Are you saying that the English and the Dutch can't get along?!Originally Posted by Stouffville_RPB
Are you saying that the English and the Dutch can't get along?!
In my book that's a raw deal - bringing a man in to overhaul the club with the understanding that success won't come early - and then using that lack of success to justify firing him early.
I'll give you the other point, but they should still do a better job of managing their optics.
a ha ha heh he hoo.. ha
There's also no real indication or reason, right now, that Mariner couldn't play 4-3-3 eventually We have no real evidence to suggest that Mariner could NOT do this. It's congecture on some people's behalf. Unless some people have a DeLorian and have seen the future and knows what happens in the coming season(s)?!
Can you name another club/manager that has taken a season and a half to oversee change and got worse results in that time? In football, a season and a half is a lifetime! A decent manager can oversee change in much MUCH less time.
If I'm not mistaken, weren't Winter, DeKlerk, and Mariner all hired at the same time and signed to comparable 3 year contracts anyway?
I tried googling Paul Mariner's alleged contract extension and nothing came up.
Perhaps there is no grand conspiracy after all?
Typically, I would agree, but 7 wins in 44 games? I hardly think that's jumping the gun by anyone's standards. Personally, I don't think a manager would have lasted that long in any other organization.
Or perhaps Mariner got the same kind of super secret extension that Mo Johnston got.
I'm hoping the extension talk isn't true. Anselmi is an idiot if he gave him an extension already.
I wouldnt be surprised... Anselmi knows he is not going to last much longer so why not go out swinging? Does anyone above him know any better anyways?
If identicle, yes why change?
However Thomas Rongen wouldn't be identicle. He knows enough about this league to know how to be realistic... how to temper the ideals of Dutch football with the realities of the type of player we have available to us. Remember, he is deeply connected with the American youth set-up. Plus he's the only coach at TFC who is wearing an MLS Cup ring.
Or you could look at Steve Nicol (who is still available, BTW). His style is more eclectic, and the Revs didn't simply just hoof it down the field under his watch. He got to the MLS cup final, multiple times and is one of the most respected coaches in the league.
So TFC had available (1) An MLS Cup-winning coach, and (2) An MLS Cup finalist. Who did they pick? The guy with almost no first team coaching experience, Paul Mariner.
Last edited by Oldtimer; 07-06-2012 at 03:26 PM.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Can you name another club where the person involved in player acquisition has taken a season and a half to oversee change, got worse results in that time and then got promoted to coach?
There's nothing wrong with playing a long ball to a teammate in open space. It's a problem when you're playing longballs with no target and it's your only method of moving the ball. If the players don't have the skill to play short passes, they definitely don't have the ability to give a good long ball to an open teammate.
For the record, the Dutch system isn't anti longball, it's against creating kicking the ball aimlessly in the hopes that your forwards win the 50/50 balls. That Frei to Martina goal wasn't against the Dutch football philosophy. Frei saw that he had an open man at the front, so he gave him an excellent long ball. That's called vision, and it's very different from what most players are doing right now
How do you know Thomas Rongen wanted the job? I think it was mentioned somehwere he was not interested in the first team but academy for the near future.If identicle, yes why change?
However Thomas Rongen wouldn't be identicle. He knows enough about this league to know how to be realistic... how to temper the ideals of Dutch football with the realities of the type of player we have available to us. Remember, he is deeply connected with the American youth set-up. Plus he's the only coach at TFC who is wearing an MLS Cup ring.
Or you could look at Steve Nicol (who is still available, BTW). His style is more eclectic, and the Revs didn't simply just hoof it down the field under his watch. He got to the MLS cup final, multiple times and is one of the most respected coaches in the league.
So TFC had available (1) An MLS Cup-winning coach, and (2) An MLS Cup finalist. Who did they pick? The guy with almost no first team coaching experience, Paul Mariner.
May 3, 2012 Duane Rollins:
There is so much information coming forward right now, it is hard to shake loose what is real and what might be MLSE looking to trace their 'leak.' But if there has been one piece of information that has been consistent in the last 72 hours, it is that MLSE has quietly given a 3 year-contract extension to Paul Mariner. It would seem the pragmatists, once thought to be the outsiders, are gaining ground.
http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/co...ing-disconnect
That wasn't the official reason. They scrapped Winter because he wasn't working, not because the system doesn't work. To suggest that all Dutch coaches are the same is ridiculous. what you're saying is that Thomas Rongen, Bob de Klerk and Aron Winter all coach the exact same way and would all get the exact same results if put in charge of the same team. Ridiculous! I guess France should have hired a foreign coach after going out in the group stage of the last two tournaments because that's clearly an indicator that the system that French coaches employ doesn't work, right?
Different coaches bring different results even if they have the same philosophy. There are many teams that have a specific football philosophy and they hire coaches who can implement it, even if the previous one failed
Can we set up a time now to talk about my season ticket renewals or should I just email you directly at the MLSE address I have for you in my address book?Just to warn you, be prepared to tell me why I should renew with Tom Anselmi in charge. Because right now, my money is going towards a golf membership and a few cases of Innis and Gunn.
We have no evidence to suggest he can do the job of implementing a 4-3-3 vision. Which means that we should have a search and if there are more experienced candidates, they should replace him.
That said, I wouldn't worry. Anselmi isn't going to set the vision. What will likely happen is that TR and BDK will eventually leave or be forced out and PM, if season ticket renewals are good, will keep his job and implement his own crew there. One he can control. If Earl plays his cards right, he can be both Director of Excelling in the Field of Excellence and Academy Development. And why the fuck not... Jimmy Brennan can be Goalkeeper Coach as well as the club's official Team Doctor. Jobs for everyone.
Last edited by Pookie; 07-06-2012 at 04:15 PM.
We've all been this this argument before. You simply CANNOT compare roles! There are MANY instances where assistant coaches of poor teams have been promoted to head coach, and then done a hell of a lot better! De Matteo is an easy example of this! If you were to judge him on his assastant roll, you would assume he was going to get bad results as Chelsea. But he didn't, he got good results!
I have no idea why people on this forum keep suggesting that I work for MLSE!Can we set up a time now to talk about my season ticket renewals or should I just email you directly at the MLSE address I have for you in my address book?
We have no evidence to suggest he can do the job of implementing a 4-3-3 vision. Which means that we should have a search and if there are more experienced candidates, they should replace him.
That said, I wouldn't worry. Anselmi isn't going to set the vision. What will likely happen is that TR and BDK will eventually leave or be forced out and PM, if season ticket renewals are good, will keep his job and implement his own crew there. One he can control. If Earl plays his cards right, he can be both Director of Excelling in the Field of Excellence and Academy Development. And why the fuck not... Jimmy Brennan can be Goalkeeper Coach as well as the club's officialTeam Doctor. Jobs for everyone.
I'm just a normal, run of the mill, average fan who going to watch TFC.
Just because I didn't like Winter, and now I like Mariner, and have enjoyed the last few games of us actually getting good results, doesn't make me "in" with the club at all! If I was IN with the club, wouldn't I also have liked Winter and backed him up?!
I guess by asking me a question proves that you can't think of an answer to my original question? I don't think ANYBODY can think of a manager who has had a year and a half to turn a team around and got worse results, and KEPT their job in the process! Anyone?!
^ so what do you think? Can Mariner equal Preki's record of 5-4-1 or will he fall short? 3 wins in 4 games. Can he do it?
As the article clearly suggests, the information was not sourced or confirmed.
In any case, if people want to blame Mariner for being the ring leader of some sort of inner conspiracy to get Winter fired, so be it. I'm done with this topic. Maybe you and others can start a Winter "truth movement" and organize a formal inquiry.
I mean after all, it's not like Winter's record had anything to do with his dismissal.
Are you talking CCL?
I didn't suggest that all Dutch coaches preach similar strategies. But as for Winter, DeKlerk, and Rongen, yes, they were in fact trying to implement the identical variation of the 4-3-3 system with the first team and the Academy, and that was confirmed on this forum many times in the past. And yes, I believe TFC's shortcomings in league play under Winter's tutelage were predominantly a systemic issue.
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 07-06-2012 at 04:24 PM.
Actually, I'm very ok with the idea that Winter was fired. My only issue with the way it went down is that Anselmi didn't go first.
Where I am focussed now is in highlighting where mis-management continues to exist at this club. From the Plata issue right now, to scouting, to roster issues, to not searching for a coach, to having an Academy play a different vision than the coach, to not being sure who the decision maker is (as presented in the Nesta example) to season ticket prices to having more scouts with TFC-A than in the US, to having TFC-A only select players from certain Rep clubs (hail to Brampton and Mississauga) to wasting all my energy (and money) on trying to support a vision that was created with Klinsmann only to see it abandoned as they try to salvage ticket renewals as fans blow themselves silly over a 1-1 draw against the next to worst place team... I guess you could say I am in a bad place right now with respect to how MY football team is being run
Again, don't interpret this as a knock on Mariner. I expect immediate results because of all the above. If they don't materialize, someone needs to answer and set this course. A new leader can keep Mariner, I really don't care at this point. But Mariner's 19 month connection to this club leaves him little wiggle room, IMO and Anselmi's 6 years is 5 years too many.
/end rant
/start new beer
Mariner was not the assistance coach. He was in charge of player acquisition. He shares as much blame as Winter. This isn't a Winter v Mariner thing. They were both shit and needed go but one got fired and one got promoted.
Can you think of an answer to my original question? I don't think ANYBODY can think of a player director who has had a year and a half to turn a team around and got worse results, and KEPT their job in the process and got promoted. And to be clear, I am not talking about assistant coaches, as Mariner was not an assistant coach.
That's fine, and I agree with that. My issue is with people who have decided to hold Mariner accountable as a result, and unjustifiably scrutinize him despite the respectable job he's done thus far.Actually, I'm very ok with the idea that Winter was fired. My only issue with the way it went down is that Anselmi didn't go first.
Where I am focussed now is in highlighting where mis-management continues to exist at this club. From the Plata issue right now, to scouting, to roster issues, to not searching for a coach, to having an Academy play a different vision than the coach, to not being sure who the decision maker is (as presented in the Nesta example) to season ticket prices to having more scouts with TFC-A than in the US, to having TFC-A only select players from certain Rep clubs (hail to Brampton and Mississauga) to wasting all my energy (and money) on trying to support a vision that was created with Klinsmann only to see it abandoned as they try to salvage ticket renewals as fans blow themselves silly over a 1-1 draw against the next to worst place team... I guess you could say I am in a bad place right now with respect to how MY football team is being run
Again, don't interpret this as a knock on Mariner. I expect immediate results because of all the above. If they don't materialize, someone needs to answer and set this course. A new leader can keep Mariner, I really don't care at this point. But Mariner's 19 month connection to this club leaves him little wiggle room, IMO and Anselmi's 6 years is 5 years too many.
/end rant
/start new beer
]
And to be ultra clear for you, in no way am I sticking up for/didn't think Winter should fired. I think Mariner should have been fired as well.
Please tell me why Mariner should have come out from all of this and got a promotion?
Their over visions may have been the same, but that doesn't mean they would have all implemented it the same way. A big part of Winter's problem was his player selection. He tried to play high pressure pass and move football with Dunfield in almost every game, and it caused the midfield to fall apart. He also kept Avila on the bench for a bunch of games at the beginning, and then played him out of position on the wing. And yes, a bad DM is a massive problem in the Dutch system. You can't say that De Klerk and Rongen would have made the same boneheaded game day selections that Winter did.
I can also say that de Klerk, Rongen, and Winter don't have the same preferred way of lining up. I remember one halftime video with Rongen and de Klerk arguing about point forward vs point back, which does make a huge difference in the way the team plays.
We have lost ground on the playoff spot. I don't call that progress.
And the reason he is held accountable is that he was here for 19 months. He has also embarked on a new model, with the same players therefore needs to justify why his vision is better than the one that SKC has adopted.
Sporting Kansas City and the Chicago Fire to name two.
They're both way better as a result. Sometimes the right guy is just hiding in plain sight.
And no one has ever provided compelling evidence that Paul Mariner was the guy with the final say on TFC's roster decision up 'til now. He was there to provide insight and connections in MLS but was clearly subordinate to Winter. People suggesting otherwise are pushing an agenda not supported by any mainstream reporter or blogger who is close to the team. Kurt Larson is being pilloried for making the same point (however pithy he's been about it).
According to Cochrane on the TSN FC podcast both him and Mariner were the ones responsible for bringing in players.
Under the first two years with Klopas as the TD, the Chicago Fire finished 2nd in the east and made it to the semi finals of the MLS cup. In Peter Vermes first year as TD for KC, they were 1 point off of a playoff spot with 10 wins and in his second season they made the play offs. Toronto had 6 wins last year and 2 this year. I just don't see how that justifies a promotion or is similar to the situations you mentioned.
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