It comes with GOALS!!Originally Posted by T-boy
sorry T-boy, this was to your "ugly football" quote.
It comes with GOALS!!
sorry T-boy, this was to your "ugly football" quote.
Can someone explain what this thing called "playoffs" is - I've never experienced them before?To make matters worse (there's some strong parallels here), their only true success? The bloody USOC! Where Seattle is in great shape to win their....FOURTH in a row!
While they've had stronger MLS regular season campaigns than us, they've won the same amount of playoffs rounds as us, ZERO. 3 straight one and done (only winning 1 of the 6 legs played).
I gave Mariner a two - he has a way to go yet, in my books. Having Brennan shake a cardboard cutout of Sir Alex up and down the sidelines would have been enough to produce the same results that we have seen since Mariner arrived. Almost any change away from Winter was bound to produce improvement. If more improvement is seen in the next 6 weeks or so, Mariner will have me onside.
Great assessment IMO.
Moderator
I only gave the man a three out of five, and I still think this is ridiculously unfair to him. While your cardboard cutout line sounds amusing, it's not based in any sort of evidence-based reality. As is the idea that Winter was so bad, that literally ANYONE ELSE could have propelled the team from 1-9 to now being several games in row unbeaten. You just pulled that assertion from thin air.
There's no doubt that we have a way to go, and draws need to become wins for me to take Mariner seriously as any sort of longer term solution at manager. I also have some serious questions about his in-game tactics, and his extremely direct system - but give the man credit where it's clearly due.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
What has caused the upswing in the team's trajectory? The law of averages? Danny finding his misplaced rabbit's foot? Hooker party in Houston? Sunspots? Roster health, fitness and gelling? Hot weather? A change of coach, any coach? A change to Mariner specifically? How about Brennan on the sidelines? To give Mariner much credit yet, is a little rich...
Here is the scenario in the locker room, on the day Winter got turfed....
Mariner: Well boys, Aaron has been sent to Davy Jones' Locker today and I'm the new coach. We've had a hell of a rough patch, and I know everyone has been giving it a 110%, but something has to change. Lets go round the room once to get everyone's thoughts on how we turn the ship around... Richard, lets start with you...
Ecks: Well coach, I know it is just crazy talk, but I actually think that our formation and strategy is killing us.
Mariner: Richard, you have to be more specific - I don't want a list of problems, I want solutions!
Ecks: Well... err... where I come from we tend to use the 4-4-2, and ummm.....
Mariner: spit it out Eckersley!
Ecks: Well... if we get some pressure on the back line we boot the effin ball way up the field rather than fiddle with an extra pass or two that might give the other team a chance....
Mariner: That is bloody genius Richard! In-fucking-credible idea! Well mates, what do you think? Should we give Dicky's brilliant idea a chance?
(A round of aye's go round the locker room...)
I would be the first to say that Mariner could be what has primarily propelled the team from the worst team in the world to the current state of mildly under-performing mediocracy. That being said, the ball boy could have led the locker room discussion mentioned above. Are we seeing the classic dead cat bounce or is Mariner an evil soccer genius? No way to tell for sure yet. I will be the last one to let the Front Office and Paul Mariner off the hook just because of one win and a couple of ties... The sickness in this franchise has nothing to do with the players on the field and Paul Mariner has been a political "player" in the thick of it, for 18 months - his survival and promotion in the MLSE environment almost seals the deal that he is part of the problem, not the solution. To be fair tho, I think we will just have to wait to see if he is Jesus Christ or Beelzebub...
^I feel the need to point out the recent success rate in goal scoring has more to do with Donkey Kong's fitness, not luck. This present contribution of his was the expectation.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Koevermans was a goal scoring machine last season under Winter as well. He may or may not be more comfortable in a two striker formation, but in my mind, Koevs is not the sole reason for TFC's string of decent results lately.
The main difference between Winter's results and Mariner's results has been the team's defensive play, and subsequently, their goal differential. Assuming that TFC's offensive output would have been comparable under Winter with Koevermans rounding into form, that doesn't mean that the results would have been similar. TFC leaked goals like a sieve under Winter's tutelage, even when they played at their best during his tenure.
Mariner has taken a raw backline that has been decimated with injuries and found a way to lead the team to a positive goal differential after his first 6 games at the helm. Since the two blown leads against Houston and New England, TFC has played very responsible defensively, and the positive results have ensued. For that reason, Mariner absolutely deserves credit where credit is due.
Don't you think that the main difference has been that we have scored early and often to take the pressure off of the defenders? Our offence has got us out in front or responded very quickly when we have got behind - this has made life much easier for the defenders... In the past five games our defenders have only had to defend while being behind for about 30 minutes. In both games where the other team took the lead, Koevermans responded 2 minutes later and 25 minutes later, respectively. At this point it has been Danny K. all the way! We will have to see how Mariner's "new" midfield + defenders make out in the long haul with long stretches of sustained pressure when tied 0-0 or behind. So far, so good, but overall that back line has had it easy recently - perhaps our offence can keep it that way! I will give Mariner his due in a couple of months, if the team can keep up the momentum and changes some of those ties to wins! In the meantime Donkey Kong rocks!
KC 2-0 - loss
Houston - Hall gets us out front at 13 minute, Kov bags two more before halftime
New England - Kov pots one at the 4th minute
Montreal - tied 0-0 until Frings puts us ahead at the 52nd minute
NY - Kov pots one at the 6th minute to tie us up
Dallas - kov ties us up at 1-1 at the 30th minute mark
5 votes for 5 star? I didn't know Kurt Larson was a RPB, or that he has the ability to cast 5 votes!
I demand the same voting rights.
didn't know where else to post this :
a ha ha heh he hoo.. ha
Fucker just released Soolsma. That's pretty much it for me. He just dipped from a three to a one.
I hate Paul mariner he is a fucking clown, he acts like a clown on the side lines. Zero clue on how to actually manage this club or any club for that manner. He is stuck in the eighties with this hoof ball that he plays. He is by far the worst manager ever and I rate him worse than Preki.
He is slowly clearing out winter's signings first plata, now Soolsma. You guys are all sheep if you believe in this clown. He is the second coming of Mo trust me. He already shot done Nesta (I guess cause he is not English as there is no reason why he don't need him). I hate to say this, but I hope TFC loses every game so this sorry piece of shit gets fired
a thousand sunglasses fall from above frame, all landing at precisely the right place on mariners face.
also before the game, we had rated mariner for june worse than we had rated winter for march. very interesting.
Why is that interesting?
While MLS play was obviously not great @ 0-3-0, the focus was CCL and the Reds drew LA @ Rogers 2-2, went to LA and beat them 2-1 and had just drawn Santos 1-1 at home. The return leg at Santos wasn't until April.
I'd say that was worthy of a higher rating.
You actually gave him a four not a three.. Lol
you didn't enjoy tonight's match very much, then, did you?!
Blissfully think what you want - Mariner is a fucking idiot moving Plata and Soolsma out - and this is not the end of it... This team is on a fast train to nowhere. Where the hell is the next stop? I want to get off.... you are the only one in the whole fucking galaxy who thinks all is well with this team - carry on T-boi in your dream world... this franchise is going down... nowhere to go but down... down... down... enjoy your $350 seats all by yourself - I hope you enjoy the silence and stench of watching and smelling the worst fucking team in the world - I get more enjoyment from my daughter's rec league games - they play a fuckin better game too... Exciting game tonight?? -bullshit - last game of first season was exciting - this is Anselmi bullcrap - I will not swallow. You live in some fouth dimension dreamworld. What is going on with this team is enough to make me barf all over my keyboard.you didn't enjoy tonight's match very much, then, did you?!
Last edited by tiberius; 07-11-2012 at 11:23 PM.
Back to thread topic - Paul Mariner is a ZERO COACH - ZERO, ZERO, ZERO - I originally gave him a "2" in the poll, based on the benefit of the doubt - what an idiot I was - this guy is a ZERO - tie him to Tom Anselmi, add a couple of cinder blocks and send the two of them to Davey Jones locker. This team and Front Office crew are so far beyond redemption, it is beyond words.you didn't enjoy tonight's match very much, then, did you?!
Last edited by tiberius; 07-11-2012 at 11:37 PM.
I forgot about this thread when I went on a Future v Past rant in the post game thread. I'll repost here where it is more appropriate:
The issue isn't Mariner v Winter. It's Future v Past. Consider this:
- we play in the United States Development League
- the United States Development League feeds the United States Men's National Program
- the United States Men's National Program has decided that under Jurgen Klinsmann they will adopt a 4-3-3, attacking style of football
- therefore, the United States Development Program which works in partnership with the United States Development League (or Major League Soccer as you might know it) will have each and every Academy producing technically sound, 4-3-3 capable players
- Teams are making the jump to play 4-3-3 football. One team, SKC, after a few years of pain, leads the Eastern table
- attacking football kicks the ass of traditional football time and time again
We too had advice from Klinsmann. We thought about 4-3-3 football. We brought in Ajax experienced football men to implement it.
- but we also kept cushy jobs for former friends, allies and CSA friendly types.
- it was a bit of mess. Who was signing who? Words put in people's ears. You know, the same infighting that Anselmi has allowed to fester forever
- MLSE wasn't happy with short term results. So they wanted to make a change
- Did they seek out a replacement 4-3-3 minded individual? No
- They went back to an old English style which has obviously brought England all kinds of International success (sarcasm) but like the NHL trap, can ensure that you might win a few and not get blown out in the process
- Did they think that by making this change in vision they could make the playoffs? No. Not even the new coach is talking about playoffs
- So why did they make the change? So that you and I would think that 10 of 24 points is a sign of improvement and we would renew our tickets.
- oh and we still don't scout much at all in the United States, where these new technically sound players are going to be coming from.
- We have pushed one of the Ajax men out of the club entirely. Let's see what the offseason brings for BDK and TR
All the while ignoring the massive movement in the United States to develop players and systems that support 4-3-3. While more and more teams are getting on that bus, we are going back to the horse and buggy.
That my friends is the most concerning thing in all of this.
How long will this last? If the US are not successful in the next world cup, this whole way of thinking could be out the door.
However if successful, I don't think it'll be with the 4-3-3 that we are seeing in Spain/Netherlands.
the US just doesn't have the skilled players to produce that style of 4-3-3. MLS is a very tough/dirty but athletic league. Flare players will get cut down pretty quickly if they don't toughen up.
I think a hybrid of this Spain 4-3-3 along with the toughness of a german/english league is what the US will end up being successful with. Question is, can they/will they move this route or get stuck up in the old vs new argument you presented above.
Like the US national team, we need to get away from the old and start developing the new.
4-4-2 hoofball will get us results now, but will put us back in the near future. We need to develop our 4-3-3 hybrid now!
Last edited by jabbronies; 07-12-2012 at 08:55 AM.
after the transfer window i'll have a more accurate rating for the guy. this hoofball shit has to stop though. it's ugly, and it renders the midfield useless unless we're defending or watching JDG blast the ball over the net for the tenth straight time. props to the guy for trying, but in each of his attempts, even if it was on target the keeper would have it covered. seriously, watch the games if you think im making it up.
the possession and passing accuracy have taken a dramatic dip.
the quality we're playing has taken a dramatic dip.
we might as well be playing a weird ass greek/aussie 4-2-2-2 at this point.
^ like most things in life. If you are successful, folks will rush to copy it. Initial results are mixed but if SKC pull off the MLS Cup and US sees some success at International level over the next few years, you will have quite a strong movement behind it.
The big thing will be that if they can develop technical players over the next 5 years, along with coaches that adopt that philosophy, that in itself will change the game.
Really one game makes him Sir Alex now come on man. I know that we ended up scoring late to win and yeah it was nice and all. But overall this game is an anomaly for how good this team is. Enjoy it cause it won't lastyou didn't enjoy tonight's match very much, then, did you?!
You may be right.
One thing is for sure though...
No team in the world will ever set up their programs based on the style of play TFC is currently using. Not one.
Nobody plays this kind of extreme direct football and gets long term results anymore and nobody in their right mind would use it as a philosophy for building towards future success.
So why are we using it?
Simplest answer I can come up with: to try and eek out immediate results to avoid SSH fleeing in droves.
I'm sorry but the mentality Mariner expresses seems archaic...not to mention ugly to watch.
I can't wait to see who mariner brings in at the window. They'll be a real indication of where he is planning on taking this team. It'll tell us if he is abandoning the original plan or taking a slightly different approach as he claims he is. but my gut is we are a 4-4-2 team
Everyone seems pissed that he let go of Plata - but lets be honest, Plata has tapped out in Toronto. There is no one on the team that plays his style so there is no one here to teach him, a 20 year old kid, how to elevate his game to the next level. It's been obvious since the start of the season that the kid hasn't grown. A stint back home might do him well. Who mariner replaces him with will be telling. Will it be another plumber? I hope he tries and gets a matured version of Plata. but I think he is trying to get a winger who can defend strong on the ball. Plata wasn't strong enough plain and simple.
I actually liked Soolsma. Not sure why he was abandoned other than the fact Mariner needs true wingers who can man the flanks with speed as with any 4-4-2 system. Soolsma wasn't a track back kind of player. Too slow to move up and down the wings to attack and defend.
Also - was DeGuzman started on the wing last night? I saw him out there an awful lot! is he just filling the space until our new winger comes in?
You saw that right - JDG wide left, Silva wide right. There was points too where JDG was up top with Koevs and RJ laying back in the hole. But what I observed at times was either JDG or Silva would push forward and become a third attacker and the other would stay back with Frings and Dunfield.
Part of me wonders if the reversion to the hoofball we are playing is a stop gap solution to dig the team out of the rut. 4-3-3 was not working with the players we have/had, confidence throughout the team appeared to be shot. One thing under Mariner I will say so far, this team seems to be getting some belief back, where as under Winter they usually looked beaten when the walked on the pitch.
I do think this is all about getting positive results to help renewals, but part of me does wonder...
Of course shipping out Soolsma doesn't lend much credence to this theory
No one can predict the future. If enough people make guesses though someone's will turn out to be close enough that they'll, post hoc, be hailed as visionary. The silent evidence of all the other incorrect predictions will be ignored.
No one knows what tactical fetish will come into vogue over the remainder of this decade. At the elite level there's an argument that the Barca/Spain domination (and fetishization of that approach) will necessarily create a reaction designed to counter that. Whoever does it successfully first will be hailed as the next great tactical innovator.
Broadly speaking the long term formational trend, that's been happening since the game's inception, away from traditional forwards 1-1-8 --> 2-3-5 --> W-M --> 4-2-4 --> 4-3-3 --> 4-4-2 --> 4-5-1 --> "false 9" 4-6-0 (with all sorts of digression into 3-4-3, 5-3-2, and 5-4-1 along the way) will probably continue. 3-4-3 is seeing a rejuvenation in Italy and South America right now because the story of tactics is a story of REACTION to the dominate styles to find an advantage but, broadly speaking, the long term trend has always been to move players away from goal and ask them to be more adaptable two-way players. There's a whole notion that modern forwards will be expected to also play in midfield and defend and that the traditional "goal poacher" is obsolete.
In the above sense 4-4-2, in all its variations, is becoming an out of date formation at the elite level. (It still has its advocates like Sacchi though and it was another ITALIAN, not Englishman, that lead Ireland to their first major tournament in a decade, with a team of mostly lower tier pluggers, based on its defensive qualities. It is in vogue in the Bundesliga again after years of 5-3-2/3-5-2 dominating their national style.) How that percolates down to OUR level is another question. 4-4-2 remains a popular formation in MLS and is used by many of the best teams who play the most attractive football. KC's 4-3-3 has been CRITICIZED by the aesthetes for its reliance on physicality and athleticism and LACK of reliance on technique and possession tactics. Ironically, the coaches most vocally critical of the cagey, counter attacking, and physical nature of a lot of MLS play - Schmid and Kreis - prefer to line their team up in a diamond 4-4-2.
Regardless, you don't gain an advantage in tactics from copying what's successful. You gain an advantage from COUNTERING your opponent's tactics and formation and putting your players in the positions where they'll have the most cover defensively and be dangerous offensively. Using a combination of formation and movement the objective is to create "numbers up" situations in target areas of the pitch while denying space to opponents and creating space for your attackers.
Rigid adherence to 4-3-3 denys us that opportunity. Equally matched opponents adopted a simple a tactical approach that denied us space in front of their penalty area, forced us wide (which lead to all the aimless crossing) while they packed the penalty area, and countered into the space opened up when our fullbacks moved forward to support the attack (as it broke down outside the box and was forced wide). Two wingers - actual WINGERS: as in wide forwards; we should start calling them "Winters" to distinguish them from midfielders - and two attacking fullbacks meant our midfield was over run and couldn't cover all the space they were asked too. That's why our back line looked even worse than they already were. San Jose killed us using these tactics and Columbus and Chivas happily let us have all the ball we wanted while they conserved energy and happily walked out of BMO with all three points. Some people continue to confuse our advantage in possession in those games with meaningful tactical advantage.
Formation alone does not dicate style. Greek 4-5-1 is not the same thing as Spanish 4-5-1 that is popular in La Liga. How Paul Mariner plays 4-4-2 will be as dictated by the players available to him as by his long term vision of what TFC should look like.
To make another broad prediction: MLS will continue to evolve tactically and technically. North American players will get better as more resources are poured into early development throughout the continent and development focussed youth programs, even outside MLS academies, can sell a future as a professional rather than an immeadiate focus on winning (or a scholarship). That process will be long, slow, fitful, and prone to interruption and digressions. We'll evolve in our own way independent of what happens at the elite level in Europe. The evolution will happen independent of whatever program TFC adopts and we'll likely only play a small role in the story as it unfolds. That's not a bad thing and how we play TODAY, the tactics and formation we adopt right now, in no way preclude participation in the long term direction of MLS.
In fact, WINNING SOME GAMES might be the best thing. Winning is what gives players the confidence to try to play better football. "The worst team in the world" wasn't going to do much to contribute to MLS's style. If Paul Mariner can make TFC competitive in the league THAT is what will provide the base to go on and actually innovate once we find the right group of players, maybe even that one really great player like Schelleto, Morales, Donovan, or Rosales, that you can build a whole system around. I still have a feeling that's what Preki was trying to do in 2010 and our fan base couldn't handle it. Too many people preach patience themselves but will not accept ugly football now if it leads to better football later.
Asking Paul Mariner to play beautiful football today, with the group of players we have, is insane. Seriously: insane. It's asking him to repeat all the mistakes we just made for the last year and a half rather than find a solution that makes us something better than a laughing stock in our own league.
Pookie: you make a lot of great points about where TFC needs to start looking for talent and cultivating relationships if they're to be successful in an American league. You haven't simply bought in to the "academy will solve everything" pie-in-the-sky solution. Who do you think is better equipped to recognize that: someone with Paul Mariner's MLS background or someone with no first hand knowledge of MLS like Winter? I get that you want to lay part of the blame for the last year and half at Mariner's feet and include him in the FO mess that TFC has been since 2007. I don't understand it but I get it. But if you were out there looking for a new head coach why wouldn't Mariner be on the list? He was considered the next MLS assistant to get a coach for years. If he hadn't been inside TFC he'd be a candidate for the job or the open Portland position. I get that people want an established coach with bulletproof credentials but the reality is that person doesn't exist in MLS: the ones that do, other than Bob Bradley, already have jobs in the league. And Bradley's not known for pretty football! He got canned from the USA job because of it! Any appointment in any league is a gamble. Doubly so in a quickly maturing league without deep roots like MLS.
We're gambling on Mariner. Why don't we wait a while and find out how that turns out. There's really no other option and rushing to "Preki" him would be a waste.
Forza Mariner!
Forza 4-4-2!
Let's keep winning some games.
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