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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by moralis View Post
    Where did you read that: Mariner does not say that he is not looking for a top class centre back

    Here's the two articles

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer...uver-whitecaps

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer...ronto-fc-match

    Please tell us where he says that?
    Here ya go..

    "I’m not going to say we’re light at the back because the back four have been absolutely spectacular,” he told reporters. “But you do need a couple of players in to give them some rest.”

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    It's going to take a lot for me to ever cheer for this guy.

    This singing just highlights how massave of a blow lossing Kovs was.... Now we got the Shitcaps cry baby to deal with. I hope he dose well but he will never replace Kovs in my heart!

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    I'm happy with this trade. I think we now have a fighting chance in the CCL (although Santos is still the heavy favourites). Don't think we are making the playoffs, but I'm sure wins will help renewals. I bet the recent string of wins has already changed a number of minds that were certain at 0-9 to not renew. TFC wants to keep the momentum going.

    Wouldn't surprise me at all if TFC extends Hassli's contract in the off season.

    Amadao Geuvara was a massive douche too before he joined TFC, and fans had no trouble getting behind him. I see no issue cheering on Hassli as a TFC player.
    Last edited by narduch; 07-21-2012 at 08:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra & Proud View Post
    I just don't get how some people think formation decides everything. Formation means nothing. You really think all our academy players will say 'Oops, that's a 4-4-2 on the 1st squad. I can't play that. I'll have to search out the B leagues of Europe to find another 4-3-3 team'. As mentioned by others KC & Van switched to a 4-3-3 just like we did under Cummins and it makes little difference. The tactics will but not the formation.
    I think I can answer this and demine's request to keep it on topic at the same time.

    The reason it matters is the very reason that Hassli was made available. The system dictates the type of players you bring in.

    Said Mark Webber of the Province:

    Rennie's 4-3-3 system, which defensively looks more like 4-5-1, demands plenty of running up top, and Hassli covers far less ground than Sebastien Le Toux or Mattocks. That's part of the reason why Hassli's seen so few starts.
    Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Wh...#ixzz21GMZW3NG

    If your goal is forward first in thinking, or long ball, you need big boots at the back and big targets up front. You don't look for skilled short passers or quick forwards that can press high. You need big target men such as Hassli. You don't need smaller, quick forwards like Plata.

    Given the DP investment in Hassli and the high price of a draft pick, the system is now set through 2013 and Mariner will promote, seek and sign players that can support his system. It's not necessarily a bad thing if you think "Forward First" thinking can beat Total Football over the long term. He's doing it his way and I hope when the next 14 games are complete and CCL group stage is done, Mariner will be vindicated.

    Over the long term though, I don't happen to be one of those that think this system will result in a Championship.

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    I think this trade is impossible to evaluate until we see where we finish in 2013, but a couple of statements can be made:

    - Hassli is a really nice player. I think I would have traded Koevs for him, and face it, we may never see Koevs again. Strikers are streaky, that's fine.
    - Last place teams trading future number one picks is a recipe for disaster.
    - It is disconcerting to have to spend potential valuable draft picks on DPs. That seems damned weird to me.

    I like the trade less this morning than I did when I first heard it.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I think this trade is impossible to evaluate until we see where we finish in 2013, but a couple of statements can be made:

    - Hassli is a really nice player. I think I would have traded Koevs for him, and face it, we may never see Koevs again. Strikers are streaky, that's fine.
    - Last place teams trading future number one picks is a recipe for disaster.
    - It is disconcerting to have to spend potential valuable draft picks on DPs. That seems damned weird to me.

    I like the trade less this morning than I did when I first heard it.
    In other words, Hassli is a good trade, we just overpaid for it, as it appears at the moment. I agree on the future number one picks. The only way to balance the scale is to finish better when season ends so the bona fide first pick overall is rather 5th or 6th.
    RPB Road Warrior: supporting Toronto FC anywhere on planet earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by pekduck View Post
    In other words, Hassli is a good trade, we just overpaid for it, as it appears at the moment. I agree on the future number one picks.
    Not just #1 picks

    In 2010, the pick we traded for Serioux turned into Zach Loyd, a defender with 71 appearances for FC Dallas and a Cap to the USMNT in his 2+ seasons. He is 25 years old today.

    Serioux played 26 games for us before We traded him to Houston, for a 3rd round pick

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Not just #1 picks

    In 2010, the pick we traded for Serioux turned into Zach Loyd, a defender with 71 appearances for FC Dallas and a Cap to the USMNT in his 2+ seasons. He is 25 years old today.

    Serioux played 26 games for us before We traded him to Houston, for a 3rd round pick
    did we just turned into Toronto Maple Leafs? wait... never mind....
    RPB Road Warrior: supporting Toronto FC anywhere on planet earth

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    We've been playing all year with only one legitmate central striker in the entire team. Mariner comes in, and we move to a 2 striker system, still without a second strker. Koef gets hurt, and we're now playing with no real central strikers in a 2 striker system. Whatever your thinking on short v. long-term, no team can play without a legitimate striker for half a season (especially in a 2 striker system). It was a no brainer that a striker was the priority, and if you can get a top one in the league, why not? It's a great move in my view.

    I wonder about the Southsiders thinking Boca is coming to them. Would he not have to go through allocation first? And is Vancouver not at the bottom of the allocation list now? I thought NE and then us is the order now?

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by narduch View Post
    I'm happy with this trade. I think we now have a fighting chance in the CCL (although Santos is still the heavy favourites). Don't think we are making the playoffs, but I'm sure wins will help renewals. I bet the recent string of wins has already changed a number of minds that were certain at 0-9 to not renew. TFC wants to keep the momentum going.

    Wouldn't surprise me at all if TFC extends Hassli's contract in the off season.

    Amadao Geuvara was a massive douche too before he joined TFC, and fans had no trouble getting behind him. I see no issue cheering on Hassli as a TFC player.
    This is exactly what TFC is all about since Winter got deservedly fired,there is no ling term plan or any plan as it is,it is all about ST renewals. Season was lost in May and I rather have another shit season with full house clean up at the end of this year with 25% cheaper tickets next year because of low ST renewal rate,a slim hope that we can squeeze into the playoffs will give them excuse to gouge us once again for same product as it was in 2007.


    Hasli will be a good addition to TFC,he is the best we can get,don't expect any other big names from Europe or SA coming here,TFC FO reeks incompetence and players agents are aware of that, Mellberg coming is very possible because they are negotiating with him for over a month now,most of the players don't have that time to wait and usually move on to the next best offer,just like Nesta did.
    Great love does not exist without joy and without great suffering ,that's why One club is worth only as much as its fans !


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    Quote Originally Posted by pekduck View Post
    did we just turned into Toronto Maple Leafs? wait... never mind....
    It's definitely the MLSE hail mary move.

    Someday we may have to put up a statue of Kessel, Lowry and Hassli, down where the ACC used to stand, before people stopped caring and they tore it down.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    wrote this on my blog Monday past when I wrote a piece about Koevermans.....

    Can't fucking believe it... I actually got one right for once!



    Interestingly a move out west this week might offer TFC some sort of a lifeline if another Canadian club can be convinced to deal with Toronto again. Scottish International Kenny Miller has signed on Monday as the Vancouver Whitecaps third Designated Player. He and the emerging Darren Mattocks have essentially banished 2011 stud striker (and TFC killer) Eric Hassli to the bench. Hassli would be an excellent replacement for Koevermans if some sort of reasonable deal could be brokered and the fact that there would be more opportunities down the road to burn Vancouver with a former player the way Terry Dunfield did last week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pekduck View Post
    did we just turned into Toronto Maple Leafs? wait... never mind....
    It gets a little worse.

    We traded our 1st in 2011 for Nathan Sturgis. Vancouver used it on Nanchoff but taken just after him was CJ Saprong and Will Bruin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dub Narcotic View Post
    In which bizarro MLS is this true? He's never had a great goal-scoring record in MLS
    http://soccernet.espn.go.com/player/...hassli?cc=5901

    In 2011, Hassli started in 21 league matches, scoring 10 goals and 1 assist. In the Canadian Championship he scored 2 goals in 4 games.

    In 2012, Hassli has started in 9 league matches, scoring 2 goals and 3 assists. In the Canadian Championship, he scored 2 goals in 4 games.

    Statistically speaking, I beg to differ with your analysis.

    But like i said, to each his own.

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    The way I see it, this trade is a sto-pgap measure to get us through to the end of the season. If Hassili does well, maybe they'll keep him around. If he doesn't, then he comes off the books at the end of the year (after season ticket renewals have gone through). I dont like giving up a 1st round draft pick for it though.

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    By definition a DP should be better than a 1st round draft pick in MLS.

    But the optics of it reek.

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    The season is likely lost, and from that standpoint, I can understand the confusion over the motivation of this deal.

    However, if you take into account that TFC still has the CCL to play for, an unlikely but mathematically possible shot at the playoffs, and has the club option on Hassli's contract for next season, it makes sense that Mariner rushed to replace our undisputed MVP in Koevs this season.

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    Good move by Mariner. We'll see how hassli does with Mariner's 4-4-2 while Koef is out. A 4-4-2 suits him better than a 4-3-3. If I recall the Caps under Thordarson played a similar formation and he did well. Probably didn't do well for Soehn because well... Soehn is an idiot.
    - He'll get the playing time here
    - Contract is up after this year. I could see him renewing with a slight drop in salary to about $400-500k which could be bought down with magical allocation money and not take up a DP spot.
    - If he doesn't do well, simple, don't renew and release him.
    - If Koef returns next year, partner them up top and let it rain goals on the opposition!

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    I like the signing. Hassli should be motivated by his contract expiration and for being dumped by Van.

    Why does everyone complain when management gets in players to try to win? It always comes back to ML$E trying to increase ticket sales and raise prices. Would you rather TFC stink it up year after year so you can save a buck and always have something to whine about? We are all supporters for this team right? Sometimes I wonder.

  20. #140
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    I like the move. all the positives pointed out above I agree with.

    Some other random points:

    1) inserting Hassli into the current lineup keeps everything intact that has worked so far. It also preserves our chances of actually winning, and winning more games is good for development of the younger players even if we don't make the playoffs. As Ives Garlarcep said on Twitter, many MLS teams have ressurrected seasons in the second half and that success has rolled into the next season.

    2) If Danny is out for one full year, that means just as Danny returns next summer, Hassli's DP contract is over (he's apparently signed until next June). As we saw with Cann and Dicoy, it can take a looong time for these guys to rehab. So it isn't a given that Koev will be ready for the start of next season. Right now, Danny is not a DP against the roster according to Mariner. So Mariner could still sign another DP for CB now or in the off-season.

    3) Hassli's contract could be renegotiated in the offseason in a way that takes him off the DP designation and maybe even doesn't hit the cap as hard as a DP does. It's a club option for 6 months.. Does Hassli want a guarantee of more employment beyond that? That's leverage for lowering his deal but still keeping him.

    4) Vancouver took our 2011 draft pick and turned it into Michael Nanchoff, a guy who has barely played in two seasons. Everyone talks about Mattocks but he was an obvious pick after Wenger was taken (like Mo Johnston choosing Maurice Edu -- nobody ever gives Mo credit for that since Edu was the obvious choice). There's no guarantee Vancouver will be smart enough to pick the right player IF -- and we hope -- that TFC's pick isn't a low one due to increased success. I find it amusing that people cite the players who have succeeded from the draft but fail to cite all the failures. There are more failures than successes. Even in the 2012 draft, a small minority of the first round picks are actually playing regularly this season. If Vancouver picks, I dunno, 8th with TFC's 2014 pick, will they pick another Michael Nanchoff or Darren Mattocks? No guarantees there. And based on what happened in the 2012 draft, the likelihood of that pick actually starting and contributing in 2014 in low. So the impact of the pick may start to happen -- if Vancouver makes a good pick -- in 2015. That's three years away.

    5) I think some people create this dichotomy between long term and short term, as if every move the team makes must be in one or the other category. If one move is long term and one move is short term this seems inconsistent to some people. As if we should have just given up on this season and only focused on the future. But when does "the future" come? I'm a bit tired of waiting for this mythical future when everything will be perfect. Let's be pragmatic instead. We've got future (Morgan, Henry, Eckersley, Lambe, Silva etc). MLS is a league in which a team can rebuild within a season. We could be a decent team before that 2014 draft pick is even contributing. Not to mention the fact we have a draft pick for 2013 -- this guy could make an impact sooner, if you believe the draft is so important.

  21. #141
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    Now if Mariner can somehow pry the unsettled Brek Shea out of Dallas, sign McKenna or Mellberg and maybe add a decent depth CM, I'd be happy!

    "
    Hell is always loose here. It can't break loose again
    ."
    -Fort York Redcoat, on the state of TFC

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    We'll see what happens. Can't really make a proper evaluation until we actually see how Hassli plays; the impact he has for the team; who Vancity picks up and how that kid plays out.
    From what little I've seen of him against TFC, I'd say he's a good pick. Target striker is what this team is based around for scoring goals, so getting one in like him is great. He is a beast. Type of strikers defenders would fear. He's gritty and mean. Will be great personality fit for TFC supporters and the city. We love grinders, right? At least now we have one with skill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    I think I can answer this and demine's request to keep it on topic at the same time.

    The reason it matters is the very reason that Hassli was made available. The system dictates the type of players you bring in.

    Said Mark Webber of the Province:

    Rennie's 4-3-3 system, which defensively looks more like 4-5-1, demands plenty of running up top, and Hassli covers far less ground than Sebastien Le Toux or Mattocks. That's part of the reason why Hassli's seen so few starts.
    Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Wh...#ixzz21GMZW3NG

    If your goal is forward first in thinking, or long ball, you need big boots at the back and big targets up front. You don't look for skilled short passers or quick forwards that can press high. You need big target men such as Hassli. You don't need smaller, quick forwards like Plata.

    Given the DP investment in Hassli and the high price of a draft pick, the system is now set through 2013 and Mariner will promote, seek and sign players that can support his system. It's not necessarily a bad thing if you think "Forward First" thinking can beat Total Football over the long term. He's doing it his way and I hope when the next 14 games are complete and CCL group stage is done, Mariner will be vindicated.

    Over the long term though, I don't happen to be one of those that think this system will result in a Championship.
    It's working in San Jose, with Wondolowski and Gordon/Lenhart. They're scoring most of their goals off two strikers banging in the box, both big guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by denime View Post
    This is exactly what TFC is all about since Winter got deservedly fired,there is no ling term plan or any plan as it is,it is all about ST renewals.
    I've heard this in more than a few places unfortunately. Enough for me to buy-in that it might have some truth.

    I wonder if some people are getting scared for their jobs and such, I think this year TFC is going to get savaged on renewals regardless of what they do. There is basically no message they can trot out to sell people on coming back who they've pissed off. Hassli or no, good run to end the season or not... they've lost credibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Over the long term though, I don't happen to be one of those that think this system will result in a Championship.
    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    It's working in San Jose, with Wondolowski and Gordon/Lenhart. They're scoring most of their goals off two strikers banging in the box, both big guys.
    You beat me to it while I was preparing some stats for the "system" thread. Forget the past. That's TODAY in MLS and just gets ignored because it doesn't fit the narrative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post
    Hassli's DP contract is over (he's apparently signed until next June)..
    I doubt he is signed until mid-season. More than likely the option is for all of 2013. The confusion comes from a Swiss website that probably doesn't understand that MLS plays a summer season.

    Just like when people would read transfermaket.de and think De Guzman was signed until half of this season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManUtd4ever View Post
    The season is likely lost, and from that standpoint, I can understand the confusion over the motivation of this deal.

    However, if you take into account that TFC still has the CCL to play for, an unlikely but mathematically possible shot at the playoffs, and has the club option on Hassli's contract for next season, it makes sense that Mariner rushed to replace our undisputed MVP in Koevs this season.
    CCL is the only reason it makes sense to give up a 1st round pick this year. (well that and season ticket renewals)

    Hassli would likely become out of contract with Vancouver in the off season, at which point Koevermans health would also be known. Same player could have been picked up for the cost of an offer, no draft pick necessary. You would then have the luxury of looking at all available DP options, none that require a draft pick.

    I get we are looking for immediate results. Hassli fits Mariner's system.

    But imagine a team with Cronin, Loyd, Saprong/Bruin instead of the one we got with a short stay for Serioux, Sturgis and Allocation money. Those draft picks are important and to give one up when the same player may have been had for nothing, means that the investment needs to pay immediate dividends.

    Incidently, if you believe Hassli will improve the team's MLS fortunes, they inadvertently hurt their draft position in 2013. Success now means picking later on in the 2013 draft. Sort of like the Leafs trading for a veteran to help them get to 9th place in the conference and outside the draft lottery.

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    Whitecaps fan/season tix holder here--but I come in peace. I actually lived in TO for the first few years of TFC's existence and supported them for a time (loved going to see games in your section(s)), so I still have a bit of a soft spot for you guys, so I'll try my best to give as balanced of a perspective as I can.

    As many of you have pointed out, Hassli has been extremely clutch for us, and has probably scored the 4 most important goals in our MLS existence-- our first goal, the world-class goal against Seattle last year, a clutch extra-time winner against San Jose and that rocket-volley he scored against you guys in the Amway game this year in Vancouver. Based on those 4 goals alone, he will forever be a legend for whitecaps fans. But the reality of this season was that apart from a couple clutch goals he has been quite ineffective and deservedly lost his spot in the starting 11. He is definitely strong, and has a rocket of a shot, but often relies on his strength rather than positioning to fight for loose balls, which often ends up with unnecessary fouls being called against him. His first touch has not been very good this year (nor was it really exceptional last year), and for a big man he is very poor in the air (apparently he suffered a bad head injury in the past playing in europe...). I think it was clear to most 'realistic' whitecaps supporters that he was great to have as a sort of 'super sub' off the bench to help push for a late goal in a game, but from a salary-management perspective it didn't make much sense to be paying DP money to someone to come off the bench late in the game.

    That being said, I still think you guys will love him, and I think you'll probably be hearing a lot of Dichio comparisons on the boards. He oozes intensity and his finishing can be world class with the right service. Your situation probably suits him well since it appears he will be your go-to striker by default so with increased opportunity he should be able to score some goals for you. But for those of you who think you're getting a top-class MLS DP striker will probably be disappointed... I would be shocked if anyone in the MLS would renew his contract for DP money next year. Personally, I was hoping we could decline his option next year and renegotiate a non-DP contract for next year as more of a depth/secondary striker, so I think what you gave up for him may have been a bit steep (I was expecting we would get even less if anything in his move just to free up his salary), but I guess draft picks are always a crapshoot, and considering the fantastic memories he's given to caps fans I'm happy he's going to a club where he'll see more opportunity to try and lengthen his career. Best of luck to Eric and I hope you enjoy him!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sproo View Post
    Whitecaps fan/season tix holder here--but I come in peace. I actually lived in TO for the first few years of TFC's existence and supported them for a time (loved going to see games in your section(s)), so I still have a bit of a soft spot for you guys, so I'll try my best to give as balanced of a perspective as I can.

    As many of you have pointed out, Hassli has been extremely clutch for us, and has probably scored the 4 most important goals in our MLS existence-- our first goal, the world-class goal against Seattle last year, a clutch extra-time winner against San Jose and that rocket-volley he scored against you guys in the Amway game this year in Vancouver. Based on those 4 goals alone, he will forever be a legend for whitecaps fans. But the reality of this season was that apart from a couple clutch goals he has been quite ineffective and deservedly lost his spot in the starting 11. He is definitely strong, and has a rocket of a shot, but often relies on his strength rather than positioning to fight for loose balls, which often ends up with unnecessary fouls being called against him. His first touch has not been very good this year (nor was it really exceptional last year), and for a big man he is very poor in the air (apparently he suffered a bad head injury in the past playing in europe...). I think it was clear to most 'realistic' whitecaps supporters that he was great to have as a sort of 'super sub' off the bench to help push for a late goal in a game, but from a salary-management perspective it didn't make much sense to be paying DP money to someone to come off the bench late in the game.

    That being said, I still think you guys will love him, and I think you'll probably be hearing a lot of Dichio comparisons on the boards. He oozes intensity and his finishing can be world class with the right service. Your situation probably suits him well since it appears he will be your go-to striker by default so with increased opportunity he should be able to score some goals for you. But for those of you who think you're getting a top-class MLS DP striker will probably be disappointed... I would be shocked if anyone in the MLS would renew his contract for DP money next year. Personally, I was hoping we could decline his option next year and renegotiate a non-DP contract for next year as more of a depth/secondary striker, so I think what you gave up for him may have been a bit steep (I was expecting we would get even less if anything in his move just to free up his salary), but I guess draft picks are always a crapshoot, and considering the fantastic memories he's given to caps fans I'm happy he's going to a club where he'll see more opportunity to try and lengthen his career. Best of luck to Eric and I hope you enjoy him!
    nicely worded,...we're TO,...always overpaying and selling our souls to the devil......we can NEVER replace DK...regardless of what people think,...his heart and his recently found game shape, made him our true TFC leader.....mlse simply without true scouts or the ability to pull out real hidden 'talents' are hoping that Hassli will simply be a stop gap to get them thru the year,..without losing anymore fans or STH's....in a sense the team had to do something , hopefully a CB is found, but I think our shopping is done
    ALL HELL'S BROKEN LOOSEhttp://gfycat.com/SharpKindArrowana

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    - Last place teams trading future number one picks is a recipe for disaster.
    - It is disconcerting to have to spend potential valuable draft picks on DPs. That seems damned weird to me.

    I like the trade less this morning than I did when I first heard it.
    You are too hung up on MLS Super Draft. It is not the end-game for MLS teams. It is nothing compared to NBA or NHL drafts. I don't know if you witnessed the friendly match this afternoon but the TFCA is doing what it is meant to do, support the main squad with talented kids. We will see the fruits of TFCA in 2013 and beyond I'm sure.

 

 

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