened to their supporters and gave them what they needed to succeed. In our case, we had to deal with arrogance. Supporters understand supporter culture, not the suits.

Break down support in North America into three tiers.

Tier 1: Cream of the crop. Seattle, Portland, and when they're on point Chicago. (and IMO when they move into Saputo, UM02. They made us look really bad on both occasions we visited this year, great group vocally. Need to step up their visuals though)
Tier 2: Up and coming, constantly improving. KC, RSL, San Jose, Philly, LA, NYRB, Columbus, Colorado.
Tier 3: Fragmented, unorganized, stagnating. Toronto, Dallas, Vancouver, New England, Chivas, DC (no offense to District Ultras, fantastic group, but this is about DC as a whole, in a SSS with all four groups in one section and DU leading, easily Tier 1.).

Tier 1 and 2 put their groups behind the net where they belong, they almost all follow the guidelines laid out by the Fire and Section 8. Things like listening to supporters on supporter issues (gasp), independence of groups, general admission, and some get rid of seats all together for safe standing areas.

The supporter groups are the beating heart of any stadium. Our heart beat is irregular at best, flatline on most days.

[TFCRegina]

The blame for the drop in supporter quality is on Paul Beirne. He got everything wrong on day one and we're reaping the fruits of those errors now. Instead of going with what worked in Chicago and DC, he decided to reinvent the wheel and ignore U-Sector's wish to be in 115.

The only reason ECS in Seattle is the best is because they demanded a real supporter's section behind the net that gives them room for growth. The difference is their FO listened to their supporters and gave them what they needed to succeed. In our case, we had to deal with arrogance. Supporters understand supporter culture, not the suits.

Break down support in North America into three tiers.

Tier 1: Cream of the crop. Seattle, Portland, and when they're on point Chicago. (and IMO when they move into Saputo, UM02. They made us look really bad on both occasions we visited this year, great group vocally. Need to step up their visuals though)
Tier 2: Up and coming, constantly improving. KC, RSL, San Jose, Philly, LA, NYRB, Columbus, Colorado.
Tier 3: Fragmented, unorganized, stagnating. Toronto, Dallas, Vancouver, New England, Chivas, DC (no offense to District Ultras, fantastic group, but this is about DC as a whole, in a SSS with all four groups in one section and DU leading, easily Tier 1.).

Tier 1 and 2 put their groups behind the net where they belong, they almost all follow the guidelines laid out by the Fire and Section 8. Things like listening to supporters on supporter issues (gasp), independence of groups, general admission, and some get rid of seats all together for safe standing areas.

The supporter groups are the beating heart of any stadium. Our heart beat is irregular at best, flatline on most days.

Have you missed the last 6 years?

The supporters sections locations are what are causing our failure. That is exactly it.

I'm glad that we have someone to cut through the BS of team management and player talk.

It's all about where the U-Sector is sitting.

I have a feeling you'll be getting a call from Tommy A soon to help him consult on how to fix TFC.

[RedDevils]

Have you missed the last 6 years?

The supporters sections locations are what are causing our failure. That is exactly it.

I'm glad that we have someone to cut through the BS of team management and player talk.

It's all about where the U-Sector is sitting.

I have a feeling you'll be getting a call from Tommy A soon to help him consult on how to fix TFC.

I am not faulting the supporters at all. Of course our current slump is due to on the pitch. I'm talking about the future of support. That's what this thread is about. Don't put words in my mouth. This is about stagnating support in Toronto. And you have to be completely blind to say that Toronto groups are improving.

The last 6 years were good despite Paul Beirne's blunders. And really, the last 6 years weren't that good. Portland and Seattle in 2 years did what we could never do in 10 years. We went from top to mediocre, because the current set up is not sustainable.

The solutions to this club aren't locked in some pandora's box. Just take a look around the league. Everyone else is getting it right when it comes to supporters section location and ticketing. We didn't. We had Chicago Fire's successful model to emulate. We had U-Sector members with real experience in the stands calling for supporters to be behind the net. Paul Beirne ignored this so that the groups can show up on the cameras when it pans towards the south stand. Now we have 100-150 voices that are willing to sing for 90 minutes and don't mind their view being blocked by a flag spread out amongst two sections separated by a bunch of people who don't want to participate. If we built it right and put those 100-150 in one section in the middle, there would have been room for growth outwards. Now, not so much.

[Cashcleaner]

I'm sorry Red, but many of the issues you're bringing up are not the fault of the FO at all.

For example, the club came to us and asked us how many seats and what section they should put aside for our group. We said fifty in 112 should do it, and as it turns out we underestimated things.

And actually, when some new seats in 112 opened up a few years back, RPBers were given first crack at them.

The club has actually done quite a bit to accomodate us, and I think a lot of the hositlity toward Paul B is unwarranted.

[RedDevils]

I'm sorry Red, but many of the issues you're bringing up are not the fault of the FO at all.

For example, the club came to us and asked us how many seats and what section they should put aside for our group. We said fifty in 112 should do it, and as it turns out we underestimated things.

And actually, when some new seats in 112 opened up a few years back, RPBers were given first crack at them.

The club has actually done quite a bit to accomodate us, and I think a lot of the hositlity toward Paul B is unwarranted.

I have issue with how this was handled in the early days, and how RPB execs went on U-Sector's board and hassled them to move into 113, but I don't doubt for a second that Paul Beirne pressured them to do that.

What Beirne should have done was listen to U-Sector and make 115 the supporters section. Follow Chicago and make it general admission. Cap the sale at a certain point. Over the years you would have seen people flow in and out based on preference. Today we would at the very least have a solid section behind the net united and loud. Best case scenario, the section would spilled over into 114 and 116.

Again, not blaming the SGs, the bulk of the blame lies on Beirne. He literally went on the U-Sector board and posted that if they don't cooperate he would have to force them into 113. What kind of arrogance and close mindedness is that?

And then I go back to my original point. Why did Portland and Seattle get it right? Why are Philly, KC, RSL growing their support? Because they listened to their supporters and emulated what the original successful supporters did. Why did we fail? We let a suit dictate how supporter groups were structured. And now we're in the position we're in. Zero room for growth, horribly shaped sections for organization, tifo, and acoustics, and slowly but surely we're getting worse.

Section 8 had a slump when we came into the league. Why were they able to spring back up in the next few seasons? Because they had a solid foundation they could build upon if things went bad.

This needs to be made abundantly clear before the new owners purchase this club. Beirne is not a friend of the supporters. Quite the opposite.

[Cashcleaner]

I have issue with how this was handled in the early days, and how RPB execs went on U-Sector's board and hassled them to move into 113, but I don't doubt for a second that Paul Beirne pressured them to do that.

Huh? This is the first I've ever heard of this. I know of a few old board posters who joined up to their respective clubs based on where they were sitting, but as a former exec myself who organized our first ever meetings and met with the club to sort our our seating needs, I have never seen or heard of this.

What Beirne should have done was listen to U-Sector and make 115 the supporters section. Follow Chicago and make it general admission. Cap the sale at a certain point. Over the years you would have seen people flow in and out based on preference. Today we would at the very least have a solid section behind the net united and loud. Best case scenario, the section would spilled over into 114 and 116.

Again, not blaming the SGs, the bulk of the blame lies on Beirne. He literally went on the U-Sector board and posted that if they don't cooperate he would have to force them into 113. What kind of arrogance and close mindedness is that?

I'm not familiar with U-Sector's dealings with Beirne so I can't really comment except to say that all the U-Sector guys I talked to were happy with sitting in 113 at the time. But regardless of that, what you're saying would have left us off with even less seats for supporters. Right now RPBers makes up about half of 112 and half of 111 with a few pockets elsewhere. I would imagine U-Sector is the same with 113 and 114.

And then I go back to my original point. Why did Portland and Seattle get it right? Why are Philly, KC, RSL growing their support? Because they listened to their supporters and emulated what the original successful supporters did. Why did we fail? We let a suit dictate how supporter groups were structured. And now we're in the position we're in. Zero room for growth, horribly shaped sections for organization, tifo, and acoustics, and slowly but surely we're getting worse.

Section 8 had a slump when we came into the league. Why were they able to spring back up in the next few seasons? Because they had a solid foundation they could build upon if things went bad.

This needs to be made abundantly clear before the new owners purchase this club. Beirne is not a friend of the supporters. Quite the opposite.

Again, if you've been involved in any SG meetings with Paul and others at the club, you'd notice a lot of give-and-take. Don't get me wrong, the club has fucked up the relationship with the supporters more than a few times - and we've let them know about it. I totally agree that Paul isn't a friend of the supporters - but it's not really his job to be. He has tens of thousands of other fans that require his attention as well, and most of them don't really want anything to do with RPB or U-Sector.

[Roogsy]

Huh? This is the first I've ever heard of this. I know of a few old board posters who joined up to their respective clubs based on where they were sitting, but as a former exec myself who organized our first ever meetings and met with the club to sort our our seating needs, I have never seen or heard of this.



I'm not familiar with U-Sector's dealings with Beirne so I can't really comment except to say that all the U-Sector guys I talked to were happy with sitting in 113 at the time. But regardless of that, what you're saying would have left us off with even less seats for supporters. Right now RPBers makes up about half of 112 and half of 111 with a few pockets elsewhere. I would imagine U-Sector is the same with 113 and 114.



Again, if you've been involved in any SG meetings with Paul and others at the club, you'd notice a lot of give-and-take. Don't get me wrong, the club has fucked up the relationship with the supporters more than a few times - and we've let them know about it. I totally agree that Paul isn't a friend of the supporters - but it's not really his job to be. He has tens of thousands of other fans that require his attention as well, and most of them don't really want anything to do with RPB or U-Sector.

Cash has this spot on.

[Chris Wren]

The support should be suffering, we have been a horrible. Unless you're some emotionless robot it makes perfect sense that the singing is lacking intensity. It has got to where some feel embarrassed to be singing songs about our glory when we are so bad. On another note, I said this already, but I am positive the drummer was helping to keep the crowd subdued on Saturday. He stood there drumming with a 10% effort most of the game. A monotonous, droning, disinterested, ever changing beat. You can put that in 115 or anywhere else and it will still sound like crap. Some serious analysis needs to be done when it comes to who is drumming and when they are doing it and for what purpose. Doing a bad job doesn't help anything, and it shouldn't be exempt from criticism simply because he is trying or is a fellow supporter.

[brad]

This thread reminds me of why winning now is as critical to the future of this club as the potential of the academy (if not more important). The support and attendance is dying, and if the academy starts to churn out above average MLS caliber players in 5+ years (and that is a big if) there is going to be nobody left to watch them.

[kodiakTFC]

Its funny because on Saturday I looked around the stadium and said to those in attendance with me, "I'm surprised we get this many people still." We're 0-8 and have never had a winning team, the fact we still get a steady average of 18-20,000 per game is astounding. Sure the stadium is pretty quiet but whats there to cheer about? If we won some games I'm sure the sound would pick right back up because the atmosphere just a couple months ago against LAG and Santos was fantastic.

[TorontoGooner]

Just out of interest, what was the reasoning behind choosing the South East corner as the RPBs and U-Sector supporters sections? The reason I ask is that it always seemed a little odd that the part of the ground was chosen where its split up between that big void in the corner. Straight behind the goal would've been amazing.

I think its impressive that so many people still go. There's next to no atmosphere at the northern end of the ground, but still, the turn out is there.

Beside all this, the only way we'll get consistent full houses is if the club starts winning and ticket prices are more reasonable.

[ginkster88]

Very empty stadium at 80 mins on Saturday.

Still, it was quite full at mid first and second half.

Say what you will about the "casuals", they keep coming out win or lose.

[brad]

Its funny because on Saturday I looked around the stadium and said to those in attendance with me, "I'm surprised we get this many people still." We're 0-8 and have never had a winning team, the fact we still get a steady average of 18-20,000 per game is astounding. Sure the stadium is pretty quiet but whats there to cheer about? If we won some games I'm sure the sound would pick right back up because the atmosphere just a couple months ago against LAG and Santos was fantastic.

But, if the season continues as it is, you have to wonder how many STH's are going to let their tickets go. Apathy is growing, and STH are no longer a good deal when the market is flooded with sub-face tickets.

[Roogsy]

This thread reminds me of why winning now is as critical to the future of this club as the potential of the academy (if not more important). The support and attendance is dying, and if the academy starts to churn out above average MLS caliber players in 5+ years (and that is a big if) there is going to be nobody left to watch them.

But, if the season continues as it is, you have to wonder how many STH's are going to let their tickets go. Apathy is growing, and STH are no longer a good deal when the market is flooded with sub-face tickets.

You've got it bang on.

I was listening to scalpers talk before the game (and say what you want about them, at least they are a good indication of actual "demand" unlike the propaganda we get from TFC) and they were bemoaning how TFC tickets were impossible to offload. I personally am finding it hard to offload the tickets that I have and they're in supporters sections!

Long-term dreams are nice but if you don't take care of the short-term, you're never going to live to see your long-term goals realized.

People have bought into the long-term dream so much that they have been foolishly willing to sacrifice the short-term. TFC fans are our own worst enemies.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Just out of interest, what was the reasoning behind choosing the South East corner as the RPBs and U-Sector supporters sections? The reason I ask is that it always seemed a little odd that the part of the ground was chosen where its split up between that big void in the corner. Straight behind the goal would've been amazing.

I think its impressive that so many people still go. There's next to no atmosphere at the northern end of the ground, but still, the turn out is there.

Beside all this, the only way we'll get consistent full houses is if the club starts winning and ticket prices are more reasonable.

112 is a cozy little corner to fill. Later it spilled into 111.

[Super]

Its funny because on Saturday I looked around the stadium and said to those in attendance with me, "I'm surprised we get this many people still." We're 0-8 and have never had a winning team, the fact we still get a steady average of 18-20,000 per game is astounding. Sure the stadium is pretty quiet but whats there to cheer about? If we won some games I'm sure the sound would pick right back up because the atmosphere just a couple months ago against LAG and Santos was fantastic.

Reason: the weather was nice. Add rain and you can remove about half the crowd. The weather pretty much dictates attendance every game. We've played important games with thousands of empty seats (due to poor weather) and meaningless games close to selling out.

I wish TFC FO would build that damn roof already so we can permanently add a few thousand people to each game.

[Nomad]

Cash has this spot on.

I disagree with that assessment. He's actually a little wrong.

112 isn't half RPB anymore and i don't think U-Sector ever had half of 113 or 114. RPB may have sold themselves short on 112 and 50 tickets ( who knew) but the original idea from a supporters perspective was for 115 and that was nixed in favour of TV time.

TFC succeeded despite itself. But as the years go on those initial mistakes become more apparent. The FO has been consulted about this on numerous occasions over the years and while paying us lip service and token gestures have arrogantly chosen to ignore the obvious.

The King is dead.....long live the King.

[dupont]

Its funny because on Saturday I looked around the stadium and said to those in attendance with me, "I'm surprised we get this many people still."

That is exactly what I was thinking. I couldn't believe so many people still showed up considering our record.

[Davenport]

There are 10k fans there max to each game. That's every other seat filled and that's all there is at the moment
The attendance MLSE announces is tickets sold, not bums on seats.

I'd be very surprised if the ground was ever full again.
All the promises and lies from this joke of an organisation has killed it for many real fans, not just part-timers.

[Dave67]

Its funny because on Saturday I looked around the stadium and said to those in attendance with me, "I'm surprised we get this many people still." We're 0-8 and have never had a winning team, the fact we still get a steady average of 18-20,000 per game is astounding. Sure the stadium is pretty quiet but whats there to cheer about? If we won some games I'm sure the sound would pick right back up because the atmosphere just a couple months ago against LAG and Santos was fantastic.

I'm also surprised that many people still showed up. The fan base is still there and hopefully some day new blood and fresh ideas in the front office will lead to full stands again. As an ex season ticket holder who knows a few other ex season ticket holders, we all still follow the team, we watch every game and we are keen to get back in the stands.

This current lot has to go. Paul and Tom need a swift kick out the door. They were gift wrapped a full stadium with Beckham's signing and the party atmosphere of the South end. You can argue all you like that the party atmosphere was not 'real' support but it did a hell of a job of building interest. I don't think Paul B has any real clue how to fill a stadium or sell tickets. This club is going ticket selling 101. I know Groupon is a normal way of selling tickets these days, but to me it says lazy management with no fresh ideas on what the fans and supporters are looking for.

I'm not going into any detail on what I think they should do. My days of trying to sell tickets and give this club a free opinion on what to do are long over.

[Sally Mack]

There are 10k fans there max to each game. That's every other seat filled and that's all there is at the moment
The attendance MLSE announces is tickets sold, not bums on seats.

I'd be very surprised if the ground was ever full again.
All the promises and lies from this joke of an organisation has killed it for many real fans, not just part-timers.

Numbers reported are tickets scanned.

[KRO]

We're 0-8 and have scored 2 goals in 5 home games and we are having a debate about why the excitement level is down?
One of these games we're not going to have the energy to sing the Dichio song.

[james]

a way to fix the support is next season for start actually lower prices (that is very unlikely, MLSE couldn't bare the thought of ever lowering prices), many fans have had enough and not willing to pay higher prices to watch a 0-8-0 team, another maybe renovate the stadium. Add some roofs (many fans don't show up because the weather is raining and windy) and finally make all south end seats general admission Tickets. Supporter sections like red patch boys and usector will take over 115 section, the supporters section will be better organised and the singing will hopefully spread to 114 and 116 exc. Fans will also start showing up before the game actually starts because fans will know the sooner you get into the stadium the better chance you have of standing where you would like to (front row for example)

[ManUtd4ever]

To put this issue in perspective, what would be the average paid attendance in any other MLS market that has existed for at least 6 years (with our deplorable record of futility during that time span) if a club started the season 0-8?

I would guess 5000-7000 at best.

The big wigs at MLSE should be counting their lucky stars, but this season will be the end of the line unless the situation is rectified in short order.

[canadian_bhoy]

The blame for the drop in supporter quality is on Paul Beirne. He got everything wrong on day one and we're reaping the fruits of those errors now. Instead of going with what worked in Chicago and DC, he decided to reinvent the wheel and ignore U-Sector's wish to be in 115.

This simply isn't the case.

Initially, both supporters groups were planning on sitting in 115 and the club was fine with that. It was only after the designs came out and everyone realized that there was (and is) a large accessibility seating section right in front of 115 that everyone decided to move.

RPB decided to make the move to 112 at that point - and I would argue that our presence there has been much more impactful over the years than it would have been in 115 (Think Blanco with the streamers). As for U-Sector - one thing you have to give them credit for is that they have never done something at the request of anyone else. They have always done what they wanted to do. Moving to 113 was a choice they made - not forced from us or the club.

As for TFC screwing it all up. I'd say that in year 1 it was the opposite. They had no clue what they were doing (they have admitted this) - and they leaned a lot on the groups to lead the way.

I'll tell you where TFC blew it.

Mid-way through year 2 and in year 3, the club decided that they had it figured out. They were Strategy Magazine's brand of the year, they were hot shit and they had "gotten it right". It was only when they started to believe their own hype that things fell apart. Why? Because they didn't need the groups anymore. Prices went up, Real Madrid tickets were $150, "rules" started popping up here and there. The groups were still considered important, but not as crucial as they once were.

When that happened, people who believed in the club, people who felt ownership over the club started to fade away. Some of the loudest and best supporters in 112 started to leave, they started to get pushed away by the club - and they never came back. And with the team sucking, and the club not caring about the groups as much as they once did - well, the groups started changing too. The groups became less about trying to get an entire stadium involved and more about a tight knit group of people who wanted to do their thing. That brought some more people in, but it also pushed some more people out.

And that's that.

[james]

This simply isn't the case.

Initially, both supporters groups were planning on sitting in 115 and the club was fine with that. It was only after the designs came out and everyone realized that there was (and is) a large accessibility seating section right in front of 115 that everyone decided to move.

RPB decided to make the move to 112 at that point - and I would argue that our presence there has been much more impactful over the years than it would have been in 115 (Think Blanco with the streamers). As for U-Sector - one thing you have to give them credit for is that they have never done something at the request of anyone else. They have always done what they wanted to do. Moving to 113 was a choice they made - not forced from us or the club.

As for TFC screwing it all up. I'd say that in year 1 it was the opposite. They had no clue what they were doing (they have admitted this) - and they leaned a lot on the groups to lead the way.

I'll tell you where TFC blew it.

Mid-way through year 2 and in year 3, the club decided that they had it figured out. They were Strategy Magazine's brand of the year, they were hot shit and they had "gotten it right". It was only when they started to believe their own hype that things fell apart. Why? Because they didn't need the groups anymore. Prices went up, Real Madrid tickets were $150, "rules" started popping up here and there. The groups were still considered important, but not as crucial as they once were.

When that happened, people who believed in the club, people who felt ownership over the club started to fade away. Some of the loudest and best supporters in 112 started to leave, they started to get pushed away by the club - and they never came back. And with the team sucking, and the club not caring about the groups as much as they once did - well, the groups started changing too. The groups became less about trying to get an entire stadium involved and more about a tight knit group of people who wanted to do their thing. That brought some more people in, but it also pushed some more people out.

And that's that.

well said, i could agree with most of that.

[lobo]

Numbers reported are tickets scanned.

that is very difficult to believe considering the facts recorded by eyes and cameras at each game

18,364 people walked through the gates at BMO on saturday? wanna buy some ocean front property in saskatchewan?

it's been a topic of much discussion here in past few years, generally accepted that it is tickets sold, not scanned on game day ... if i recall correctly, there was some verification of league policy to report tickets sold/donated

[Technorgasm]

Ask anybody out there, and they'll tell you that the foundation of a great FOOTBALL player starts with an understanding of some basic fundamentals. Running, stretching, physical conditioning. These are the things that prepare your body for the many challenges a FOOTBALL player faces.
I heard that bullshit thrown at me all my damn life.

You know what Kenny Powers says?
Fundamentals are the crutch for the talentless.

[BBBulldog]

I cannot believe that when they added that section behind other goal they didn't ask to move your groups into it and made it GA or even given you control of tickets. It baffles my mind, but most things about mls do.

Break down support in North America into three tiers.

Tier 1: Cream of the crop. Seattle, Portland, and when they're on point Chicago. (and IMO when they move into Saputo, UM02. They made us look really bad on both occasions we visited this year, great group vocally. Need to step up their visuals though)
Tier 2: Up and coming, constantly improving. KC, RSL, San Jose, Philly, LA, NYRB, Columbus, Colorado.
Tier 3: Fragmented, unorganized, stagnating. Toronto, Dallas, Vancouver, New England, Chivas, DC (no offense to District Ultras, fantastic group, but this is about DC as a whole, in a SSS with all four groups in one section and DU leading, easily Tier 1.).

0 problem with that, if we could have repaired DC downhill spiral without separating from Barra we would have. Instead we had to start from nothing with 9 people, no section, no flags, no money and rebuild it all back up in environment that already has 3 groups, at that time very hostile FO (to us, not others) and worst team in MLS. So I guess we should be proof that it's possible, tho it will take a good while longer to get up in numbers All 4 behind goal would probably be a disaster lol