POSSESSION vs DIRECT/COUNTER ATTACKING/PARK THE BUS STYLE

[Pookie]

Can someone tell me how the Academy fits into all this? For the U18s this season, two standout players have been Omari Morris (a pacey winger who is played on the right side of a front 3) and Sergio Camargo (a small technically gifted midfielder who scores goals and plays centrally in a 3 man midfield). Currently the first team plays a system and formation that would have no use for them. The players (plata and soolsma) who played the position Morris plays have been shipped out and the players (silva and avila) who played a similar role as Camargo have been played as wide midfielders in a flat 4 under Mariner.

When the team correctly replaced Winter, they chose to move in a direction to achieve immediate results in season where making the the play offs would all but be impossible. Will this have a detrimental effect on the Academy? These kids are being trained to play a way that might have little use to the first team. When it comes times to graduate them, will Mariner want them? Will they want to play for Toronto?

So the question is, how do academy players fit in with the future of this team? I was at Downsview on Friday for the U18 match, Danny and Thomas are doing a great job developing young technical footballers. I would hate to see all of the time and resources being put into this the academy go to waste.

Another player I saw on Friday and that I've been impressed with the few times I have seen him play live this year is Tyler Pasher. He is a leftback similar to Ashton Morgan. Does a great job get up and down the sideline withespeed and can provide a good cross. It both continue to develop at their current pace, by the time Ashton is getting attention from larger clubs he could be a great replacement.

This is the rub.

If Mariner promotes these players, he essentially makes himself obsolete. While some of us theorize that the Academy playing one way and the first team playing another will somehow magically result in a smooth transition to the first team these miss some major points.

1) The more players and coaches he brings in that can nurture the Klinsmann model, the less important he becomes
2) The players he needs to bring in to support his system are not the same ones that can excel under the Klinsmann model.
3) Beach Red makes a great point, attracting players here will be a challenge. Plata already left because he felt he couldn't develop under Mariner. If you are a US player, with USMNT aspirations, and the USMNT is playing 4-3-3, are you going to want to come here and wait for the transition to 4-3-3? If the transition is on again, are you going to want to lose again?
4) Let's assume that they decide in 2013 to play 4-3-3, are we purging the roster? Players that can play Mariner's system are on multi-year deals. A player like Dunfield is on the roster until his contract expires or he is waived. Either way, the flexibility to overhaul a roster over night is severely limited

For those reasons and many others, Academies and First Teams are learning the same system, at the same time. It's sort of being half-way pregnant. You are either on board or not. There really is no seamless middle ground

[v00d00daddy]

In all likelihood, by the time these kids are ready to be promoted to the first team, Paul Mariner will no longer be on the sidelines.

Hopefully not.

But then the logical question will be:

Why did we go with Mariner at all?

So that supporters could feel good about grinding out some results for half a season?

Results that will serve nothing but convince some people not to give up their season tickets.

Why couldn't they just say:

"we've moved on from Aron Winter but have brought in _______ to get results while continuing the vision of playing attractive, possession based football"

Why was the reaction so harsh?

How does this club think that appointing Mariner and promoting Brennan to a first team coach makes sense and falls in line with what they told us a year and a half ago?

And why are we buying it?

Because of a terrible win against NE? Lol

I can't hang my hat on that. Sorry...I just can't.

[Greatest Ripoff]

In all likelihood, by the time these kids are ready to be promoted to the first team, Paul Mariner will no longer be on the sidelines.

And is there is no long term plan for Mariner, then why is he in charge right now and making decisions that effect the long term for Toronto?

[ag futbol]

Have we started the rebuild? No. Have we started the tear down? Yes.

Colorado won a championship playing ugly. Not sure how many other teams will. I think our current direction is a recipe for being a mid-table team. And that's what our results so far show too.

Pretty much what I see out of it. It has low downside, but also low upside.

I think there's a lot of middle ground to be covered when it comes to possession football. I don't think it should be stated in terms of our current style vs. Spain. We don't always have to dink the ball around the back, but I think playing too direct is self defeating.

[Greatest Ripoff]

Pretty much what I see out of it. It has low downside, but also low upside.

I think there's a lot of middle ground to be covered when it comes to possession football. I don't think it should be stated in terms of our current style vs. Spain. We don't always have to dink the ball around the back, but I think playing too direct is self defeating.

Yes there is a lot of middle ground. TFC will never play like Spain or Barcelona, but why can't Toronto play a similar to Swansea? They proved all you need is good coaching and players who can work hard without the ball and have confidence with the ball at their feet.

[Huyton]

If we kept up our current form under Mariner (3-4-2) wouldn't that actually get us very close to the play offs? If not IN the play offs?

Not quite. Mariner has got 13 points from 9 games. That would be 27 points from 19 games. Good enough for in 6th place, 1 point behind Houston. Incidentally, 27 points would be good enough for a playoff spot in the West Division.

We are, however, within striking distance of Montreal. The Limp-Act have 21 points from 21 games, we have 16 points from 19 games. If we win both games in hand, we'll have 22 points.

[Beach_Red]

Hopefully not.

But then the logical question will be:

Why did we go with Mariner at all?

So that supporters could feel good about grinding out some results for half a season?

Results that will serve nothing but convince some people not to give up their season tickets.

Why couldn't they just say:

"we've moved on from Aron Winter but have brought in _______ to get results while continuing the vision of playing attractive, possession based football"

Why was the reaction so harsh?

How does this club think that appointing Mariner and promoting Brennan to a first team coach makes sense and falls in line with what they told us a year and a half ago?

And why are we buying it?

Because of a terrible win against NE? Lol

I can't hang my hat on that. Sorry...I just can't.

It was definitely a thrown-together plan. The decision was made to change coaches to try and grind out some wins. You can't go 0-34, no matter what your future plans may be or what you're building towards. Winter was offered another job and chose not to take it. There was certainly not going to be any more money spent on yet another coach (Anselmi admitted he needed board approval to remove Winter so he certainly need board approval to sign another contract and there was no way he was getting that).

So, a year and half a go they told us something we wanted to hear - it was quite out of character with everything else they'd done before that but suddenly we decided this time it was the truth. Well, we spent a few season "just happy to have a team," and not very worried about the fact that they'd never bothered to put together a proper front office and infrastructure so I guess they figured they could keep telling us whatever we wanted to hear and we'd never look behind the curtain.

It's possible the new ownership will make big changes, but more likely Paul Mariner will get kicked upstairs (someone has to be the 'soccer guy' between MLSE and TFC) and as the US and academy produces enough players to allow the team to change style a new, younger coach will be brought in to do it.

This really has nothing to do with a few wins under Mariner, it has to do with TFC finally becoming an MLS team. I like your posts, you're an interesting guy, but this league clearly isn't for you - yet. Maybe you should take a break and come back in a few years when the league is better. If it is better. The one weakness in this whole plan is that US soccer is going to get better. Let's hope it does.

[Stouffville_RPB]

Winter:
Team.........Poss.....Venue..Result
Average .....47.9.... 6H,4A.. 0.3ppg

Mariner:
Team.........Poss.....Venue..Result
Average .....38.5.... 3H,6A.. 1.4 ppg

So...it's not whether you have the ball or not, it's what you do with it that counts.

I agree overall with what you are trying to say. In a game you don't need to have 60%+ possession to win but to say it is ok to continually have under 40% of the ball won't bring consistent results. Teams (especially good ones) will not flush away chances like New England had or Kocic won't make incredible saves like he did this weekend. Possession doesn't always equal goals but the less you have the ball the fewer chances you do get.

It is a fair strategy in one off games however, to go into every game saying we can win while having so little it just won't work long term.

[ag futbol]

Yes there is a lot of middle ground. TFC will never play like Spain or Barcelona, but why can't Toronto play a similar to Swansea? They proved all you need is good coaching and players who can work hard without the ball and have confidence with the ball at their feet.

I don't disagree with that.

Unfortunately, we're a little gun shy right now. A lot of blame is being put on tactics, but really the biggest problem was that the guy in charge of implementing those tactics was not right for the job and whoever identified the players to perform in the system was also awful.

[Whoop]

I agree overall with what you are trying to say. In a game you don't need to have 60%+ possession to win but to say it is ok to continually have under 40% of the ball won't bring consistent results. Teams (especially good ones) will not flush away chances like New England had or Kocic won't make incredible saves like he did this weekend. Possession doesn't always equal goals but the less you have the ball the fewer chances you do get.

It is a fair strategy in one off games however, to go into every game saying we can win while having so little it just won't work long term.

This.

In a small sample - even a year is a small sample in terms of statistics - sure it can work, but over the long term it doesn't.

[Huyton]

Agreed completely. Everybody knows that I like Mariner. Everybody also knows that I don't complain about Anselmi! BUT......IF (and that's the question...IF?) the academy is overhauled and De Klerk and Rongen are replaced, and the academy start training on ONLY a direct style of football, I will complain and point fingers at Anselmi as much as anybody else. BUT...until that time, and the academy are still playing the system and learning 4-3-3, I think the future is still bright.

Some people on the forum are "assuming" that De Klerk/Rongen/the system WILL all be replaced eventually. But that's an assumption on their behalf right now.

If Mariner can continue to get short term results with the first team, and De Klerk and Rongen can still train the kids on the system, then there is no reason we can't have short AND long term success. I'm not going to "assume" that the long term vision will be changing, as it hasn't so far....

Indeed.

Mariner has shown an ability to get more out of the players at his disposal than Winter managed. Given better players, I expect Mariner to deliver better results. If he does not, then he should suffer the exact same fate as every other coach who does not deliver.

[Stouffville_RPB]

Hopefully not.
But then the logical question will be:
Why did we go with Mariner at all?
So that supporters could feel good about grinding out some results for half a season?
Results that will serve nothing but convince some people not to give up their season tickets.
Why couldn't they just say:
"we've moved on from Aron Winter but have brought in _______ to get results while continuing the vision of playing attractive, possession based football"
Why was the reaction so harsh?
How does this club think that appointing Mariner and promoting Brennan to a first team coach makes sense and falls in line with what they told us a year and a half ago?
And why are we buying it?
Because of a terrible win against NE? Lol
I can't hang my hat on that. Sorry...I just can't.

It's off topic but...

That is exactly what they are doing. Fact is voodoo that you are in the minority. In the end wins (especially in the 2nd half of seasons) will get people feeling good and renewing their seats. That's the bottom line. Mariner's style fits that perfectly being able to get some results for a while and bring some hope.

They have 100% ditched the style and tactics that they were selling for the last 18 months. Fact is FO doesn't have the ability to think (and stick) to a long term goal. There is no vision other than to see 6 months down the road. That is why the shift was a complete 180.

[Greatest Ripoff]

I but really the biggest problem was that the guy in charge of implementing those tactics was not right for the job and whoever identified the players to perform in the system was also awful.

This is 100% bang on. The teams needs someone who can properly coach and identify and scout players. It doesn't matter what system the team plays and I don't think Toronto has ever had this.

[Greatest Ripoff]

Indeed.

Mariner has shown an ability to get more out of the players at his disposal than Winter managed. Given better players, I expect Mariner to deliver better results. If he does not, then he should suffer the exact same fate as every other coach who does not deliver.

But if Mariner is able to show mid table results what good does that do for the future of the team and academy?

[v00d00daddy]

It was definitely a thrown-together plan. The decision was made to change coaches to try and grind out some wins. You can't go 0-34, no matter what your future plans may be or what you're building towards. Winter was offered another job and chose not to take it. There was certainly not going to be any more money spent on yet another coach (Anselmi admitted he needed board approval to remove Winter so he certainly need board approval to sign another contract and there was no way he was getting that).

So, a year and half a go they told us something we wanted to hear - it was quite out of character with everything else they'd done before that but suddenly we decided this time it was the truth. Well, we spent a few season "just happy to have a team," and not very worried about the fact that they'd never bothered to put together a proper front office and infrastructure so I guess they figured they could keep telling us whatever we wanted to hear and we'd never look behind the curtain.

It's possible the new ownership will make big changes, but more likely Paul Mariner will get kicked upstairs (someone has to be the 'soccer guy' between MLSE and TFC) and as the US and academy produces enough players to allow the team to change style a new, younger coach will be brought in to do it.

This really has nothing to do with a few wins under Mariner, it has to do with TFC finally becoming an MLS team. I like your posts, you're an interesting guy, but this league clearly isn't for you - yet. Maybe you should take a break and come back in a few years when the league is better. If it is better. The one weakness in this whole plan is that US soccer is going to get better. Let's hope it does.

I fear you might be right about this team not being for me. I'd hoped to see the team build towards something worthwhile. Something impressive, that would serve as a blueprint for football in this city as a whole. A team that would inspire younger players to want to be a part of.

Instead, they've gone back to playing a style that I played in, and against, whether it was Erin Mills or Pickering. It's disheartening.

Problem is....IF I go, I probably won't be back.

The team has not done enough for me or people who share my viewpoint. They pander to the same people that have mucked up football in this country for as long as I've been around. It's embarrassing.

At the end of the day I don't care if we're playing a flat 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 or any other formation. What sells me or pushes me away is defending by hoofing it to nobody, long throw ins on every opportunity, midfield players being totally bypassed and worst of all.....bad players being put on pedestals because they get "stuck in", despite the fact said player uses one leg as a kick stand and couldn't make an accurate 10 yard pass to save his life.

The wrong people are at the helm and the shit is flowing downhill...all the way down to the supporters....some of whom I think are as lost, and stuck in the past as the FO and coach.

[denime]

Do you know what I find ironic?

Mariner is employing the same tactics that so many MLS clubs used to burn us on many occassions while Winter was at the helm. Like it or not, compact, direct, counter attacking football will earn results in this league more often than not.

The league could very well evolve over the next decade and TFC will have to adapt along with many other clubs in order to be successful. As long as the emphasis on the current philosophy being implemented throughout the ranks of the Academy does not wane, TFC should be in good shape moving forward once our select Academy prospects are ready to graduate to the first team.

In the interim, Mariner's mandate is to achieve results in the short term utilizing a tactical approach that is condusive to the collective skillset of his roster, and so far, he is doing a damn fine job.

Mariner is not interim coach,he got 3 years contact extension in April/May,and what we see is not short term fix,he is doing total overhaul as far roster and tactic/formation goes.

[denime]

In all likelihood, by the time these kids are ready to be promoted to the first team, Paul Mariner will no longer be on the sidelines.

Let's hope these kids will be promoted this November to the first team.

[T-boy]

But if Mariner is able to show mid table results what good does that do for the future of the team and academy?

But how are we going to judge Mariner by the end of the season? It won't be down to JUST results. We need to see that the squad/players are moving in the right direction. He needs to be gaining momentum through the rest of the season. If he just stays like he is now (winning home games by a goal, and scraping results/draws on the road) then it won't be an improvement. TFC need to start winning games much more comfortably. We need to start winning games like we won in Montreal, but more consistently. I would keep Mariner after this season if we are pretty much unbeaten at home for the rest of the year, and get at least a draw/win in 50% of our away games. That would be on the road to a good turn around from the start of the season, IMO.

[T-boy]

This is the rub.

If Mariner promotes these players, he essentially makes himself obsolete. While some of us theorize that the Academy playing one way and the first team playing another will somehow magically result in a smooth transition to the first team these miss some major points.

1) The more players and coaches he brings in that can nurture the Klinsmann model, the less important he becomes
2) The players he needs to bring in to support his system are not the same ones that can excel under the Klinsmann model.
3) Beach Red makes a great point, attracting players here will be a challenge. Plata already left because he felt he couldn't develop under Mariner. If you are a US player, with USMNT aspirations, and the USMNT is playing 4-3-3, are you going to want to come here and wait for the transition to 4-3-3? If the transition is on again, are you going to want to lose again?
4) Let's assume that they decide in 2013 to play 4-3-3, are we purging the roster? Players that can play Mariner's system are on multi-year deals. A player like Dunfield is on the roster until his contract expires or he is waived. Either way, the flexibility to overhaul a roster over night is severely limited

For those reasons and many others, Academies and First Teams are learning the same system, at the same time. It's sort of being half-way pregnant. You are either on board or not. There really is no seamless middle ground

TFC aren't going to be able to promote enough players from the academy in ONE season to move straight to 4-3-3. It needs to be a gradual turn around, not an instant one. And, if academy players moved to the first team and played 4-4-2 for a season, if wouldn't harm them at all. They wouldn't "forget" overnight how to play 4-3-3 and the system. If we can promote 1 or 2 players from the academy per season, we are looking at fully integrating the academy and its system into the first team in around 5 or 6 season's. It's a long term vision, and won't happen overnight.

[maxpower]

I have a desperately hard time with some people here who think that counter-attacking football only works on one off games. Chelsea were so unbelievably defensive during Mourinho's 3.5 years, yet, he won two championship and a few FA cups if i can recall correctly.

[Beach_Red]

I fear you might be right about this team not being for me. I'd hoped to see the team build towards something worthwhile. Something impressive, that would serve as a blueprint for football in this city as a whole. A team that would inspire younger players to want to be a part of.

Well, I wouldn't worry about it too much, kids here still want to be part of the hockey team .

[T-boy]

I have a desperately hard time with some people here who think that counter-attacking football only works on one off games. Chelsea were so unbelievably defensive during Mourinho's 3.5 years, yet, he won two championship and a few FA cups if i can recall correctly.

This is true actually. Mind you, I always used to watch any OTHER game than a Chelsea EPL game under Maurinho! You just KNEW that if they scored 1 or 2 goals, that would be it, shut down the opponent, and game over. It wasn't ever the prettiest thing to watch, but VERY effective! Mourinho got enough plaudits to get the (second?) biggest club coaching position in soccer from his Chelsea days! So, he must have dome something right!

[Greatest Ripoff]

TFC aren't going to be able to promote enough players from the academy in ONE season to move straight to 4-3-3. It needs to be a gradual turn around, not an instant one. And, if academy players moved to the first team and played 4-4-2 for a season, if wouldn't harm them at all. They wouldn't "forget" overnight how to play 4-3-3 and the system. If we can promote 1 or 2 players from the academy per season, we are looking at fully integrating the academy and its system into the first team in around 5 or 6 season's. It's a long term vision, and won't happen overnight.

Ok, if Toronto were to sign Morris and Camargo where would they be played? If they were played out of position, how would that effect their development as a footballer? Is it not best to put young players in a situation where they are able to use the skills that have be taught and continue to develop. Would it not be a step back to put Camargo out wide on a flat midfield 4? And in the current set up there is no position for Morris to play.

And speaking of Mourinho's Chelsea, you are talking about a team with Drogba, Lampard, Robben, Makelele, Terry, Carvalho ect. Not exactly TFC.

"Mourinho played a 4-3-3 system that worked so well because most English teams were still fixated on playing 4-4-2, which Chelsea’s system worked brilliantly against."

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/01/...elsea-2004-06/

[Huyton]

But if Mariner is able to show mid table results what good does that do for the future of the team and academy?

I expect the Academy to deliver better players. That is Rongens and DeKlerks resposibility. They still have their jobs, and they still have their mandate.

Given better players, if Mariner can't get the best out of them, then he should be fired. And he will be. He will be replaced by someone who's mandate will be to get more out of the team.

[Greatest Ripoff]

I expect the Academy to deliver better players. That is Rongens and DeKlerks resposibility. They still have their jobs, and they still have their mandate.

Given better players, if Mariner can't get the best out of them, then he should be fired. And he will be. He will be replaced by someone who's mandate will be to get more out of the team.

How are the academy players going to help the team if they are played out of position and not used to their full potential?

[T-boy]

Ok, if Toronto were to sign Morris and Camargo where would they be played? If they were played out of position, how would that effect their development as a footballer? Is it not best to put young players in a situation where they are able to use the skills that have be taught and continue to develop. Would it not be a step back to put Camargo out wide on a flat midfield 4? And in the current set up there is no position for Morris to play.

And speaking of Mourinho's Chelsea, you are talking about a team with Drogba, Lampard, Robben, Makelele, Terry, Carvalho ect. Not exactly TFC.

"Mourinho played a 4-3-3 system that worked so well because most English teams were still fixated on playing 4-4-2, which Chelsea’s system worked brilliantly against."

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/01/...elsea-2004-06/

Morris and Camargo aren't very good players if they can ONLY fit into one system their whole career! I'm sure, if they are quality, they could adapt to other systems until the first team is populated with players who can play the 4-3-3 system.

[T-boy]

I expect the Academy to deliver better players. That is Rongens and DeKlerks resposibility. They still have their jobs, and they still have their mandate.

Given better players, if Mariner can't get the best out of them, then he should be fired. And he will be. He will be replaced by someone who's mandate will be to get more out of the team.

There are far too many people saying "he will be" this and "that WILL happen". We don't know.....we can't make assumptions about the future right now.

[jazzy]

Yes there is a lot of middle ground. TFC will never play like Spain or Barcelona, but why can't Toronto play a similar to Swansea? They proved all you need is good coaching and players who can work hard without the ball and have confidence with the ball at their feet.

swansea really controlled Arsenal early in the season...(at their own game but must say they have a huge overall team commitment great coach but even so their players COULD handle that style unlike TO....and Winter simply didn't have the player back-up from mgr

[ag futbol]

I just want to see that the team can be patient with prospects and bring them through to the first team. Not everyone is going to win a position... Our team now is proof of that, most of the prospects we signed are probably going to be released without ever making an impact.

I think we've all watched enough football to know there are teams out there that won't give young players a chance. Look at Preki, the guy was perfectly ready to throw Nicholas Lindsay in the garbage before he was fired. After Dasovic gave him a few games, it was clear he was probably the best wide player we had. And that's overly dramatic example, but it just goes to show you some old-school coaches in this league can hardly see a foot in front of their face when making player selection choices.

[denime]

TFC aren't going to be able to promote enough players from the academy in ONE season to move straight to 4-3-3. It needs to be a gradual turn around, not an instant one. And, if academy players moved to the first team and played 4-4-2 for a season, if wouldn't harm them at all. They wouldn't "forget" overnight how to play 4-3-3 and the system. If we can promote 1 or 2 players from the academy per season, we are looking at fully integrating the academy and its system into the first team in around 5 or 6 season's. It's a long term vision, and won't happen overnight.

It does not work that way,you simply can not play 442 with 1st team and expect academy kids to be called up to play 442 after playing their whole development life in 433,there is 0 logic behind that,there is huge difference between responsibilities on each position.Those two systems a totally different and can't be mixed and match just like that,while academy kids are learning possession,1st team is playing "direct/Long Ball,you aether play it throughout your entire club or not,period.The system is based upon each player knowing the inns and out of his position,and when called up,the kid is suppose to play his position and not to learn and adapt to some other system.

Bayern FC :"The Bayern has restructured its Youth Division in 1995 and the junior team founded. In addition to the second team, which plays in the Regionalliga Süd in 2011/12, eleven youth teams, which are served by a total of 26 trainers belong to the junior team. From the D junior, the junior team plays a single game system that simplified can be described as 4-4-2."

http://www.fcbayern.telekom.de/de/ma...info/index.php

Makes me wonder why Bayern does not teach their kids 433 when 1st team traditionally plays 442,why is TFC FO smarter than any other club around the globe?
Why do you think TFC 3 stooges know more about this game than Franz Feckenbauer,Rummenigge, Karl-Heinz and Uli Hoenes who set their academy in 1995,or Rinus Michels and Johan Cruijf from Ajax FC?

Ajax FC is partly dependant on players from its own youth academy. The youth teams are trained in exactly the same way as the first team en these boys are therefore already accustomed to Ajax’s style of play.
Central within the club is the style of play (4-3-3), training, behaviour and house rules. Ajax strives to keep the way of playing football recognisable; attractive, offensive-minded, creative, fast, fair and preferably far away from the own goal on the opponents’ half.

This is true actually. Mind you, I always used to watch any OTHER game than a Chelsea EPL game under Maurinho! You just KNEW that if they scored 1 or 2 goals, that would be it, shut down the opponent, and game over. It wasn't ever the prettiest thing to watch, but VERY effective! Mourinho got enough plaudits to get the (second?) biggest club coaching position in soccer from his Chelsea days! So, he must have dome something right!

LOL,Mourinho played 4-3-3 with Chelsea.

Morris and Camargo aren't very good players if they can ONLY fit into one system their whole career! I'm sure, if they are quality, they could adapt to other systems until the first team is populated with players who can play the 4-3-3 system.

They are now better players than Dunefield was or will ever be,question is can they and play dumbed down version of 442 that Mariner is implementing,because one thing is for sure Mariner can not coach 433,not now not in the future,so why have him as head coach in the first place?


This is not for or against Mariner this is about morons running this club since 2007 .