PRE/IN/POST GAME_TFC vs NYRB,Saturday,June 30. 7PM

[Pookie]

I can only compare their league performances, as Mariner hasn't had the opportunity to preside over any ACC/CCL games yet. I don't "want" to see anything. I gave Winter full marks for the teams CCL performance, and full marks for the team getting through the ACC. I also defended the man all last season.

For whatever reason, he couldn't hack it in league play. The split between his performance in the CCL and MLS was staggering.

- Scott

Agreed to some extent.

The reason that May's 3-2-2 results are interesting though is that the ACC games were played against MLS sides. Those weren't totals run up against FC Edmonton.

We are talking the 4th place Whitecaps. We are talking Montreal, the same side who put out the same roster that we are giving PM credit for a Win against. Seems somewhat disingenuous to discount AW's results if we are trying to determine if our team is progressing.

The way I see it, a healthy set of DPs contributed to a relative strong May under AW 3-2-2 and they have continued to contribute to PMs June 1-1-3.

Under both coaches we have points in over 70% of the matches that Frings plays in and when Danny scores we are something like 6-3-5. Without them, our roster is painfully lacking depth regardless of the system played.

[Oldtimer]

This is exactly where I'm at. I think Winter was clearly past it, but we've swung to the opposite end of the spectrum, one where I think it's neither beautiful to watch or capable of delivering results when it counts.

We're playing football designed for also-rans. Credit for the bounce and making the most of it, but when teams eventually get enough tape on Paul Mariners TFC, when they start to take us out of our game a bit, in my opinion we won't be effective. We better find something more to our game than we're showing currently.

We might get to a mediocre middling level, maybe even barely squeak into the playoffs next year, if Mariner continues in the job and with his plan. That will be it though.

The type of football TFC is playing right now was dated a decade ago. It's hopelessly out of date now. OK, TFC isn't Barcelona, I get that, we don't have that quality of player. However, the better MLS squads combine the physical side of MLS with on-the-ground technical passing play. KC is one of those (they play a combined physical and technical form of 4-3-3 that works really well in MLS). RSL is another (they play a more technical 4-1-2-1-2). TFC won't be able to play at their level.

[ryan]

We might get to a mediocre middling level, maybe even barely squeak into the playoffs next year, if Mariner continues in the job and with his plan. That will be it though.

The type of football TFC is playing right now was dated a decade ago. It's hopelessly out of date now. OK, TFC isn't Barcelona, I get that, we don't have that quality of player. However, the better MLS squads combine the physical side of MLS with on-the-ground technical passing play. KC is one of those (they play a combined physical and technical form of 4-3-3 that works really well in MLS). RSL is another (they play a more technical 4-1-2-1-2). TFC won't be able to play at their level.

Now it might be hard to judge cause it's their offseason, but playing Santos should be a good comparison. Outside of our handball meltdown, we played them very well and looked like we belonged. What will this direct style bring us to?

[Pookie]

I am talking the 1-9-0 picture. That one is pretty important. The massive goal differential this year is another major one.

To quote Mugatu "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills". I clearly describe in my first post that NYRB had a lot of possession and passed the ball around a lot, without generating great chances. They passed around the perimeter but had a hard time getting in. When we got the ball it was a long ball and more often than not we gained possession and took whatever chance was available... The stats would certainly say NYRB had the ball more and passed it around more, but what I saw was a pretty even game.

Talk about seeing what you want. You and a few others feel a need to point out possession and passing stats after I'd already said as much. I don't have a Paul Mariner agenda or anything, but the talk about Aron Winter is past silly at this point. If you don't want to see that we are plus in goal differential (a pretty important stat) since Mariner then you won't and if you did you'd say it doesn't matter. Is it going to take until Mariner doesn't get off to the worst start in league history next season for a reliable comparison? No. I have eyes. I can see that we are better now than we were.

Hey Chris,

Sometimes my Mariner focus gets mis-interpreted. I'm not wanting the guy to fail. I'm also not pining for some skewed vision of glory days under Winter.

The reason that I am trying to be objective here is to stand up to the MLSE spin that is going to wash over us as the wave of season ticket renewals approaches.

Winter's May record is important. 3-2-2 with a 0 goal differential. All earned against MLS teams. Mariner's June is equally important 1-1-3 with a +1. All earned against MLS teams.

Winter's end of 2011 run is also important (end of July onwards). 3-2-6 in MLS play with just 1 defeat in their last 7. Throw in CONCACAF and it is 8-4-7.

What's the common thread through all of that? Frings and Koevermans arrived in July. Frings and Koevermans played through the end of 2011. Frings and Koevermans were hurt through the early part of the season. Frings and Koevermans returned to health and to form again in May.

Seems like our record immediately improves when they are healthy and in form and suffers when they are not here.

To me, that shows that under both coaches we lacked depth. Which points to roster mis-management. Which will still exist while we have this silly idea that we can take 1/3 of our 30 man roster and fill it with local players while ignoring the entire North American talent pool. Which will still exist without a football mind at the top to put resources into scouting. And will still exist when both of these guys end their contracts in less than a season and a half.

That's why I keep pushing for a focus on immediate results and accoutability beyond Mariner.

[Oldtimer]

Now it might be hard to judge cause it's their offseason, but playing Santos should be a good comparison. Outside of our handball meltdown, we played them very well and looked like we belonged. What will this direct style bring us to?

We'll be out in the first round.

[Canary10]

We might get to a mediocre middling level, maybe even barely squeak into the playoffs next year, if Mariner continues in the job and with his plan. That will be it though.

The type of football TFC is playing right now was dated a decade ago. It's hopelessly out of date now. OK, TFC isn't Barcelona, I get that, we don't have that quality of player. However, the better MLS squads combine the physical side of MLS with on-the-ground technical passing play. KC is one of those (they play a combined physical and technical form of 4-3-3 that works really well in MLS). RSL is another (they play a more technical 4-1-2-1-2). TFC won't be able to play at their level.

Vancouver even plays 4-3-3 at times.

If Mariner is sticking with this system for the time being to really instill it before moving on to be more flexible in formation depending on the opponent, I'd be happier. I don't think that's the case though.

[Greatest Ripoff]

moving on to be more flexible in formation depending on the opponent. I don't think that's the case though.

This is what I would love to see. You are seeing lots of teams in MLS teams playing different styles and systems. The team should be playing what will give the best chance of 3 points for each match. And I am not surprised to see you bring this up, as this is something that Paul Lambert did very effectively with Norwich last season.

[Canary10]

This is what I would love to see. You are seeing lots of teams in MLS teams playing different styles and systems. The team should be playing what will give the best chance of 3 points for each match. And I am not surprised to see you bring this up, as this is something that Paul Lambert did very effectively with Norwich last season.

Don't bring up that name to me!! That bastard.

[Beach_Red]

Vancouver even plays 4-3-3 at times.

If Mariner is sticking with this system for the time being to really instill it before moving on to be more flexible in formation depending on the opponent, I'd be happier. I don't think that's the case though.

Well, I imagine when you take the coaching job at TFC you don't expect to be around very long so planning for "moving on" wouldn't likely be something that comes up much...

[Chris Wren]

Hey Chris,

Sometimes my Mariner focus gets mis-interpreted. I'm not wanting the guy to fail. I'm also not pining for some skewed vision of glory days under Winter.

The reason that I am trying to be objective here is to stand up to the MLSE spin that is going to wash over us as the wave of season ticket renewals approaches.

Winter's May record is important. 3-2-2 with a 0 goal differential. All earned against MLS teams. Mariner's June is equally important 1-1-3 with a +1. All earned against MLS teams.

Winter's end of 2011 run is also important (end of July onwards). 3-2-6 in MLS play with just 1 defeat in their last 7. Throw in CONCACAF and it is 8-4-7.

What's the common thread through all of that? Frings and Koevermans arrived in July. Frings and Koevermans played through the end of 2011. Frings and Koevermans were hurt through the early part of the season. Frings and Koevermans returned to health and to form again in May.

Seems like our record immediately improves when they are healthy and in form and suffers when they are not here.

To me, that shows that under both coaches we lacked depth. Which points to roster mis-management. Which will still exist while we have this silly idea that we can take 1/3 of our 30 man roster and fill it with local players while ignoring the entire North American talent pool. Which will still exist without a football mind at the top to put resources into scouting. And will still exist when both of these guys end their contracts in less than a season and a half.

That's why I keep pushing for a focus on immediate results and accoutability beyond Mariner.

We were getting worse rather than better. Last year feels like a long time ago. The CONCACAF run was more impressive to others than me. It was okay, but we were a .500 team who beat 3 good teams in that run. We didn't easily go through in that tournament, we scraped through each round. Winter's end run is not a long stretch and certainly doesn't wipe away his historically bad run this year.

I'm not an MLSE apologist or anything. I'm not saying everybody follow Mariner to greatness. What I am saying is he has turned our team around right now and anyone who wants to ignore that and keep talking about Winter when we were one of the worst teams in the history of MLS is trying to fool themselves. Our roster is like every other MLS roster, filled with mediocre talent. A coach has to work with what he has, not what he wishes he had.

Winter was playing Danny off the bench the last 2 games he coached when he was healthy. He was healthy most of the season. I remember him playing and being frustrated. Frings was a big loss, but doesn't excuse the disaster that was TFC.

The league is what matters most to me. The MLS is what we have failed at. Winning 3 or 4 consecutive Voyageur Cups is nice, but getting results in one competition while tanking in our league is not acceptable. Our league record is what got Winter fired, and rightfully so.

When will you be prepared to move on? Mariner is going to be here until the end of the year at least. If the team does well why shouldn't he continue as coach? Will this mean MLSE is pulling one over on us if this is the case?

[Oldtimer]

Most of the great football managers vary tactics depending on player availability and their opponents. For example, Sir Alex Ferguson has his team play a very different style in continental play than in the EPL. To his and his staff's credit, his players can adapt between the various styles. Any time you are fixed on one particular style, better coaches will adapt and counter your style, rendering it much less effective. If your style is very basic and simple, it's very easy for your players to learn, it's also easy to adapt against.

Of course, there are few great coaches in MLS, the best go elsewhere. However, there are a lot of solid coaches out there who (if they have the right players) can counter Mariner-style longball.

^ Chris, I'm not talking about Winter, either. He was overly technical and too inflexible. It's easy for most coaches to do better just by being mediocre. What we really need is something quite different from what we've had so far...

[BHTC Mike]

The type of football TFC is playing right now was dated a decade ago. It's hopelessly out of date now. OK, TFC isn't Barcelona, I get that, we don't have that quality of player. However, the better MLS squads combine the physical side of MLS with on-the-ground technical passing play. KC is one of those (they play a combined physical and technical form of 4-3-3 that works really well in MLS). RSL is another (they play a more technical 4-1-2-1-2). TFC won't be able to play at their level.

Point 1: As an INTERMEDIATE STEP to getting there maybe being a lot more direct RIGHT NOW and organizing the team in a way that protects an young, inexperienced, and not particularly technically savvy backline is a MORE THAN REASONABLE tactic.

Point 2: "Out of date a decade ago" fails to account for the TWO MOST RECENT MLS CUP WINNERS! Kreis' RSL have played the best football in the league, have a very good record doing it, AND WON NOTHING for the last three years. Schmid's Seattle have, IIRC, the best win percentage in the league in the three and bit years since they joined but have never won a playoff series. Their recent dip in form has seen him acknowledge that pretty football will have to be put on hold until results improve and their league form stabilizes.

How do you describe Arena's Galaxy team? They're not only the reigning champions they won back-to-back Supporter's Shields in the only two seasons where MLS played a balanced schedule. I'd describe them as a cagey, counterattacking team built on a solid defence first who like to exploit Donovan's pace in transition; they're almost what you'd call classically "Italian" in that sense. They've been criticized for it too: for all their glamorous attacking talent they don't like to take risks. And I wouldn't refer to it as a possession based style because they're not trying to actively draw out opponents by keeping possession. Instead, they've relied on a deep sitting defence and allowing opponents possession to leave space for their attackers to break into. It's not longball football but it's not possession football either.

Regardless, there's no one way to win. Styles go in and out of favour as teams innonvate, respond, and react to each other. Last decade, after Greece's Euro victory and Mourinho's Chelsea all we heard about was holding midfielders and "the Makelele role." People in Toronto tried to cast Carl fricken' Robinson as that sort of player and justify his team highest salary as a result! (I like Carl, but an elite holding mid is important to balance an attacking team and not as vital in a team that defends as a unit. It's a support role and not where I'd put most of my resources.) Trying to attribute success simply to tactics and systems misses whole parts of what makes a good manager successful!

Winning in MLS, as in any league, relies as much on:

1) Talent identification and getting the most out of the budget resources at your disposal by finding undervalued players, building them up, and keeping them happy and under contract. TFC have always been terrible at every part of that and that's the single biggest reason we've never been very good in the league.

2) Man management and motiviation. Yes, it's an intagible but it makes a difference. The best guys are capable of getting results out of weaker players by getting those players to believe in themselves. The RSL game excluded how many times did TFC take the field this year and LOOK DEFEATED within the first half an hour?

3) Putting those motivated, talented, and cheap enough that you can afford them players in a system that works for them! Not forcing a system based on an abstract ideology, recommended by a consultant, and influenced by the responses TO A MARKETING SURVEY! Letting a talented coach - jury hasn't even started deliberations on Mariner yet - to bring his own vision, experiment, and find out what that system is for the players he has access to is far more likely to achieve success IMHO.

Take a look through MLS and, I would argue, you'll find that what determines whether a manager is successful has as more to do points 1 and 2 than point 3. Style is almost an independent variable. It's only when you put the wrong players out there in a completely inappropriate style that "system" has a big influence. That's what we watched for the last year and a half in the league. It's happened before in places like Chivas, LA, and Chicago. Between successful teams style interaction can have a significant influence but there's just as much evidence that, particularly in knockout round football used to determine the championship, that cagey, defensive, counter attacking football still trumps possession football in those match-ups at the end of the season.

Regardless, and I'll just keep repeating this, it's WAY TOO EARLY to make any definitive judgements on the style Mariner adopts. Until he's had at least one opportunity to bring in the players he wants,* and probably one off season, we won't have much insight into how he sees TFC playing going forward. Yes, you can pretty confidently predict that it won't be a fluid 4-3-3 possession style based on building out of the back but, as you acknowledge, there's a lot of room between that and route one '70s longball. What we're seeing now is him taking the pieces he's inherited and trying to get some results in the short term. And that's a good thing because THIS TEAM NEEDED RESULTS. Plans are nice, academies are nice, and the VC/CCL has provided a nice counter-narrative but this team faced - FACES! - a cratering in their season ticket base if they can't start getting somewhat sustainable results in the league. Getting BACK to mediocre and at least winning more home games than they were losing would be a good first step!

*And no, this was not Mariner's team up 'til June. Yes, he had an influence but that was Aron Winter's team playing Aron Winter's football. Winter gets credit for the successes we did have - no one can take away the CCL run - but he has to own the league form that came along with that.

For a year and a half you talked endlessly about Jason Kreis needing two seasons to turn around RSL yet you're seemingly not even giving Mariner one transfer window? Kreis taking over at RSL in 2007 is FAR more comparable to Mariner taking over now. He was a guy from inside the organization who was tipped to take over a bad team part of the way into a season where they'd regressed (from an already bad position). He had no head coaching experience but was intimately familiar with MLS. His team stayed pretty bad for the rest of his first season but he started laying the groundwork for their improvement that first summer. The next year they were fairly mediocre but managed to sneak into the playoffs on the final day of the season and advance to a Conference Final. Even the next year after that they underachieved for most of the year, only got into the playoffs because of help from other teams, but went on to lift the Cup.

Is Mariner the next Kreis? Five games in I've got no clue. But neither does anyone else. Maybe he'll flame out completely and we'll start manager search and rebuild number 5435. But we're scoring goals and LEADING GAMES for the first in our league season so I'll take that for now and be happy about it. Questions about style can wait 'til later.

[BHTC Mike]

To me, that shows that under both coaches we lacked depth. Which points to roster mis-management. Which will still exist while we have this silly idea that we can take 1/3 of our 30 man roster and fill it with local players while ignoring the entire North American talent pool. Which will still exist without a football mind at the top to put resources into scouting. And will still exist when both of these guys end their contracts in less than a season and a half.

Honest question: who do you think is more likely to fix that though, Aron Winter or Paul Mariner? I wanted him here but if the newer CSN report is accurate and Mariner is opposed to the Nesta signing what does that indicate?

I want a President too but I also want a manager with a better knowledge of the North American talent pool and where MLS gets its players from. Yes, Mariner was supposed to play that role for Winter but he obviously wasn't the one with the final say on who to sign.

[Chris Wren]

Just a couple things, Chris. If you don't want to talk Winter, don't mention him. It had been like half a day since the last Winter comparison. And I understand. I'd rather talk about what I see now.

What I saw was some of the best chances, one by Lambe, RJ more than a couple times both had opportunities, a step on their defenders and chose to go well wide to the corner and wait. I can see the purpose in this if there's more than one defender to beat but that wasn't the case. Lambe's was moreso stopping dead at the top corner of the 18 to wait to pass. He had the man beat. That was his last (only(?)) chance of the match and he didn't show well after that.

Overcritical? Perhaps, but if we are playing this extremely opportunistic way then it's these chances lost that cost us 2pts.

It seems like a constant topic to me. I'm not checking post times, but half a day doesn't seem like a long time to me. It's not that I don't want to talk about him, I'm just amazed that others seem to be reminiscing about him.

I can't think of the instance you refer to, but on the whole I find that we are trying to go when we get the ball. We are getting down field in a hurry when we get the ball. Our crosses and play into the box seem more dangerous to me. this is just my opinion from watching.

[Oldtimer]

BHTC Mike,

I agree with you that issues of what "style" to play are misguided. I don't care if the team plays 4-3-3 or 4-5-1. What I care about is technical ability, and we've taken a big step backwards under Mariner. The reason why technical ability is important is that when your tactics are too simplistic, you will be found out. That will ultimately show up in the win/loss column.

Pookie and I have previously explained why we would not give Mariner tonnes of time, there is no need to go over it yet again here, you can check our previous posts on the subject.

In addition to the 3 factors for success that you've mentioned, cap management is important in any capped league. TFC has failed miserably in this regard, and that falls on Mariner and Cochrane.

[BHTC Mike]

Now it might be hard to judge cause it's their offseason, but playing Santos should be a good comparison. Outside of our handball meltdown, we played them very well and looked like we belonged. What will this direct style bring us to?

We'll be out in the first round.

Gah!!!!!111!!1!!1!!!!

YOU. CAN'T. PREDICT. THE. FUTURE.

NO ONE CAN.

You kept repeating the same thing about Preki because Chivas had gone out in the first round three times. By that logic Seattle should fire Schmid and start playing hoofball. Care to explain their lack of playoff form exclusively based on a systems reliant analysis?

It's playoffs. Luck and form matter. Seattle got humped by a counter attacking LA, an "old school MLS" Houston, and a fluent passing RSL over three separate seasons (even if they almost pulled off a miracle comeback against RSL).

There are different ways to win in this league.

[T-boy]

Credit where it's due....I liked our defensive shape in the second half. NYRB looked frustrated which was nice to see.

As for "phantom systems" and "immediate" turn arounds....please.

The turn around started prior to Winter's firing.

Also...if you gave Winter a striker like Koevermans, in form, and scoring every game, I think you might find that there would have been a few better results in the first 10 games.

The results look decent right now but that's the only thing that looks good.

There was a play near the end of the first half where we had a throw in the NYRB half. Koevermans asked Hall for the ball at his feet for the quick throw and Hall brushed him off...looked at Mariner who actually made the motion of a long throw. Ball was thrown long into the box on the head of one of 3 NYRB defenders waiting and out it went.

I promptly said fuck this and left to take a piss as I was so annoyed with that shit.

Once you resort to long throws at every opportunity it's equal to giving up in my books. You no longer care about tactics or brains or worrying your opponent. Once they know that every throw is going to be played long, into the box, they defend it easily every time. And when we decide to do it over and over it reeks of bush league play.

Mariner looks like a complete idiot on the touch line. He's up and screaming directions even when the play is at the northeast corner of the stadium. Not one player could hear him but it didn't stop him from ranting like a lunatic. He's a sideshow. LOL

But whatever...upwards and onwards. We're well on our way to being a juggernaut in this league. LOL

Was Koev's "out of shape", or was he not being played effectively by Winter?

You can argue that Koev's was out of form maybe, but were a lot of the players, who ALL seemed out of form, who are all in form, is that just a coincidence? Or has their change in form got to do with the change in management?

If it was one player, then maybe it was a change in form. But as its quite a few players, then its more than just coincidence in timing. Eckersley is now twice the players under Mariner as he was earlier in the season, RJ is playing extremely well now and was very inconsistent earlier in the season, Dunfield is now playing much better (although still limited by his own ability), Ashtone Morgan was so off form earlier in the season that Winter dropped him. He's another who is now playing well once again. Considence? I don't think so at all.

[Oldtimer]

Gah!!!!!111!!1!!1!!!!

YOU. CAN'T. PREDICT. THE. FUTURE.

NO ONE CAN.

You kept repeating the same thing about Preki because Chivas had gone out in the first round three times. By that logic Seattle should fire Schmid and start playing hoofball. Care to explain their lack of playoff form exclusively based on a systems reliant analysis?

It's playoffs. Luck and form matter. Seattle got humped by a counter attacking LA, an "old school MLS" Houston, and a fluent passing RSL over three separate seasons (even if they almost pulled off a miracle comeback against RSL).

There are different ways to win in this league.

For sure there are different ways to win.... and surprises can happen any time (most non-Italians had Germany down to win against Italy in the Euros), however people like to guess based on the odds. ryan asked me my opinion, I gave it. Surely there is no harm in predicting... and football being what it is we'll always be wrong sometimes.

People who guessed Germany would be in the Euro finals were wrong. People who guessed Spain were correct.

For all I know, Montreal could fire their coach, hire Preki, and win the MLS Cup. For all I know, Mariner could lead TFC on a tear and TFC wins both the Supporter's Shield and the MLS Cup as well as the CCL and Club World Cup. It's mathematically possible. But I wouldn't count on it. We can't predict the future... but we can give educated guesses that will usually be right.

[Beach_Red]

Gah!!!!!111!!1!!1!!!!

YOU. CAN'T. PREDICT. THE. FUTURE.

NO ONE CAN.

You kept repeating the same thing about Preki because Chivas had gone out in the first round three times. By that logic Seattle should fire Schmid and start playing hoofball. Care to explain their lack of playoff form exclusively based on a systems reliant analysis?

It's playoffs. Luck and form matter. Seattle got humped by a counter attacking LA, an "old school MLS" Houston, and a fluent passing RSL over three separate seasons (even if they almost pulled off a miracle comeback against RSL).

There are different ways to win in this league.

Luck and form, for sure. And attitude. To go back to a previous post of yours, TFC did often look defeated early in games - and often they were losing early on. Sometimes it was luck, but often it was the opposition's tactics to press early, get a lead and sit on it. From the start of this season teams had TFC figured out and by doing the same thing every game TFC made it easier on their opponents.

Many people here have actually said they would prefer to lose pretty rather than win ugly. I admit, I don't know soccer well enough to understand a lot of what gets debated in this forum, but I do know when a team is easily pushed around and not respected by its opposition and that's where TFC was at the beginning of this season. Right up until our own player said it was, "The worst team in the world." So, things are better now.

[Pookie]

Winter was playing Danny off the bench the last 2 games he coached when he was healthy. He was healthy most of the season. I remember him playing and being frustrated. Frings was a big loss, but doesn't excuse the disaster that was TFC.

Explanations aren't excuses. The team has no depth and puts out the youngest starting 11 in the league. That's with our 2 DPs. When they are hurt, there is little to offer via reinforcements. That's a result of roster mis-management and that goes to the top. When Frings and DK are missing, the team falters. When they are in, they have a chance.

Your recollection of DK's health/fitness is not accurate. Even with the minutes earned under Mariner, DK has played in just 65% of the minutes available.

The league is what matters most to me. The MLS is what we have failed at. Winning 3 or 4 consecutive Voyageur Cups is nice, but getting results in one competition while tanking in our league is not acceptable. Our league record is what got Winter fired, and rightfully so.

So why didn't it get Mariner, BDK, TR and EC fired as well?

When will you be prepared to move on? Mariner is going to be here until the end of the year at least. If the team does well why shouldn't he continue as coach? Will this mean MLSE is pulling one over on us if this is the case?

I've laid out 3 scenarios consistently:

RESULT: Mariner does poorly
OUTCOME: Anselmi goes. New president. He replaces Mariner with his choice

RESULT: Mariner does ok
OUTCOME: Anselmi goes. New president. He makes the decision on Mariner. I vote for stay based on desire for stability but really don't care

RESULT: Mariner pulls a miracle and makes playoffs
OUTCOME: Anselmi goes. New president. Mariner should by all rights keep his job

This team needs a scouting department. Not a make believe job for Nick Dasovic (former scout). It needs to scour NA for talent and not hide behind the flag of CDN Development. It needs a leader. Not a Director of Player Operations/Technical Development/Soccer Operations/Something else made up shared by 3 or more individuals. It needs a President that can make those organizational decisions and make resources available to see a vision through. We have none of that.

If you want to focus on a Win in Montreal (and curiously discount a win and a draw against the same side) as a reason for improvement, you are missing the big picture.

DK and TF are a band aid solution to mask organizational shortcomings and justify MLS leading high ticket prices. When they can contribute, they justify their higher salaries. Ironically, it was Winter that identified and signed them making them the only DPs to ever actually live up to their contracts.

[Pookie]

Honest question: who do you think is more likely to fix that though, Aron Winter or Paul Mariner? I wanted him here but if the newer CSN report is accurate and Mariner is opposed to the Nesta signing what does that indicate?

I want a President too but I also want a manager with a better knowledge of the North American talent pool and where MLS gets its players from. Yes, Mariner was supposed to play that role for Winter but he obviously wasn't the one with the final say on who to sign.

I want a President. Period.

I then want that President to make resources available to whomever he selects as a manager to be able to identify talent from NA and on the International Stage.

I then want that President to select a Manager who can put together a roster, based on all inputs, that is effective year in and year out and goes into each year with the expectation of winning trophies.

I have no faith that either Mariner or Winter are that guy. Mainly because I don't know if either has the structure that can support them.

For example, if Mariner is still dealing with infighting between BDK, TR, EC and who knows who else, then he stands little chance. If Mariner still has more scouts in the GTA than he has in all of North America then he stands little chance. If he has no money available to change that, he stands little chance. If Mariner is still under pressure from CSA-leaning types within and connected to the organization and TFC-Academy brochure writers to promote from within, he stands little chance. If he has to draw a 30 man roster and chooses to stock 1/3 of it with virtually un-untradeable assets given MLS Domestic Quota Rule, he stands little chance.

I'm less concerned with his desire to hoof it out than I am all of these BIG organizational issues which still exist regardless of the fact we beat the Impact again.

[ryan]

Gah!!!!!111!!1!!1!!!!

YOU. CAN'T. PREDICT. THE. FUTURE.

NO ONE CAN.

You kept repeating the same thing about Preki because Chivas had gone out in the first round three times. By that logic Seattle should fire Schmid and start playing hoofball. Care to explain their lack of playoff form exclusively based on a systems reliant analysis?

It's playoffs. Luck and form matter. Seattle got humped by a counter attacking LA, an "old school MLS" Houston, and a fluent passing RSL over three separate seasons (even if they almost pulled off a miracle comeback against RSL).

There are different ways to win in this league.

Aye but we're not talking about "this league" I'm talking about CCL, which is a different beast.

[ManUtd4ever]

I am talking the 1-9-0 picture. That one is pretty important. The massive goal differential this year is another major one.

To quote Mugatu "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills". I clearly describe in my first post that NYRB had a lot of possession and passed the ball around a lot, without generating great chances. They passed around the perimeter but had a hard time getting in. When we got the ball it was a long ball and more often than not we gained possession and took whatever chance was available... The stats would certainly say NYRB had the ball more and passed it around more, but what I saw was a pretty even game.

Talk about seeing what you want. You and a few others feel a need to point out possession and passing stats after I'd already said as much. I don't have a Paul Mariner agenda or anything, but the talk about Aron Winter is past silly at this point. If you don't want to see that we are plus in goal differential (a pretty important stat) since Mariner then you won't and if you did you'd say it doesn't matter. Is it going to take until Mariner doesn't get off to the worst start in league history next season for a reliable comparison? No. I have eyes. I can see that we are better now than we were.

I couldn't agree more.

I'd also note that aside from the record being one loss in our last six games, we've also led every game except the one we lost and the Red Bulls, where we answered quickly.

More chances, more pressure. The reason we have less possession is because we're pushing high; most of that is the other team passing it around their own end and trying to get out.

It has been better. I'm not disparaging 4-3-3 possession football in that, as it is attractive; and I thought Winter was a nice guy. But this style works better against teams in MLS which typically deploy full-field pressure, often marking man-to-man.

We're not just carving out earlier chances, they're also better; low crosses from close to the endline likely to cause problems, instead of deep balls from far out from the sideline to the one forward in a 4-3-3. It's all tactically better suited to MLS; he's betting our guys are better in individual matchups, then playing direct football.

I don't know what role Mariner had in Winter's demise and objectively, it has nothing to do with whether they're better. To me, they're obviously a much more competitive team.

I don't see how it's an objective fact that our style of play is worse, when it's garnering better results, which are what ultimately matter?

I still think it's highly questionable as to whether Mariner's stewardship and tactics are good enough to be a viable future for this team, but I don't think there's any question of whether they've been better than Winter's thus far.

- Scott

Bang on.

[joeyjones]

Agreed to some extent.

The reason that May's 3-2-2 results are interesting though is that the ACC games were played against MLS sides. Those weren't totals run up against FC Edmonton.

Under both coaches we have points in over 70% of the matches that Frings plays in and when Danny scores we are something like 6-3-5. Without them, our roster is painfully lacking depth regardless of the system played.

not sure you should be including the CCL matches in your "AW was 3-2-2 in May" analysis. 2 leg playoffs are played differently than one off league games. and, FTR, a team doesn't get points in 2 leg playoffs..

[Greatest Ripoff]

Was Koev's "out of shape", or was he not being played effectively by Winter?

If he was being misused by Winter then how did he score 8 goals in 10 games under him last season? I think Koeverman's recently goal scoring has very little to do with who is coaching him and more has to do with him rounding into form. If you listen to any of Koeverman's interviews from the past few weeks he even admits this himself and says he goes through good and poor streaks when it comes to scoring.

[Greatest Ripoff]

I want a President. Period.

I then want that President to make resources available to whomever he selects as a manager to be able to identify talent from NA and on the International Stage.

I then want that President to select a Manager who can put together a roster, based on all inputs, that is effective year in and year out and goes into each year with the expectation of winning trophies.

I have no faith that either Mariner or Winter are that guy.

This is exactly how I feel. The president should also be using MLSE financial resources to hire the best possible youth coaches to develop players. There is no point in spending $20 million on an academy to have Jim Brennan coach there.

[T-boy]

If he was being misused by Winter then how did he score 8 goals in 10 games under him last season? I think Koeverman's recently goal scoring has very little to do with who is coaching him and more has to do with him rounding into form. If you listen to any of Koeverman's interviews from the past few weeks he even admits this himself and says he goes through good and poor streaks when it comes to scoring.

Agreed, but my argument was that a lot of other players are ALSO now performing a lot better now that Winter has left and Mariner is manager. One player can be an individual case, but a lot of players improving form is a pattern.

[Pookie]

not sure you should be including the CCL matches in your "AW was 3-2-2 in May" analysis. 2 leg playoffs are played differently than one off league games. and, FTR, a team doesn't get points in 2 leg playoffs..

Well, I'm not sure why anyone would discount them if you are trying to make a conclusion of improved play particularly when the results came against the same teams.

Played differently? Pretty sure that they didn't use 2 balls and the net result was to come away with more goals on aggregate than the other side over the time frame played.

I guess I'm to believe that PM's result against Montreal was different than AW's result against Montreal about a month ago. Makes complete sense.

[ag futbol]

Vancouver even plays 4-3-3 at times.

If Mariner is sticking with this system for the time being to really instill it before moving on to be more flexible in formation depending on the opponent, I'd be happier. I don't think that's the case though.

And that sort of brings us back to problem 1a with TFC: talent identification.

Edit: I was going to get into details but it was just too depressing. It really doesn't matter where you look on the field, they either have more talent (defense) or more depth. But they still suck balls when it counts *zing!*

[Pookie]

Agreed, but my argument was that a lot of other players are ALSO now performing a lot better now that Winter has left and Mariner is manager. One player can be an individual case, but a lot of players improving form is a pattern.

Which "a lot of players" ?

What was their issue before and what is their specific improvement under Mariner?