Gotta agree with Ensco here...We have played some seriously entertaining games lately. Not always good, but that Colorado match was easily one of the best in our history.
to add...I am curious, does anyone think we played more attractive football under Winter?
Sorry but that's a "you" problem, not an "it" problem. There have been 2 or 3 clunkers (the Dallas game was a yawn, too) but that's it. The rest have been pretty good, or even great.Originally Posted by pekduck
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
I think we tried to play more academic style under AW, which had a promise to be absolutely beautiful, but missed important pieces to compete in this league. I liked the way we tried to spread the game wide.
With PM we play more pragmatically, not aiming to be trend-setters, just trying to outwork the competition.
Different people like different aspects of the game, I suppose.
exactly!
so that's why i don't get your reply to pookie, since that's his frame of reference. everyone has their own expectations, depending on their frame of reference.
the "it" here has no problem if "it" has "its" expection set and they are in alignment
i digress....
I understand and know all that, my question was a bit of sarcasm. I liked the idea Winter had...would love to watch my club play that brand of footy well but they didn't even come close. I'd rank the 44 matches under Winter as some of the most un-watchable football we have seen in 5 years. Forget the concept, what we actually saw was horrendous.
Next time you could use word Bazinga to indicate sarcasm, and as I said different people enjoy different aspects of the game.
Have you watched a SKC game that didn't involve us? There almost is no game plan. It's all spreading the field and pressing non-stop in an effort to force errors that lead to their counter. It is an ugly spectacle football-wise. I appreciate the athleticism required to push so hard and so long but it is a long way from what most people on these boards would equate to beautiful football. But it works so that's that. We'll see how it plays out for them physically for 34+ matches when the playoffs come around.
And the thing with our old system wasn't that it was too complex for our players to grasp but rather too simple for the rest of the league to figure out (and neutralize/take advantage of). Best of all, after they did, we still did the exact same things. Astounding.
Winter seems to have taken ever ounce of fun out of the game for the players he turned road trips into military service. Add in a few losses, the losses of Frings the only person holding the team together, and Koevs form, and we lose.
At the end of last year the team didn't suddenly get the system, Two players were brought in to help on the field. .. Those two players are the reason we had a half decent end. We were basically playing 5-2-3
I believe by what the boys have said, is that Winter was over complicating things and wanted the end result always without a learning curve.
Kansas City has played a creative 4-3-3 were play can come from more then one area. With Winter play game from the same area's ever time... play was built up from the back, from the two CBs. into a Mid Field to Frings or JDG. Morgan and/or Ecks would start a run, a pass would move to them or a AM. and then it was moved to the wings and crossed in. For Koevs if lucky or for the winger if it was long.
Other MLS teams just looked at us and pushed forward clogged up the midfield and then no one new what to do. Ball would eventually be intercepted and we'd be on a counter, with a high line.
After July 2011 Frings and Koev gave enough skill to make it work in a way it hadn't up to that point, and we started to do well...
In CCL we were playing teams that a less heavy handed style, and didn't do their homework. So we had a little more space, and the counters started a little further back. With LA we had the same thing, Even in Santos we were doing well till the Heat and Altitude took it's tool around minute 60.
This season we lost in Santos, we lost Frings at the beginning and MLS teams knew how to deal and no decent CB was brought in, and instead of having a good length preseason and trialing 5 or 6 CBs to find who fit the roll, we had a very minor preseason. This shows Winter really didn't understand what was happening.
Under Winter, we may have ended up in the same score line over the last 10 games as Mariner did, with Frings and Koev in the line up. The issue isn't that Mariner has made the boys play better, it's that he's done two things, he's put the fun back in to some extent, and he has said we can't rely on Frings and Koev for wins. And he's set up a system and worked with the players so they can adapt on their own.
It's no long Frings, Koev and TFC on the field. Its TFC. That is the change.
Call it Hoof ball, call it what ever you want, it helps build the confidence of the boys, and as I've said Mariner may move back into a 4-3-3 later one... but right now he needs the boys to play well. Right now to get a play of stop we can not lose more then 1 game in the next 14. It's not really workable. but we can salvage as much of the system as possible.
And once again we hear from RJ that Mariner is successfully motivating the players, adapting to the situation, he is getting the players to play, and confidence is coming... and that is important, and it's something Winter either couldn't or wouldn't do.
I'd suspect having a back line with the experience levels that we have factored mightily into how easily other teams figured us out. The lack of an experienced, controlling CB has meant that our players have been "schooled" on their positions. Any mistake has often led to the back of the net. We were slightly better off last year when Frings was patrolling the back line. Moving Frings out of that area (and his subsequent injury) has probably significantly influenced our lack of success this year, moreso that any adaptation by opponents.
No my reply was to denime, who claimed that since Mariner came in "most of our games were unwatchable".exactly!
so that's why i don't get your reply to pookie, since that's his frame of reference. everyone has their own expectations, depending on their frame of reference.
the "it" here has no problem if "it" has "its" expection set and they are in alignment
i digress....
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
I stand corrected. My apologies.
On whole, I never found Aron Winter's team to be as entertaining and appealing as it was supposed to be in theory... and not just because the results were poor.
I thought the execution of the game plan was pretty bad and things never opened up and became as dynamic as we had all dreamed. I'll remember the Seattle game at the start of the year and the RSL away as two notable performance (although we won neither game). I found much of the "creativity" was through individual play and not as a unit as I had hoped.
I think last time out vs. Colorado I saw more smart team play than i ever did under AW. That's not to say we didn't just hoof the ball forward blindly at times, but I thought that when we did keep the ball we did a good job of creating some chances. The balls that Silva and Morgan played through to Frings were better than anything I ever saw under Winter IMO.
Last edited by ag futbol; 07-20-2012 at 03:32 PM.
Just for fun:
“There’s no hiding from the fact that (our) early Champions Leagues games maybe had an effect on some of our league performances,” Terry Dunfield said.
but thats what he was hired for. anyone that knows where winter comes from understands that. this club wanted what they do at Ajax? they got it.
Amsterdam did not produce some of the best players messing about. its all business. from the kids up. and clearly not what works here.
TFC confirmed on twitter we just signed Hassli for a first rounder and an international slot
Where's Carts? He must be going crazy with this news and gettinglike tomorrow's end of the world
After Kovermans injury: Mariner talks about having 2 DPS:
http://www.torontofc.ca/video/2012/0...r-july-17-2012.
Listen to Mariner: Starts at 4:20 to 4:40.
Outside of Klinnsman I doubt anyone in the FO involved in the hiring process knows that... you'd be lucky if they can identify a Football from a Volleyball.
And I'm not sure if the way Winter worked here is truely the way it worked at Ajax... because De Klerk is still here, Winter isn't.
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