Rate Mariner: June 2012

[__wowza]

PLEASE READ BEFORE RATING!
(it'll make everything a hell of a lot easier)

Each category gets a specific rating, from 5 (being the highest) to 1 (being the lowest). To calculate the average rating, just add your total up and divide by 5, if it's got a decimal point at the end of it, you can round either up or down based on the simple question "did Winter perform up to your expectations for the month". Afterward, you post your total rating on the poll, from 5 - 1. In addition to that, each game has a link to the official TFC recap in case you need a refresher of what went on. Here's the criteria:

TACTICS
how did you feel about the tactical choices made?
what about his starters? subs? formation?

RESULTS
at the end of the day, how did we do in terms of results? did we tie games we should've lost? lost games we should've won? etc.

EFFICIENCY
how effective was the coach in utilizing the players he has?
did he play some players out of position? did he have a reason to?

COMMUNICATION
how effective was the coach in explaining his outlook and choices in the paper / on torontofc.ca / on TFCtv / in post match interviews?

TRADES & MISC
were the trades made productive or counter-productive?
did he fly off the handle at get a 4 game ban?
was he making eyes at your wife/girlfriend/same-sex partner?


A general guideline: Its how you feel at the moment, not a final assessment. Like a marathon, this is just a snapshot of our support for the month. A low approval rating does not rate him as an overall failure, just like a high approval rating does not mean he's Sir Alex Ferguson. For the sake of context, this is how he / TFC have preformed in June:


LEAGUE PLAY
6 points out of a possible 15
10TH in the East -
19TH out of 19 overall -
GD: +1 (last months -5)

Sporting KC v Toronto FC
JUNE 16th : LOSS 2-0

Houston Dynamo v Toronto FC
JUNE 20th : TIE 3-3

Toronto FC v New England Rev
JUNE 23rd : TIE 2-2

Montreal Impact v Toronto FC
JUNE 27th : WIN 0-3

Toronto FC v New York RB
JUNE 30th : TIE 1-1


*like always, if there's a category you think i missed please share!

[__wowza]

TACTICS: 3

• i'd still like to see more of soolsma.
• it seems like he's hit the mark with the morgan/koev crossing combo.
• i don't know if it's because we lack depth that he's playing the same back four every game, or if this is going to be his preferred defensive team. the guys look absolutely gassed, and with good reason. how bout putting frings back in the back every now and again?
• i'll give him the benefit of the doubt because of the schedule, and the arrests.
• the first few games were hard to watch with how much senseless possession we were losing.

RESULTS: 4

• again, the schedule had a big part in all of this, but for the most part of the houston and new england, we were defending like chickens with our heads cut off. kocic kept us in the game for those two, so im giving those results to him and not mariner.
• we tied a game that felt like a tie, and we tied one that felt like a loss.
• it's good that we're picking up points, so that's a +1 attached to any rating im giving him.
• the tie against NY was well deserved.

EFFICIENCY: N/A

• im abstaining because i dont want to discuss whose job it was to bring in players.
• we had a tough schedule, 3 away games in two weeks and 3 players arrested. nuff said.

COMMUNICATION: 4

• it's great not to hear "pity" after every interview and "vell, we playyehd gooot"
• seems like a mad man on the touchline, old school english coach like other folks have said, he seems to be pretty straight forward and answering questions during interviews without running the team into the ground.

TRADES & MISC: N/A

• he looks like someones drunk uncle. im waiting until the transfer window opens.

OVERALL: 4

[ryan]

You need to update yer explanation thinger there.

"did Winter perform up to your expectations for the month"

For the sake of context, this is how he / TFC have preformed in September:

[__wowza]

You need to update yer explanation thinger there.

care to be more specific?
im not calling him chris cummins am i?

[T-boy]

4 from me.

Good results, even with throwing away a couple of wins. But I can see a real change in the performances over the 5 games.

The team could be playing a little "fancier" football, but I can't compain too much as we've seen more goals and goalmouth action form TFC in these last 5 games as we've seen in a couple of seasons.

The next month is going to be most important, and we will see Mariner make a couple of trades and see what direction and what squad HE wants to build. Right now he's still playing with "Winter's squad" (yes, even though he was part to do with that build up). But now HE has the final say, it will be intersting to see what he does with the squad and trades.

[Whoop]

Just reading Soccernomics while on vacation in Europe and they have a whole section on "Do Managers Matter?" and about managers replacing displaced ones.

TFC is just regressing to the mean.

To paraphrase a typical club earns 1.3 points per match studies have found. And typically clubs sack their manager when they are averaging 1 point per match. Whether a club sacks its manager or not it will regress to the mean.

Let's see how Mariner does over some time...

[DaBandit]

Not sure how some of you are giving out 4 stars to a coach that got 6 out of a possible 15..

[Pookie]

Hope is a strategy ^

[ryan]

care to be more specific?
im not calling him chris cummins am i?

Sorry, was slow to edit in the quotes there.

[T-boy]

Not sure how some of you are giving out 4 stars to a coach that got 6 out of a possible 15..

You have to look at Mariner's first five games as just that...FIRST games. If he is getting 6 out of 15 points in September I won't be giving him 4 stars, I will be giving him less. But for what I've seen as a START to his management, I'm pleased and gave him 4 stars. I scored him as I thought accurate for the position TFC are in, and how he took over mid season with very few traning session, and looking at what he has achieved to date. I didn't score score on 6 points alone, I scored his overall performance.

[__wowza]

Not sure how some of you are giving out 4 stars to a coach that got 6 out of a possible 15..

benefit of the doubt. with the roster the way it is, 3 away games out of 5 games in 2 weeks, and the arrests, etc, i gave him a bump. he's adjusted the roster back to 4-4-2, like i said with winter, i'll give him/the players time to get their heads around his style first.

[Gazza]

Just reading Soccernomics while on vacation in Europe and they have a whole section on "Do Managers Matter?" and about managers replacing displaced ones.

TFC is just regressing to the mean.

To paraphrase a typical club earns 1.3 points per match studies have found. And typically clubs sack their manager when they are averaging 1 point per match. Whether a club sacks its manager or not it will regress to the mean.

Let's see how Mariner does over some time...

Great read. Hope you're enjoying it. I'm a stats/soccer guy so it was like porn to me.

[jabbronies]

I gave him a 3. A neutral score IMO

At the end of the day I'm not really sure how much of our success is due to him or is it just the players coming around. Not like we weren't getting chances to score before, we just couldn't finish. We also have a healthy Torsten and Danny, both of who's contributions are a large part of our current success in form. But our backline is still conceding bad goals. Twice we've lost points in the final minutes of play. We play horrendous during that loss to Sporting KC, and for large portions of the game on Saturday we were flat and did absolutely nothing going forward. At the end of the day the only thing that has changed is that we are finishing our chances.

1-1-3 is not a horrible record for us considering the season we are having and since he was the skipper for those games, he should get some credit for the results.

[__wowza]

You need to update yer explanation thinger there.

wanna know the worst part? i got all the stuff from march's "rate winter thread"

[Initial B]

I rate him a two. The points are an improvement, but not great. Mismanaged the Plata situation so that he's pretty much gone. Don't trust the news propoganda coming from the various media sources. I'm still not convinced that Winter wouldn't have got the same results.

[jloome]

TFC is just regressing to the mean.
...

Under Winter we were so far below the mean, we're progressing to the mean.

Interesting stats but I find this one more interesting:
Five games before Mariner, goal differential -5
Five games with Mariner, goal differential +1

Add in the fact that we led three of those five games and there's no doubt to me he's at least a three and really probably a four for his first month, given what he inherited.

I'd also note the players seem to agree: http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/articl...nbeaten-streak

[T-boy]

I rate him a two. The points are an improvement, but not great. Mismanaged the Plata situation so that he's pretty much gone. Don't trust the news propoganda coming from the various media sources. I'm still not convinced that Winter wouldn't have got the same results.

This is something we will never know. But in the end of the day, head coaches/managers are judged on results. Winter's results simply weren't good enough in the time he had. And he had LOTS of time, much longer than most managers would get in the majority of leagues in the world. I can't name another manager in any other league that has gone 9 games without a point and kept their job, and certainly not at the start of a season? However, since Mariner has taken charge, the results have been far improved.

We have to wait and see if Mariner's charge will continue the improving trend, but based on THIS month alone, its a good start.

We can argue whether Winter would have changed things around as quickly as Mariner has over the last month, all day. But we can only judge Winter on the time he was here, not in the time "he could have been here and MIGHT have got results". Thinking that he "might" have got results just isn't good enough in professional football, unfortunately.

[Couchy81]

I don't see how you can justify this being a subjective rating T-boy. If you would give him 3 stars in September for an identical job as June, you should be giving him 3 stars now. I'm all for giving new players and new managers time to adjust, but don't pretty up the numbers because he's the new guy.

[Oldtimer]

TACTICS
Antiquated longball strategy resulted in 1 win in 5. Very standard formation, defensive structure, triangle play, etc. Any NCAA player knows this stuff. Substitutions and selection suspect at times. 2/5

RESULTS
It shows that MLS still isn't as good as we'd like that this strategy worked, although many MLS coaches had much better records in June. It's not good enough to make the playoffs, but give an extra +1 because he's new at this and maybe his record will improve. 3/5

EFFICIENCY
Dunfield is a poor choice any time, and choosing a formation (supposedly to fit the players) that (1) marginalizes Plata (RPB's player of the year, last year) (2) minimizes Eck's strengths and plays him out of position is not too impressive. Some of the substitutions suspect, as above. 2/5

COMMUNICATION
Here he's quite good. I could barely understand Winter, or JC for that matter. He's plain-spoken and not a snake like Mo. 4/5

TRADES & MISC
The Nesta debacle makes me give him 0/5.

Average 2.2, rounded down to 2.

[T-boy]

Did we EVER have a chance of singing Nesta?! I don't think it was ever on the cards, was it? The fact that he was at the Montreal game just goes to prove that montreal were the team who were going to sign him, never TFC.

[Fort York Redcoat]

COMMUNICATION
Here he's quite good. I could barely understand Winter, or JC for that matter. He's plain-spoken and not a snake like Mo. 4/5

TRADES & MISC
The Nesta debacle makes me give him 0/5.

Average 2.2, rounded down to 2.

Did we EVER have a chance of singing Nesta?! I don't think it was ever on the cards, was it? The fact that he was at the Montreal game just goes to prove that montreal were the team who were going to sign him, never TFC.

I think it more apt to challenge the communication than the trade. Since we don't know whether we were seriously in the running for this serious addition to our problem area that would be a lack of communication. Same overall result though. Give him a one for the Nesta rumour surfacing but take a away a point because the support is left unsure if management really tried.

[Phil]

I think a 3 or a 2....

Things that kill it for me are the late collapses that conceeded goals and the handling of Plata plus the player escapades in Houston.

Longball and Anarchy are some crazy foundations. I do have some belief that he can turn it around and get a better system in place soon. Hopefully some team shakeup and additions will make this easier.

I voted 3 because of destroying Montreal

[Whoop]

Great read. Hope you're enjoying it. I'm a stats/soccer guy so it was like porn to me.

It's awesome.

In two days... while on vacation... I read 3/4 of it. Relating a lot of it to my hockey job.

[CoachGT]

Great book! I could immediately see links to hockey Whoop.

As for ratings, I hold to not making any judgement, even preliminary, until at least mid-July.

[DaBandit]

You have to look at Mariner's first five games as just that...FIRST games. If he is getting 6 out of 15 points in September I won't be giving him 4 stars, I will be giving him less. But for what I've seen as a START to his management, I'm pleased and gave him 4 stars. I scored him as I thought accurate for the position TFC are in, and how he took over mid season with very few traning session, and looking at what he has achieved to date. I didn't score score on 6 points alone, I scored his overall performance.

I think you being way to easy on him.. His tactics, puzzling substitutions and record give him no better than 2 out of 5, MAYBE a 3..

[DaBandit]

TACTICS
Antiquated longball strategy resulted in 1 win in 5. Very standard formation, defensive structure, triangle play, etc. Any NCAA player knows this stuff. Substitutions and selection suspect at times. 2/5

RESULTS
It shows that MLS still isn't as good as we'd like that this strategy worked, although many MLS coaches had much better records in June. It's not good enough to make the playoffs, but give an extra +1 because he's new at this and maybe his record will improve. 3/5

EFFICIENCY
Dunfield is a poor choice any time, and choosing a formation (supposedly to fit the players) that (1) marginalizes Plata (RPB's player of the year, last year) (2) minimizes Eck's strengths and plays him out of position is not too impressive. Some of the substitutions suspect, as above. 2/5

COMMUNICATION
Here he's quite good. I could barely understand Winter, or JC for that matter. He's plain-spoken and not a snake like Mo. 4/5

TRADES & MISC
The Nesta debacle makes me give him 0/5.

Average 2.2, rounded down to 2.

IMHO this is a very accurate assessment..

[Stouffville_RPB]

2 - I no longer have patience for letting the team mesh and get used to tactics (and going back to a simple 4-4-2 just getting the ball to the CFs shouldn't be too hard for pros to pick up) it's about results.

The points we have picked up have been in large to Koevermans finally being fit and on form, TFC are still amateur level at the back. Having two leads vanish and turn to draws in the 2nd half isn't progress, TFC have been able to drop points all their existence. Against New York the defense seemed out to lunch on more than 1 occasion so improving the defense has not happened.

As far as personel, the Plata and Nesta situations do not do him any favors.

Overall this is still the same team, poor defending, at times dangerous up front, comical in the personel department. Players (see Koevermans) are just scoring on their chances (that were always there). The manager has had little to no effect.

[brad]

2. Supposed to be some small tweaks according to the man himself, do I don't see that needing time

Results are still bad, but as jloome (I think ) mentioned things were so bad under Winter that bad under Mariner looks better.

A bunch of our key stats are down, but Danny's making us look better than we are. Late collapses remind me of Preki when we'd hoof the ball out near the end of matches and suffer waves of attack before breaking.

Communication is laughable - based on the Plata situation. Handle it behind closed doors and don't announce that you have no idea what your players are doing

Jury is out on Nesta. They have a DP slot now and we don't and that is huge. Could be as simple as that. I'm not judging that one though until I see how Nesta does and if we bolster our backline

[TFCRegina]

I gave him a 3. Doing a far better job of grinding out points than Winter.

[denime]

Did we EVER have a chance of singing Nesta?! I don't think it was ever on the cards, was it? The fact that he was at the Montreal game just goes to prove that montreal were the team who were going to sign him, never TFC.

Nesta was at BMO last Saturday too,so we can say yes, we did have a chance to sign Nesta.

Gave Mariner 3 because Montreal game,overall 2 is more realistic for this month.

I'm waiting for Sunday game to compare Winter's last months and 3-2-2 record with Mariner's 1st full month,as for now 1-1-4 does not looks like we have improved a lot, if at all since Mariner took over.