Today's News,Friday,Jul.06

[Redcoe15]

-The question regarding Cochrane's response to the Plata controversy is valid. Cochrane should have been fired along with MoJo and Preki.

-We don't know if there was internal disagreement regarding Nesta, it's all speculation at this point. Even if there was, it's not uncommon to have differing opinions on player recruitment, even within the most astute professional sports management teams.

-This issue has been discussed ad nauseum. With the pending sale of MLSE and a moratorium on long term hiring decisions in place for obvious reasons, the most qualified replacement was promoted internally to try and salvage the season. Subsequently, Paul Mariner has adapted a modified approach that he felt was more condusive to success in MLS in the short term. So far, the team has responded well to his tactical adjustments and boisterous nature.

-I can understand the concern regarding Cochrane, but to dismantle the entire front office ten games into the season is nothing short of idiotic. A semblence of stability was required for the duration of the season, not to mention that once again, permanent replacements could obviously have not been hired at this point with the pending transfer of ownership. Bell/Rogers/Tanenbaum will obviously want to make their own determination regarding the long term direction of the club if Mariner falters.

-Once again, a question that should be directed at the new ownership consortium once the sale of MLSE is official, although I agree that the ticket pricing issue is a key factor moving forward.

-The same question could be asked of any MLS club that has aging stars in their lineup. Most DPs in the league are in the twilight of their career, and logic would dictate that plan B would be to sign suitable replacements as DPs when the time comes.

-Irrelevant. Any team in the league would obviously endure hardship without their two best players in the lineup.

-Tom Anselmi has essentially acknowledged to the public that he is not qualified for his current position when he initially reached out to the league and hired Mo Johnston, and once again, when he hired a high profile consultant to determine the identity and trajectory of the franchise moving forward. It's no secret that he is a MLSE puppet that was assigned as the CEO of TFC. The issue will hopefully be resolved once the new ownership group is in place.

And this is problably how it will shake down:

Tom Anselmi will be promoted to president of ML$E, taking over from Richard Peddie, problably for all the "great work" he's done at making Toronto FC profitable - meaning nothing. He will be replaced by a mini-me version of himself who's main job it will be to fleece fans out of more money, while the team continues to be a laughing stock of the league and sports fans in Southern Ontario.

And the walls come a tumblin' down, caused by this:

[narduch]

And this is problably how it will shake down:

Tom Anselmi will be promoted to president of ML$E, taking over from Richard Peddie, problably for all the "great work" he's done at making Toronto FC profitable - meaning nothing. He will be replaced by a mini-me version of himself who's main job it will be to fleece fans out of more money, while the team continues to be a laughing stock of the league and sports fans in Southern Ontario.

And the walls come a tumblin' down, caused by this:

They will probably just promote Paul Beirne to TFC President.

[Richard]

They will probably just promote Paul Beirne to TFC President.

LMAO

[TOBOR !]

Typically, I would agree, but 7 wins in 44 games? I hardly think that's jumping the gun by anyone's standards. Personally, I don't think a manager would have lasted that long in any other organization.

Well, this is where we part ways. The club was undergoing a philosophical overhaul. Such things take longer than the allotted time.

[T-boy]

]


And to be ultra clear for you, in no way am I sticking up for/didn't think Winter should fired. I think Mariner should have been fired as well.

Please tell me why Mariner should have come out from all of this and got a promotion?

Because WE (the fans) don't know how much control Winter and/or Mariner actually had in the dealings with transfers. Some of you are "assuming" that Mariner was the one pulling all the strings as far as transfers were concerned. But I don't think that was the case, I think Winter had the final say and was orchestrating things, NOT Mariner. In the end of the day, the head coach is the HEAD coach - not a director. So, the overall blame of the team has to fall on Winter, not Mariner. If Winter wanted "only a left footed centre back", then Mariner is limited in the players he can search for. If he then finds Iro but suggests that "he might not suit the system, but he IS left footed and the things you asked for". Then Winter finally decides if he signs the guy, NOT Mariner. So, Mariner isn't fired, but Winter should be.

Secondly, people excel in different roles in their companies. Myself, I work in the hospitailty industry and work for a hotel. I started a housekeeper(!) but I was fucking hopeless at it and couldn't make a tidy bed if it killed me! But I must have done something right, as I got promoted, and not, eventually, I'm head of the company. But man, I was terrible at my first job at the company. BUT, that doesn't mean I'm terrible as head of the company now! I think I'm doing a good job, and I've doubled revenue in the last 4 years (while most hotels are doing pretty badly due to the economy!). So.....if you look at it that way - Mariner deserves a shot at manager and there was no reason to promote him to that roll and see how he does!

[T-boy]

Well, this is where we part ways. The club was undergoing a philosophical overhaul. Such things take longer than the allotted time.

If you are looking at any other industry other than pro sports, I would agree with you. But in pro sports, a season and a half is a massive amount of time. And 44 games is an insanely massive amount of time for a head coach of a football team! And then on top of that, the results were getting worse in the second season, instead of better! That's far too long for a football team to be "turning things around" IMO.

[narduch]

Well, this is where we part ways. The club was undergoing a philosophical overhaul. Such things take longer than the allotted time.

I'm not a fan of Mariner, I think the jury is still out on him, but Winter's time was over.

[denime]

I'm not a fan of Mariner, I think the jury is still out on him, but Winter's time was over.

Agree, Winter time was over,but now is time for a coach who will carry on a philosophical overhaul and not a coach who will dump whatever was done in last 18 months with him as Winter's "right Hand".
This is TFC FO fuck up and now we are stuck with it,like it or not.

[KRO]

Agree, Winter time was over,but now is time for a coach who will carry on a philosophical overhaul and not a coach who will dump whatever was done in last 18 months with him as Winter's "right Hand".
This is TFC FO fuck up and now we are stuck with it,like it or not.

Why wouldn't you dump whatever was done in the last 18 months? It was a disaster. Winter was in charge of the team and they didn't believe in him. You could see it on the field. They're playing for Mariner and that's all that matters.

[T-boy]

Agree, Winter time was over,but now is time for a coach who will carry on a philosophical overhaul and not a coach who will dump whatever was done in last 18 months with him as Winter's "right Hand".
This is TFC FO fuck up and now we are stuck with it,like it or not.

It just wasn't working for the FIRST TEAM. The reserves and the academy are still learning the Winter system. The FO has NOT thrown it all away over night, as far as I can see. But, Mariner HAD to start getting results in the short term for the first team, or we would all be VERY pissed off at creating a league record for the most defeats/goals conceded/lowest goals scored...etc etc. In the short term, changing the strategy for the first team, was a very wise idea by Mariner, IMO. If you wanted to keep playing the same way as before, and creating league record lows, that's fine. But I, for one, wasn't satisfied with that at all. I still think the long term goal should be to create tachtically superior players through the academy, and I'm sure Mariner also agree's with that. The way the league and cap space is managed, makes it essential to have a youth system that produces quality players. Mariner, I'm sure, realises the potential of producing great youth players that play technical systems that can take the club forward. But, in the meantime, those players aren't in the first team, and we have people like Dunfield, Emory, Ekcersley, RJ, and most of the reserve team, who just can't cope with a technically skills game! Until the point where the academy players are coming through to the first team, Mariner has little choice but to "dumb down the game".

[denime]

It just wasn't working for the FIRST TEAM. The reserves and the academy are still learning the Winter system. The FO has NOT thrown it all away over night, as far as I can see. But, Mariner HAD to start getting results in the short term for the first team, or we would all be VERY pissed off at creating a league record for the most defeats/goals conceded/lowest goals scored...etc etc. In the short term, changing the strategy for the first team, was a very wise idea by Mariner, IMO. If you wanted to keep playing the same way as before, and creating league record lows, that's fine. But I, for one, wasn't satisfied with that at all. I still think the long term goal should be to create tachtically superior players through the academy, and I'm sure Mariner also agree's with that. The way the league and cap space is managed, makes it essential to have a youth system that produces quality players. Mariner, I'm sure, realises the potential of producing great youth players that play technical systems that can take the club forward. But, in the meantime, those players aren't in the first team, and we have people like Dunfield, Emory, Ekcersley, RJ, and most of the reserve team, who just can't cope with a technically skills game! Until the point where the academy players are coming through to the first team, Mariner has little choice but to "dumb down the game".

It is sad when you have to dumb down the game and still pay the players a nice chunk of money,what bugs me,are comments on this board that system that Winter was implementing is to complicated for our "professionals" and you see a 10 years old American kids playing possession game in 343 formation without any problems.
Watch a clinical display of possession in California U11 kids and tell me is it really so complicated that our professionals can not pick it up,I mean pass and move is basic skill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DThjb_XyyoU&feature=player_embedded

We live in "the moment" and we want it now,while other countries and their clubs take their time to get the"vision" working, we rebuild every year and try to discover worm water all over again and again.this season was fucked before Mariner took over,and to think that he will get us somewhere this or next year is just wishful thinking,we will be and stay mediocre at best.

If we are going to wait until our 1st team has enough academy player in the starting 11 in order to play possession game,you and I will have to watch this dumb down style for another 5-8 years at least.

[ManUtd4ever]

It is sad when you have to dumb down the game and still pay the players a nice chunk of money,what bugs me,are comments on this board that system that Winter was implementing is to complicated for our "professionals" and you see a 10 years old American kids playing possession game in 343 formation without any problems.
Watch a clinical display of possession in California U11 kids and tell me is it really so complicated that our professionals can not pick it up,I mean pass and move is basic skill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DThjb_XyyoU&feature=player_embedded

We live in "the moment" and we want it now,while other countries and their clubs take their time to get the"vision" working, we rebuild every year and try to discover worm water all over again and again.this season was fucked before Mariner took over,and to think that he will get us somewhere this or next year is just wishful thinking,we will be and stay mediocre at best.

If we are going to wait until our 1st team has enough academy player in the starting 11 in order to play possession game,you and I will have to watch this dumb down style for another 5-8 years at least.

That's true, but if we can become a playoff club in the interim by playing a more conventional, direct, MLS style of football, isn't that better for us as supporters than having to endure season after season of abject failure while a grand vision is implemented?

Besides, the fact of the matter is that Winter was hired to implement a vision AND produce tangible results within a reasonable timeframe, which is why he was signed to a 3 year contract as opposed to a 5-10 year contract. If his horrendous record in league play had continued for another year and a half, I'm afraid that would have done far more damage to the organization than modifying the tactical approach of the first team.

[ManUtd4ever]

It doesn't have to be. Mariner's 4-4-2 is boot and run, though. It's very traditional English football, and it's no co-incidence that Mariner's greatest defenders on this board happen to be English.

I missed this post yesterday.

-TFC has demonstrated that they can play long stretches of possession football under Mariner, as was evident in the latter stages of the match against Dallas.

-I can't speak for everyone else who has been objective in their analysis of Mariner, but my views have nothing to do with my ethnic background. I am a second generation Canadian, and my parents are both of Mediterranean descent.

I think it's highly presumptuous on your part to assume that people will form their opinions based on their ethnicity. I'm sure there are also plenty of people on this forum of English descent who have been just as critical of Mariner as you.

[denime]

That's true, but if we can become a playoff club in the interim by playing a more conventional, direct, MLS style of football, isn't that better for us as supporters than having to endure season after season of abject failure while a grand vision is implemented?

Besides, the fact of the matter is that Winter was hired to implement a vision AND produce tangible results within a reasonable timeframe, which is why he was signed to a 3 year contract as opposed to a 5-10 year contract. If his horrendous record in league play had continued for another year and a half, I'm afraid that would have done far more damage to the organization than modifying the tactical approach of the first team.

That is one BIG IF my friend,and vision was left behind on the day when they hired Mariner.

[v00d00daddy]

That's true, but if we can become a playoff club in the interim by playing a more conventional, direct, MLS style of football, isn't that better for us as supporters than having to endure season after season of abject failure while a grand vision is implemented?

FIrstly...I don't know if the "hoof ball" we've been playing is an MLS style of football. There are several teams that don't do this anymore.

Secondly, for me it's all about implementing the grand vision because the ceiling (if it's done properly) is a championship. I don't think the style we're playing now has an end result of championship in it. I just don't think playing hoof ball is going to work, over the long haul, against the quality teams in this league. So what's the point?

Just to shut up some supporters? Or is it because the FO is afraid that people will stop coming if they continue with the original philosophy?

Who knows? But I know I'm going to stop going to games if we continue to play the style that Mariner has implemented.

Besides, the fact of the matter is that Winter was hired to implement a vision AND produce tangible results within a reasonable timeframe, which is why he was signed to a 3 year contract as opposed to a 5-10 year contract. If his horrendous record in league play had continued for another year and a half, I'm afraid that would have done far more damage to the organization than modifying the tactical approach of the first team.

What kind of damage? People not renewing seasons tickets?

I had no problem with him being fired. A change was obviously needed. I just can't stand the fact that they PROMOTED a guy from within and, even worse, a guy that is the antithesis of what the team wanted to implement.

Why Mariner was even associated to this club in the first place is beyond me.

And his style (or lack thereof) is going to be the reason that I leave. And I suspect I won't be alone.

And those that stay will be left revelling in mid table mediocrity at best and wondering why TFC can't compete with the leagues best teams.

It's kinda like the England mens national team. They've always been a decent to good side but could never seem to get over the hump. Now...they're even further behind the curve and are realizing that they just don't produce enough skilled players to compete with the biggest nations.

So what's left to do?

Champion the efforts of the lads and assure people there's nothing to worry about? (Ala Hodgson)

or

Start to admit and identify that steps need to be taken to produce better players who can play a better style of play (Ala Rio Ferdinand)

Sounds just like TFC.

Except that TFC made the decision to fix things for the long term....but......to appease people that can't or won't see the forrest for the trees.... they've shit their pants in fear and brought back a mentality that may yield moderate results, but will never help the reach the summit of the mountain.

And that, I believe, is far worse than enduring the growing pains of implementing a system and mentality that will allow them to compete with the best teams in the league and maybe one day, be the best.

Season Seat renewals be damned. LOL

[ManUtd4ever]

That is one BIG IF my friend,and vision was left behind on the day when they hired Mariner.

As of now, we can't assume that. DeKlerk and Rongen still have significant roles within the organization, and the Academy teams are still playing the 4-3-3.

[ManUtd4ever]

FIrstly...I don't know if the "hoof ball" we've been playing is an MLS style of football. There are several teams that don't do this anymore.

Secondly, for me it's all about implementing the grand vision because the ceiling (if it's done properly) is a championship. I don't think the style we're playing now has an end result of championship in it. I just don't think playing hoof ball is going to work, over the long haul, against the quality teams in this league. So what's the point?

Just to shut up some supporters? Or is it because the FO is afraid that people will stop coming if they continue with the original philosophy?

Who knows? But I know I'm going to stop going to games if we continue to play the style that Mariner has implemented.



What kind of damage? People not renewing seasons tickets?

I had no problem with him being fired. A change was obviously needed. I just can't stand the fact that they PROMOTED a guy from within and, even worse, a guy that is the antithesis of what the team wanted to implement.

Why Mariner was even associated to this club in the first place is beyond me.

And his style (or lack thereof) is going to be the reason that I leave. And I suspect I won't be alone.

And those that stay will be left revelling in mid table mediocrity at best and wondering why TFC can't compete with the leagues best teams.

It's kinda like the England mens national team. They've always been a decent to good side but could never seem to get over the hump. Now...they're even further behind the curve and are realizing that they just don't produce enough skilled players to compete with the biggest nations.

So what's left to do?

Champion the efforts of the lads and assure people there's nothing to worry about? (Ala Hodgson)

or

Start to admit and identify that steps need to be taken to produce better players who can play a better style of play (Ala Rio Ferdinand)

Sounds just like TFC.

Except that TFC made the decision to fix things for the long term....but......to appease people that can't or won't see the forrest for the trees.... they've shit their pants in fear and brought back a mentality that may yield moderate results, but will never help the reach the summit of the mountain.

And that, I believe, is far worse than enduring the growing pains of implementing a system and mentality that will allow them to compete with the best teams in the league and maybe one day, be the best.

Season Seat renewals be damned. LOL

Why must we assume that it has to be one of two extremes?

I see the recent managerial change for what it is; an attempt to placate the long beleaguered supporters of the club with tangible success in the short term, because our results in league play under Winter were historically abysmal. We'll see if Mariner can deliver.

As for the long term vision, I don't see any evidence to suggest that it has been abandoned within the organization. Perhaps for the first team in the short term, but not throughout the ranks of the Academy.

If you are willing to abandon the club even if they achieve positive results in the immediate future because of a tactical adjustment within the first team, that's your prerogative. I think that after 6 years of failure, most supporters just want a club that can be competitive on a consistent basis and qualify for the playoffs some time this decade, LOL.

[v00d00daddy]

Why must we assume that it has to be one of two extremes?

I see the recent managerial change for what it is; an attempt to placate the long beleaguered supporters of the club with tangible success in the short term, because our results in league play under Winter were historically abysmal. We'll see if Mariner can deliver.

As for the long term vision, I don't see any evidence to suggest that it has been abandoned within the organization. Perhaps for the first team in the short term, but not throughout the ranks of the Academy.

If you are willing to abandon the club even if they achieve positive results in the immediate future because of a tactical adjustment within the first team, that's your prerogative. I think that after 6 years of failure, most supporters just want a club that can be competitive on a consistent basis and qualify for the playoffs some time this decade, LOL.

When the organisation starts making ON FIELD, short term, and (imo) short sighted decisions to appease the supporters all is lost for me.

Inmates running the asylum.

[denime]

When the organisation starts making ON FIELD, short term, and (imo) short sighted decisions to appease the supporters all is lost for me.

Inmates running the asylum.

True,it's all about this October ST renewal,next year is to far away for TFC FO to think about.

[ManUtd4ever]

When the organisation starts making ON FIELD, short term, and (imo) short sighted decisions to appease the supporters all is lost for me.

Inmates running the asylum.

At the end of the day, it's still a business that relies on selling tickets for a competitive on field product. If TFC had stayed the course with Winter and the futility continued for another 1-2 years, this franchise would be in serious trouble, much worse than it already is.

I see no reason why the philosophy can't be implemented gradually over the next few years once the Academy has produced enough tactically adept players to earn several starting positions within the first team. Due to the salary cap restrictions in MLS, it really is the most logical way to implement the vision without enduring years of ineptitude on the pitch.

[narduch]

Why Mariner was even associated to this club in the first place is beyond me.

The cynical side of me thinks it was a back up in case Winter failed. And that is exactly what happened.

As TFC fans, we are screwed though. The sale of MLSE needs to happen now. The continued delay in the change over could make this team bad for a few more years. Its sad.

[v00d00daddy]

At the end of the day, it's still a business that relies on selling tickets for a competitive on field product. If TFC had stayed the course with Winter and the futility continued for another 1-2 years, this franchise would be in serious trouble, much worse than it already is.

I see no reason why the philosophy can't be implemented gradually over the next few years once the Academy has produced enough tactically adept players to earn several starting positions within the first team. Due to the salary cap restrictions in MLS, it really is the most logical way to implement the vision without enduring years of ineptitude on the pitch.

They didn't have to stay the course with Winter.

But they should have stayed the course with the style of play.

With a new coach that could get more out of the players.

[ManUtd4ever]

They didn't have to stay the course with Winter.

But they should have stayed the course with the style of play.

With a new coach that could get more out of the players.

That may be a valid point, if you think the futility was solely the result of a personnel issue with management. I think it was fundamentally a systemic issue; a tactical philosophy that the players on the first team weren't able to execute effectively, even after the roster was overhauled. I believe that the current roster has more than enough talent by MLS standards to be a very competitive club in this league.

[Pookie]

As for the long term vision, I don't see any evidence to suggest that it has been abandoned within the organization. Perhaps for the first team in the short term, but not throughout the ranks of the Academy.

You and t-boy both touched on this issue and I have to ask, are you convinced that if Mariner wanted to flip the switch and play the 4-3-3 style that the Academy is playing, that he would be able to implement it?

If yes, I'd love to see some kind of objective rationale because I am having trouble seeing how as a player that never played it, as a coach that never coached it and as an executive hired to implement it but opted to push his own anti-4-3-3 agenda, that he would be even considered a short list candidate.

If it is true that he couldn't implement it, then we have a bit of a divide within the organization. The 4-3-3 can never be introduced as long as he is here. Which means either TR and BDK opt to leave and hoof ball reigns as Mariner fills the organization with his people or we have yet another set of growing pains as the 4-3-3 gets "re-implemented" with someone else.

[tfcocd]

You and t-boy both touched on this issue and I have to ask, are you convinced that if Mariner wanted to flip the switch and play the 4-3-3 style that the Academy is playing, that he would be able to implement it?

If yes, I'd love to see some kind of objective rationale because I am having trouble seeing how as a player that never played it, as a coach that never coached it and as an executive hired to implement it but opted to push his own anti-4-3-3 agenda, that he would be even considered a short list candidate.

If it is true that he couldn't implement it, then we have a bit of a divide within the organization. The 4-3-3 can never be introduced as long as he is here. Which means either TR and BDK opt to leave and hoof ball reigns as Mariner fills the organization with his people or we have yet another set of growing pains as the 4-3-3 gets "re-implemented" with someone else.

I really hope that after being part of an organization that for 18 months has dedicated itself to 4-3-3, so much so that it started 1-9, he is capable of running the lads out there in 4-3-3! Especially when it is still being taught and played throughout the organization.

Maybe it will take 5 years to get there? I hope not but I am not going to give up my tickets over it. I love watching professional soccer and going to the stadium. Looking through the other MLS sides, some of whom are very successful, there are many different formations and very few at 4-3-3. I see a lot of 4-4-2 and 4-5-1 variants (4-1-2-1-2, 4-2-3-1, etc) and not much else. The walk before we run sentiment seems apt. Let's find our way to being a successful MLS side and evolve into a great football club that is technically and tactically gifted without being a league laughing stock while pursuing it.