Koevermans is pretty much our new DeRo. Not in the egotistical way, but in the sense that we have one of the best strikers in the league, but that striker is our only attacking threat. You will never do well if you're relying on one player's form to get you goals. A little off topic, but that comparison just hit me while I was reading the thread.
Please don't kill me for mentioning DeRo
So, are you saying Mariner isn't going to be around for the LONG TERM?Originally Posted by T-boy
We know he doesn't believe in it. Given the first chance he had he abandoned it and now according to some is completely responsible for, again according to some, the remarkable turnaround. As a potential Coach of the Year Candidate, he'd be a bit of a fool to abandon a sure fire way to MLSE's favorite phrase... "competing for a playoff spot"
Can Mariner actually coach, nurture and support a 4-3-3 Dutch-like tactical system (Considering TR is teaching it and BDK is supposedly scouting players to play it)?
If not, there is a disconnect and always will be until one or the other moves on.
Last edited by Pookie; 07-06-2012 at 11:48 AM.
Well according to T.Rongen who runs TFCA,when developing a player,442 needs 1 maybe 2 skilled/creative player,442 is very rigid ,while in 433 you can have up to 5 creative players and the whole team is moving/touching ball more and the end result is 433 develops better skilled player,you don't need to dig deep to see difference between Spain and England or Ireland,two different game philosophies with end results like day and night.
I think people are confusing "formation" with "style" or "tactics". 4-4-2 doesn't HAVE to be rigid. And equally 4-3-3 doesn't have to be technical. I've seen some extremely rigid, hard pressing, long ball teams play 4-3-3 before! You can easily modify the 4-3-3 "total football" system into 4-4-2, or 4-5-1, or 3-4-3 (as shown by Winter, just shown badly!). The technicial ability and mentality you learn playing De Klerks version of 4-3-3 can be played in ANY formation.
Can you tell me/show me where/when Mariner has said that he "doesn't believe in" the 4-3-3 system? I honestly don't remember him ever saying that.
Only if you teach them to play 433,and that's is the whole point,you teach the kids 442 you are stuck with that forever.You develop the kids in 433 and they will adapt to any formation.
the whole point is that clubs that do not change their philosophies with every new head coach are successful once,regardless what that philosophy is,Bayern plays 442 and all of their academies are practicing 442 and they will not change that just because coach likes 433 ,actually they wont even hire coach if he wants to play 433.
And what TFC FO did,total opposite,hire a guy who is 442 old style coach,doesn't know 433 even if he wants to implement,and keeps kids in 433,it is not Mariner's fault,it is his uncle Tom screw up,Mariner's fault is that he lied to parents and kids from TFCA that TFC will hire 433 coach once Winter is gone so that kids can keep developing same as 1st team playing and now some parents took their talented kids out of TFCA.
The idea of staying on course is that kids brought from academy to the 1st team don't have to learn position again,it is much easier for them to play their own position with in system they were developed.
^ what denime said. Plus actions my friend, actions. He has abandoned it instead of continuing to teach it. There was also plenty of debate between Winter led "Visionaries" and "MLS Pragmatists" led by Mariner/Cochrane which pointed to a conflict in vision.
Further to that, let's assume he believes in it. What experience does Mariner in implementing it? He never really played it. NE Revs never used it. Back on the old sod, he never used it.
If we ever supposedly flip the switch on 4-3-3, why is he the best man for the job? His impressive 1.1 points per game aside of course
I don't personally believe there is a link between the two, honestly!
Do ANY of us here think that the current defenders we have at the club can play Winter's 4-3-3 successfully? They didn't show it at all when he was coach!
So, Mariner has changed the first team's style so they actually get results. I don't think that's a bad thing at all. And meanwhile, De Klerk and Rongen are STILL at the club and teaching their philosaphy to the kids. I think the long term is still in place, while Mariner is currently making sure that TFC get short term results.
If I say "I like sweet food", does it mean that I DON'T like savoury food? No, it doesn't.
Mariner has said that the players he has will dictate the way we play. Right NOW - TFC is full of VERY average MLS players who can only be successful playing a simple game. So, Mariner gets them to play this simple game. There is no indication, at all, that Mariner couldn't adopt a more technicaly style WHEN TFC have the personel to do so. He said himself that players dictate the style and formation. Doesn't that indicate that WHEN the club have enough tecnically proficient players, that he will play a more tehnical game?
Or am I reading Mariner's comment completely incorrectly? Are you saying that when Mariner says "players dictate formations" that it means that "I will play 4-4-2 no matter what?". I don't read it that way!
As someone who coached youth for many years, I'll vouch that denime is mostly right with this. I did manage to teach a more technical game and a 4-3-3 formation to youth, but it was difficult. You are teaching a whole new mentality, not just a style and a formation. If all of your instincts are to boot and run because you were taught that from an early age, it's not just a simple matter of switching a switch.
Technical players (my oldest son was one) can learn boot and run, it's easy. He did that when he moved to rep, although he first learned his football emulating Zidane in France.
Last edited by Oldtimer; 07-06-2012 at 12:43 PM.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Lastly - I don't understand the "fear" of playing longer ball, more direct style of football! I've seen some fantastic long ball teams in my time, some VERY exciting pressing football teams! The "fear" of playing "non total football" is overwhelming on this forum. It's like some people have been given a drug that makes tham only desire ONE type of football, or that some people saw Spain play in the Euro's and think that's the ONLY way to play football. In reality, hardly ANY football teams in the worl can play the way Spain play, or the way Barca can play, or the way Ajax played in the 90's. In reality, the majority of team play a mixed style of short passing, long passing, AND "hoofball". Hoofball doesn't always mean Preki-s dogmatic style of football, which was horrible to watch. I've actually found Mariner's style, so far, to be a good mix of short and long passing, technical and simple mixed together.
People shouldn't FEAR, or be scared, or playing some longer ball football.
After all - TFC's BEST goal when Winter was head coach was a LONG DIRECT ball from Frei to Martina! That was long ball football, and it was goal of the season! Did anybody complain at the time...do we think that Frei should have played the short pass to the full back instead of give it long to Martina to score a fantastic goal?
You shouldn't fear long ball football - sometimes long ball football is fantastic to watch.
Last edited by T-boy; 07-06-2012 at 12:45 PM.
Again, why does 4-4-2 HAVE to be "boot and run"? I think that's wrong assumption to make. Formation and style are different.
It doesn't have to be. Mariner's 4-4-2 is boot and run, though. It's very traditional English football, and it's no co-incidence that Mariner's greatest defenders on this board happen to be English.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Correct his style is currently mostly boot and run. But, nobody has answered the other question! Does TFC currently have defenders that can play anything OTHER than boot and run? I would argue NO. So, Mariner doesn't have much of a choice on style of play right now. We ALL saw how unsuccessful MLS players were at Winter's technically proficient game were, correct?
Right now we have a full back playing CB, a 19 year old playing FB, another CB who has played 4 games in MLS, and the other FB who has played more games in midfield than he has defense in his MLS career. Does that sound like a bunch of defenders who should be playing Winter's short passing style right now? Mariner's choice is playing more direct (especially out of defense) is extremely sensible given the players we have! Or would you all rather us bring Iro and Harden back as CB pairing and try Winter's short passing out of the backline once again?!
And secondly - why does "boot and run" have to be horrible football to watch?
I totally agree, while people have their preferences, one should be open to all formations and tactics, It makes for intelligent, open minded fans.
This may be off topic and off sport, but whilst coaching All-Ontario Silver Medalists Adult Broomball Team, when we were on a Power Play I would occasionally pull my goalie to have six attackers and totally fuck-up the opposing team, and score a goal or win the game.
The element of surprise in tactics can make a difference, even in Football, what seems to be working, go with it. just my opinion.
TFC 2 Union 1 on Sunday, Come on you Reds
It's not. I'm finding it much more entertaining than the "lets see how many passes we can string together before we give the ball to the opposition in a dangerous position" tactic.
I was willing to go along with the attempt to bring Ajax to North America. I finally ran out of patience on the day that Frings came back from injury and coughed up a pass for a goal in the first minute. It was quite obvious that Winter didn't have a clue and needed to be relieved of his position. It took a few more weeks and becoming the "worst team in the world" before that happened.
Now in a short period of time we have a team that is scoring goals, competing in every game and looks as if they enjoying playing. With a bit more tweeking and some slight improvements in personnel we can be a team to compete seriously in this league.
For those of you who would prefer to lose while trying to look like Barcelona, there's nothing I can say.
There is a middle point between Winter's overly technical system (too hard for the Hardens and Canns) and Mariner's longball play. I didn't like either. Winter's, because TFC is not Barcelona and will never be able to play that technically complex a game, and Mariner's "let's boot it down the field and lose possession," which was antiquated 10 years ago and will never lead to TFC being a top team. Mariner is no better than Preki so far, and Preki failed to make the playoffs.
The language divide means that most here have never watched French football, which is a pity: it combines technical wizardry like Zidane exemplified with tough physical play that any Serioux would be proud of. It would be a good model for MLS to follow.
Last edited by Oldtimer; 07-06-2012 at 01:37 PM.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
I know I post here, like... never... but please take a moment to think about why you should use a different verb. It just. isn't. the same.
Not sure what you're getting at. I thought it was an appropriate way to describe our opponents imposing their will on TFC.
I'm sorry if you find it offensive.
You have summed up the problem quite nicely. TFC have horrible roster mismanagment, it is Mariner and Winters fault for not getting the players to play the system we decided to play. It is there decision to go with the young back line, they are at fault for not getting better vetern players and depth in the defensive positions.Correct his style is currently mostly boot and run. But, nobody has answered the other question! Does TFC currently have defenders that can play anything OTHER than boot and run? I would argue NO. So, Mariner doesn't have much of a choice on style of play right now. We ALL saw how unsuccessful MLS players were at Winter's technically proficient game were, correct?
Right now we have a full back playing CB, a 19 year old playing FB, another CB who has played 4 games in MLS, and the other FB who has played more games in midfield than he has defense in his MLS career. Does that sound like a bunch of defenders who should be playing Winter's short passing style right now? Mariner's choice is playing more direct (especially out of defense) is extremely sensible given the players we have! Or would you all rather us bring Iro and Harden back as CB pairing and try Winter's short passing out of the backline once again?!
And secondly - why does "boot and run" have to be horrible football to watch?
Btw dont tell me MLS cant have the technicaly good players because of the cap, there are many teams that have such players. KC,RSL,LA,Seattle etc.
I agree
To be honest....I'd imagine that many people who support TFC (and football in general in Toronto/Canada) have watched tons of football in their lifetimes. And have been passionate about it too. Where I think there is a disconnect is the variety of football that has been watched.
Growing up in an Italian home, with an Italian father as my coach, I was exposed to Italian football. Both professional and recreational.
BUT....I was a soccer junkie and would watch anything I could.
I LOVED soccer saturday with Graham Leggat (miss it a lot lol) and as such...was exposed to highlights and vignettes about every major league in Europe and even some of the smaller ones.
I also was forced to watch the Premiership on Saturdays because, if you loved football, you had the choice to watch Man U every Saturday or nothing. LOL
Many football lovers that grew up with English and other British roots likely didn't care to watch Serie A games Sunday mornings and have always been catered to in this country when it comes to football coverage.
Even when leagues like Serie A were far and away the best in the world.
It's even worse now. THere are still shows on television called the "soccer show" or the "footy show" but they're about 90% EPL and tiny tidbits of other leagues. Even when the Score showed Serie A this year...their content before and after games was EPL-centric.
Its hard to compete with that. It's hard to argue that there is other football out there and other ways to play when it's all we get exposed to.
That's the only reason that I can come up with to explain why people would still want to watch hoof ball and go so far as to suggest that it can bring success.
It's not about saying that only Barca and Spain can play possession football. Any team can play it. It just takes time. It's all relative.
The sad thing, for me, is that TFC tried it for a little over one season and abandoned it...and for who?
A man who still thinks that hoof ball can be successful and supporters who love it in part because of nostalgia.
It's like the old Italian cattenaccio (I wasn't a fan of playing for a 0-0 tie LOL). It was effective at one point in time but to play it today would be horrible to watch, hard to win with and a terrible way to develop players.
-The Canadian Soccer News report is pure speculation. Nothing confirmed.
-If Rongen or DeKlerk were promoted to maintain the same tactical approach as Winter with the first team, why make a change in the first place? The impetus regarding a change at the coaching level was that the 4-3-3 clearly wasn't working with the first team, and based on the makeup of our current roster, Mariner has implemented a more practical approach that has yielded results in league play thus far.
-Once again, there is no evidence to support that Mariner played an underhanded role of some sort in Winter's dismissal. Mariner's alleged contract extension has little to do with the fact that Winter's record in of itself had justified his dismissal. Any other manager that started the season 0-9 would have likely been fired even sooner than that. Furthermore, there's no chance in hell that the incoming ownership group would have wanted to be saddled with a long term successor to Winter that wasn't their guy. As I've stated many times, Bell/Rogers/Tanenbaum will obviously want to conduct their own search for a replacement if Mariner falters. Who's naive?
-As for Anselmi, I'm not sure how you possibly concluded from reading my post that I defended him in any manner whatsoever.
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 07-06-2012 at 03:18 PM.
-In this day and age of social networking and online media, you can hardly fault management in the event that unsubstantiated rumors may have leaked on twitter. It happens all the time.
-Winter wasn't fired because of a stretch of a few games in which Frings or Koevermans were injured earlier this season. He was fired because of his cumulative record in league play over 44 games.
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 07-06-2012 at 03:10 PM.
Explain the rationale behind extending Mariners contract?
Seriously... I come on here almost every day and swear I remember everyone talking about how poorly we play in the 433 and will never be able to be implemented in a talent handicapped league. Now we make the changes, team is playing competitive soccer and everyone is against it??
I am NOT one of the "everyone" that was complaining about the 4-3-3. And it's also not "everyone" complaining about the garbage style we play now. LOL
So, still no case being made for Mariner to be able to oversee a 4-3-3 system eventually?
Meaning that if we are to continue with TR and the TFC-A playing 4-3-3 at some point we will need to part ways with Mariner. Conversely, if he is to stay, we will part ways with TR?
I can see your point here and this may be the thinking of FO.
In my opinion though eventually I think it will just lead to another disagreement between the Dutch TD and the English coach instead of the other way around that it was with Winter.
Exaggerated slightly for effect lol.
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