Originally Posted by
BHTC Mike
Sorry, but on that we'll just have to agree to disagree. I would never characterize our performances in the Chivas and Columbus games as dominating. To me, those games looked like not so good (but not horrible) road teams managing a game, being happy to play on the counter, and asking us to come and break them down; especially after they took the lead. We couldn't and, until we resorted to a lot of direct longball, didn't create many legit scoring opportunities ourselves.
Again, maybe if we converted a few more of those chances AND snuck a winner in Salt Lake before their 3rd goal our record would have been 1W-2D-6L for six points. Improvement? I'm being as generous as I can and that's still what Mariner's managed to achieve in 6 games; four on the road. To some extext Mariner's record is a fluke and likely doesn't simply reflect his coaching: TFC had slightly turned a corner already in May, Koevermans is finishing a greater percentage of his chances, and 6 games is a statisical blip full of randomness. But the point I keep making, that TFC is putting themselves in a position to win league games, is really night and day stuff.
Enjoy it! Enjoy the fact that we're going into a road game wondering whether they can pull off a win that would have seemed unlikely two months ago rather than asking how many goals they'll lose by!
Listen, I want to see TFC play beautiful football too. But I think you need to walk before you run and that being competitive in the league while you work your way towards that is essential. Further, this is a tough league to stay on top in. The times where we assemble enough good players, all with the necessary technical SUPERIORITY (not just ability), to play pretty football and win? Those will be rare and special runs and should be celebrated. The times where we can't? Just do what you have to to stay competitive. This is a hard league to win consistently in but, logically, it should also be a hard one to lose consistently in! 6 wins out of 44? That's horrorshow stuff and if Mariner gets us to middle of the pack respectability - like Winter was getting close to in the second half of 2011 - he'll deserve his kick at the can next year.
What Winter doesn't get enought credit for were the two wins over Tauro. They weren't pretty victories in either case but the Panamians were a better team than they were given credit for and, IIRC, we were the only team to take 6 points off them. That, as much as the Pumas draw and win in Dallas, is what allowed us the chance to get through the group.
Of course, Winter might not get the credit for that he deserves but Preki gets next to no credit for ANY of his cup accomplishments. He had an equally good record in the Canadian Championship - our first coach to really cruise that - along with BEATING a Mexican team and eliminating a good Central American team over two legs in famously hostile conditions away. Yes, the loss to Aribe Unido (under some of the most dubious refereeing we've ever endured) sours his accomplishments but, when he was fired, we were in as good a position to advance as Winter was in our 2011 group after two games. We likely wouldn't have because late-2010 RSL were a far better team than late-2001 FCD but it's not like cup success saved him. Hell, compared to Winter he was actually managing to do all that while TFC stayed in touching distance of the playoffs that year too!
The problem is that too much of the message board analysis of TFC is based on ideology rather than evidence. Preki's team played "boring MLS hoofball" - even though I'll still assert that the win over Cruz Azul was the best I've ever seen us play - so results didn't matter. Winter's team played "attractive possession football" and thus could be excused for being out of the playoff hunt by early summer (or earlier) in two consecutive seasons. Both of them had success in cups. Both of them brought through a couple of different Canadian youngsters developed by the club. But one got fired before his first season was over (for a whole lot of reasons) while the other got a massive DP budget and an extra offseason to make the team worse.
The treatment of the two of them was completely incongruent and now some people are setting Mariner up for Preki-style revolt even though most of the media close to the team, including posters on this forum, are going to bat for him. Some of if it, it must be said, laced with out-of-date cultural stereotypes about British football that make no reference to Paul Mariner's actual playing experience in the UK or time as an assistant in MLS. It's offensive, stupid, and truly mindboggling that some people seem determined to cheerlead the same mistakes TFC has made in the past. You've said it yourself in a different context: this club consistently undervalues MLS experience, overvalues foreign pedigree, and underestimates the difficulties of being successful in an American league.
And some people can't even enjoy a five game league unbeaten streak, for the first time since 2010, in the process!
And the results are there! Not great results, but a hell of a lot better than we were used to!
Here's our league form guide under Winter all time:
L-W-T-T-T-L-T-L-W-L-T-T-L-T-T-T-L-L-W-L-L-L-L-T-T-W-L-T-W-W-L-T-T-T-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-L-W
(Bolded parts are unbeaten streaks of three games or longer.)
Here's our league form under Mariner so far:
L-D-D-W-D-D
In Mariner's first six games he's done something Aron Winter NEVER DID in 44 games! Fluke? Yes, but Winter had 44 games to fluke the same results!
And before you get there: yes, Winter did start with a nearly identical record. (More of those games were at home but that's being pedantic.) Yes, he did finish the year more respectably. But the vast, vast majority were not calling for his head at any point until we start poorly again this year! That was after 3-0 and 6-2 HOME losses. I was skeptical last year but willing to give him a chance. Even after the 0-0-5 league start I started a thread suggesting he should be evaluated over the next five league games. He went 1-0-4 with the only win coming on a last minute goal after two more home losses! One of them amongst the most miserable home performances TFC has suffered in years.
Look, wanting Tom Anselmi held accountable for the systemic dysfunctions in TFC is reasonable. Pitching Mariner in with that and throwing the baby out with the bath water isn't! Mariner might - MIGHT! - be an appropriate guy to contribute to finally getting this club going the right direction. We probably won't have much of an idea until after the summer when he's had more of chance to influence the roster and start building the team he wants. That's the chance Aron Winter was afforded THREE TIMES(!) before the axe fell and giving Mariner enough rope to get one transfer window is hardly asking for the moon. If he ever loses 9 games in a row or only wins 6 out of 44 league games watch how my opinion on him changes! Until then:
Forza Mariner!
Forza 4-4-2! (Or whatever formation keeps us competitive and gets results!)
Forza TFC!
newMARINERorder4life!
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