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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    As I said in the game thread - I'm not convinced this team is going to be any better under Mariner. This wasn't a calculated move to give this team the best chance to win - it was a panicky reshuffling after the abject failure Winter had for the first ten games of the seson. Mariner probably should have gone as well, for his part in it, but he didn't.

    But regardless of the reasons, and regardless of what I think of the people who made the decision, he's our manager now, and I'm going to give him a reasonable period of time to prove himself.

    If others want to fan their tailfeathers and strut around telling people how they knew his stewardship would be a failure, then that's your prerogative, and it vaguely reminds me of someone I used to know. Mariner is trying to do what he can in a terrible situation, with fools above him. I have sympathy for that.

    - Scott
    It has little to do with "strutting feathers" and a lot more to do with recognizing that Mariner was a part of the abject failure that cost Winter his job. You've admitted as much yourself.

    Some may even believe that Mariner contributed to the 1-9 both by his player input and the likely notion that he didn't buy in to what they were trying to in the first place. Now he's benefitted from that and you call my dislike of the whole situation and lack of sympathy for Mariner "strutting feathers"?

    Sorry but I disagree wholeheartedly.

    Mariner is worse than Winter because he helped get him fired and took the fucking guys job. Yes...that's a sign of a completely dysfunctional front office but I also see it as a total lack of character on Mariner's part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T-boy View Post
    Ok I will acquiesce....we played shit. I guess you all want me to HATE this team!

    Sorry for being optimistic and seeing some good things in the second half of this game. Clearly I had my rose tinted glasses on today.

    sometimes coming on this forum after the game makes me want to kill myself a little bit. You guys take any enthusiasm I have and destroy it!
    Man ,nobody wants yo to hate this team,we are crazy in love with TFC,but you should take your rose tinted glasses and call spade a spade.

    Tonight game was one of the worst game to watch,long ball after long ball and hope something might happens,this game was bad carbon copy of Prekiball.Under Preki at least our defense was functioning and we were creating same amount of chances with hoof balls as we did tonight.

    The fact that Mariner was hired after 18 months sitting in FO and doing fuck all,because players he signed were never able to play any other formation than 442 and now it looks to me they can't even play that one aether,but we are suppose to give him time,fine he will get his time and we will get some points,but this hoof ball is not watchable for my standards.

    if they keep booting the ball I will stop going to the games with my son,he does not deserve to watch this at his young age,he might get wrong idea what soccer is all about.
    Great love does not exist without joy and without great suffering ,that's why One club is worth only as much as its fans !


  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    As I said in the game thread - I'm not convinced this team is going to be any better under Mariner. This wasn't a calculated move to give this team the best chance to win - it was a panicky reshuffling after the abject failure Winter had for the first ten games of the seson. Mariner probably should have gone as well, for his part in it, but he didn't.

    But regardless of the reasons, and regardless of what I think of the people who made the decision, he's our manager now, and I'm going to give him a reasonable period of time to prove himself.

    If others want to fan their tailfeathers and strut around telling people how they knew his stewardship would be a failure, then that's your prerogative, and it vaguely reminds me of someone I used to know. Mariner is trying to do what he can in a terrible situation, with fools above him. I have sympathy for that.

    - Scott
    Shakes, I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with expecting results provided the focus doesn't become "Firing Mariner" and overlooking Tom Anselmi.

    To allot the new coach time to makes things works clearly takes pressure off the one that most of us feel needs to be removed from this team in order for it to improve.

    I am of the opinion that keeping the focus on the results, collective results through 5+ seasons, is what we need to be doing. Not granting slack or leeway or removing pressure.

    You can have this focus on the immediate results without the need to fire Mariner. Anselmi becomes the focus. Replace him and then the new guy can evaluate whether Mariner is the one to coach.

  4. #64
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    This was some funny shit from ag futbol:

    2013 SSH promotion: have you ever wanted to coach TFC? Well now you can, each pair of season tickets now includes the opportunity to coach the reds for one half of football! Managers will subsequently be fired at half-time and replaced with a new manager who "has a system"-> "doesn't have a system" -> "is a players coach" - > "disclipinarian"

    TFC! TFC! TFC!
    I'm going to tweet something about that.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
    This team looked worse than most of the line ups that Winter has fielded....but I will give Mariner some time to work on things. Why wasn't Soolsma playing, is he injured? For once, I thought that Silva had a pretty good game.
    Soolsma is too skilled for Mariners likes,he has to work on his long ball passes if he want to get back in starting 11.
    Great love does not exist without joy and without great suffering ,that's why One club is worth only as much as its fans !


  6. #66
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    1st half was fucking brutal. No shape at the back and were lucky not to be 4 down after 15 minutes.
    No shape, no clue, basic football errors lie Johnson taking the ball off Lambe on a breakaway despite being called off by Reggie as he was 3 days offside.

    For the first time, I gave up- we went outside at HT to have a drink on the patio , and didn't feel the need to come back in toil the 75th.

    Twittershere seemed to think we were decent 2nd half but from what I saw we were poor.

    #fireanselmi

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-boy View Post
    I find it hilarious that the same people who gave Winter a season and a half, are only giving Mariner ONE game to judge him! Sure, Winter would have got a result in this one, yeah....right!
    what exactly has changed besides the coaches?.... he now has the players he wants and felt Winter should use? ..his players don't forget... and he had to stab Winter in the back..to still be here..or he never liked him and plotted this from the start, ..it's the same team and the same owners.........i support the players,....but the rest have lost me.....watch and learn,...not even sure I want OR deserve another 3 or so years of promises, let's rebuild everybody,...just keep paying these high prices and in a couple of ears we might be average ....btw montreal 4 seattle 1....they have been in the league how long?......i am so sick of being at the bottom and the laughing stock of the league , full of excuses
    ALL HELL'S BROKEN LOOSEhttp://gfycat.com/SharpKindArrowana

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post
    It has little to do with "strutting feathers" and a lot more to do with recognizing that Mariner was a part of the abject failure that cost Winter his job. You've admitted as much yourself.

    Some may even believe that Mariner contributed to the 1-9 both by his player input and the likely notion that he didn't buy in to what they were trying to in the first place. Now he's benefitted from that and you call my dislike of the whole situation and lack of sympathy for Mariner "strutting feathers"?

    Sorry but I disagree wholeheartedly.

    Mariner is worse than Winter because he helped get him fired and took the fucking guys job. Yes...that's a sign of a completely dysfunctional front office but I also see it as a total lack of character on Mariner's part.
    Assistants routinely get shuffled into the head job on an interim basis after the coach gets fired. In virtually every sport. If you don't have access to the guy you want, or don't know who you want, the interim and easy thing to do is hand the reins to an assistant. I don't see how it reflects on Mariners character at all. The same thing has happened at our own club before, with Daso and Cummins taking over the head job on an interim basis.

    In the absence of any evidence that Mariner intentionally tried to torpedo Winter's regime, I'm not going to assume that, either. He was hired to do a job, and I will assume he's innocent until proven guilty, of doing that job in good faith.

    But yes, I agree he should have gone. Not for intentionally doing anything, but for his failure along with the rest of them.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    Again, it is colossally stupid to start a huge change in philosophy & direction, hire a coach & assistant coach who believe in a 4-3-3, possession-based & attacking style, "long term plan and vision" etc etc bullshit, and also try to sign & fire & sign a ton of players to hopefully play that style -- but at the same time hire a glorified scout & shadow coach who doesn't believe in any of that shit.


    Then you dump the first guys, AND their formation & philosophy after 1 1/2 year, and install the shadow coach. And then it's stupid for that guy to take over at mid-season and bring in a huge change in formation when you know you have a very difficult stretch of games coming up with no time to practice. I'm afraid that Mariner will turn out to be about as thick-headed as Winter, just in a different direction -- "that's the way I roll, either you like it or you don't."

    I think this team will play very poorly at least for a couple of months. If there are some positive surprises, great.

    Personally, I was somewhere in middle: more patient with Winter than many others, but I had essentially given up on him a few months ago. However, I really didn't want Anselmi & Co. to be the ones to decide to fire Winter, or the ones to decide who would replace him. I have absolutely no confidence that we are now headed in the right direction.
    This is a great post.. Your right none of this makes any sense..

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Shakes, I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with expecting results provided the focus doesn't become "Firing Mariner" and overlooking Tom Anselmi.

    To allot the new coach time to makes things works clearly takes pressure off the one that most of us feel needs to be removed from this team in order for it to improve.

    I am of the opinion that keeping the focus on the results, collective results through 5+ seasons, is what we need to be doing. Not granting slack or leeway or removing pressure.

    You can have this focus on the immediate results without the need to fire Mariner. Anselmi becomes the focus. Replace him and then the new guy can evaluate whether Mariner is the one to coach.
    As I've said all along, I consider any opinion I have of Mariner to be completely separate from what I think of Anselmi et al. I think we should be pushing full bore to get Anselmi, and the rest of them dismissed right now.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    Assistants routinely get shuffled into the head job on an interim basis after the coach gets fired. In virtually every sport. If you don't have access to the guy you want, or don't know who you want, the interim and easy thing to do is hand the reins to an assistant. I don't see how it reflects on Mariners character at all. The same thing has happened at our own club before, with Daso and Cummins taking over the head job on an interim basis.

    In the absence of any evidence that Mariner intentionally tried to torpedo Winter's regime, I'm not going to assume that, either. He was hired to do a job, and I will assume he's innocent until proven guilty, of doing that job in good faith.

    But yes, I agree he should have gone. Not for intentionally doing anything, but for his failure along with the rest of them.

    - Scott
    That's why it's so unbelievably stupid to hire an "assistant" (actually glorified scout) who massively disagrees with the basis system and philosophy of the head coach.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    i'll give benefit of doubt for now. clear that the team was getting used to new formation in first half, and playing against one of best teams in MLS, a loss was going to be likely result. once TFC switched to 4-4-2 diamond, things got better. unlucky to not to bury one of chances.
    the chances were there, so offence isn't total shambles. defence, another story, esp on set pieces

    for Houston game, i'd like to see this (and assuming Cann is out for a while)

    --------Kocic
    Hall-Eck-Henry-Morgan
    --------JDG
    ---Avia----Frings
    --------Silva
    -Koevermans-Johnson

    I'm going to give Mariner few more games before making a judgement
    I cannot believe this wasn't the line-up. Luckily I was visiting Pa (Happy early Fathers day to all Fathers) and missed it. Did I read they played Dunfield??? WTF
    Bless you guys for the updates cuz I am glad to not watch this one. sob sob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    As I said in the game thread - I'm not convinced this team is going to be any better under Mariner. This wasn't a calculated move to give this team the best chance to win - it was a panicky reshuffling after the abject failure Winter had for the first ten games of the seson. Mariner probably should have gone as well, for his part in it, but he didn't.

    But regardless of the reasons, and regardless of what I think of the people who made the decision, he's our manager now, and I'm going to give him a reasonable period of time to prove himself.

    If others want to fan their tailfeathers and strut around telling people how they knew his stewardship would be a failure, then that's your prerogative, and it vaguely reminds me of someone I used to know. Mariner is trying to do what he can in a terrible situation, with fools above him. I have sympathy for that.

    - Scott
    Ditto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    Assistants routinely get shuffled into the head job on an interim basis after the coach gets fired. In virtually every sport. If you don't have access to the guy you want, or don't know who you want, the interim and easy thing to do is hand the reins to an assistant. I don't see how it reflects on Mariners character at all. The same thing has happened at our own club before, with Daso and Cummins taking over the head job on an interim basis.

    In the absence of any evidence that Mariner intentionally tried to torpedo Winter's regime, I'm not going to assume that, either. He was hired to do a job, and I will assume he's innocent until proven guilty, of doing that job in good faith.

    But yes, I agree he should have gone. Not for intentionally doing anything, but for his failure along with the rest of them.

    - Scott
    In that case DeKlark or god forbid Brennan should be coaches and not players development manager.

    I have info from players agent that Mariner and KOCKhrane screw up few players signings that Winter wanted to see in our team,and instead we got players like Aceval,Lambe ....
    Great love does not exist without joy and without great suffering ,that's why One club is worth only as much as its fans !


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    IMO 442 cannot be effectivelly played with the roster we have. IF it is decided that this new/next/decision/direction/change/necessary direction/new course (all terms that MLSE have used to denote firing/appointing new coaching staff) Tommy Boy thinks we should move towards, we will need wholesale player change to play that style properly. And, I guess, we will have to change the academy system to reflect this new direction.

    Let's face it - it's hard not to be cynical.
    Last edited by DOMIN8R; 06-17-2012 at 07:09 AM.
    "Failure simply isn't an option at this stage. TFC pushed its chips to the middle of the table when it splurged on Bradley and Defoe and reinforced its bet by making savvy acquisitions elsewhere. This collection of players is capable of delivering on the promises made during the close season. There are no more excuses available for TFC. Only success will continue the process of atoning for the past and establishing a higher standard for the future." FOX Sports

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    That's why it's so unbelievably stupid to hire an "assistant" (actually glorified scout) who massively disagrees with the basis system and philosophy of the head coach.
    There's truth to this, but that falls on Anselmi's head. He's the one who keeps bringing these people together, and watching them burn.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post
    Mariner is worse than Winter because he helped get him fired and took the fucking guys job. Yes...that's a sign of a completely dysfunctional front office but I also see it as a total lack of character on Mariner's part.
    Couldn't agree more. I feel like this team has taken a huge step back.

    Tonight they had no width and were easily broken up in the midfield. When the KC back four had the ball Toronto did nothing to pressure them and allowed KC to bring the ball into Toronto's end. And when Toronto did have the ball they were very wasteful in possession. They either made a poor pass or kicked it long to no one. They made it way to easy for KC tonight. The players looked lost or maybe just not up to the task.

    How the hell did Dunfield play 90 minutes? Why was Hall starting at left back?

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    Assistants routinely get shuffled into the head job on an interim basis after the coach gets fired. In virtually every sport. If you don't have access to the guy you want, or don't know who you want, the interim and easy thing to do is hand the reins to an assistant. I don't see how it reflects on Mariners character at all. The same thing has happened at our own club before, with Daso and Cummins taking over the head job on an interim basis.

    In the absence of any evidence that Mariner intentionally tried to torpedo Winter's regime, I'm not going to assume that, either. He was hired to do a job, and I will assume he's innocent until proven guilty, of doing that job in good faith.

    But yes, I agree he should have gone. Not for intentionally doing anything, but for his failure along with the rest of them.

    - Scott

    I see what you mean about the interim coach thing. But as for the question of "intention" I'd have to say that Mariner was hired to compliment the vision and staff that TFC decided to go with. If he doesn't like a possession based or 4-3-3 team than he shouldn't have taken the job to begin with. And if he thought the team should be building in a different way he should have left the club long ago. Instead he decided to lay in wait. He did NOTHING to help this team build towards their goal. Did he bring in one player to compliment the 4-3-3?

    That's pretty deliberate and intentional to me. Short of players or former staff members coming out and telling us about the nature of the disagreements between the "MLS pragmatists" and the new staff we will never know for sure whether he was deliberately an asshole, incompetent at player acquisition or just arrogant in believing his vision was more important than the one that the whole fucking club was redesigned around.

    For me, whichever it is, makes him look like a douche.

    Not to mention that I find his brand of football completely disgusting in every way. LOL

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    There's truth to this, but that falls on Anselmi's head. He's the one who keeps bringing these people together, and watching them burn.

    - Scott
    Agree and that's why we should concentrate our anger on ANSELMI and get him OUT asap.
    Great love does not exist without joy and without great suffering ,that's why One club is worth only as much as its fans !


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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    Assistants routinely get shuffled into the head job on an interim basis after the coach gets fired.
    Thing is, Mariner was never mentioned as the interim coach or was he an assistant coach before hand. He is the Steve Kean of TFC

    .

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    That sucks. Soolsma is one of our best players. What the hell was Dunny doing there starting, with JDG on the bench?

    Quote Originally Posted by denime View Post
    Soolsma is too skilled for Mariners likes,he has to work on his long ball passes if he want to get back in starting 11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by denime View Post
    Agree and that's why we should concentrate our anger on ANSELMI and get him OUT asap.
    I agree completely. Like I said several days ago in the "grand announcement" thread, I think with the new owners coming in, that we have a small window of opportunity to make our complaints known, and get them attended to (as some board reshuffling is probably going to happen anyway).

    I think all of the SGs should be gearing up to make our voices heard later this summer.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by denime View Post
    In that case DeKlark or god forbid Brennan should be coaches and not players development manager.

    I have info from players agent that Mariner and KOCKhrane screw up few players signings that Winter wanted to see in our team,and instead we got players like Aceval,Lambe ....
    I wonder who players Winter and DeKlerk wanted to bring instead of Lambe, Aceval etc.?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC07 View Post
    I wonder who players Winter and DeKlerk wanted to bring instead of Lambe, Aceval etc.?
    Don't remember the names,but as far i remember that was in off season and one of the reasons why we did not sign players until feb/mar.
    Great love does not exist without joy and without great suffering ,that's why One club is worth only as much as its fans !


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    Seriously, FUCK them(FO) I was happy that we went with an attractive attacking style of football. I was good with giving Winter at least 2yrs, and then these stupid assholes pull the rug OUT! Fuck them!

    4-3-3 attack all the way! I hope my beloved reds lose every fucking game from here on in!

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    Quote Originally Posted by flamehawk View Post
    "game was sensational" are we sure he has water in his bottle and not Vodka.
    Great love does not exist without joy and without great suffering ,that's why One club is worth only as much as its fans !


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    Wow. Media training or manipulation in full effect. Paul was only missing the pom poms. Were the Spin Doctors playing half-time?
    Last edited by DOMIN8R; 06-16-2012 at 10:52 PM.
    "Failure simply isn't an option at this stage. TFC pushed its chips to the middle of the table when it splurged on Bradley and Defoe and reinforced its bet by making savvy acquisitions elsewhere. This collection of players is capable of delivering on the promises made during the close season. There are no more excuses available for TFC. Only success will continue the process of atoning for the past and establishing a higher standard for the future." FOX Sports

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    TFC came out flat and disorganized after a lengthy layoff and a coaching change, and they were dominated for the opening 30 minutes.

    As the game wore on though, I thought TFC slowly started to take control of the match, particularly in the second half after Mariner switched to a 4-3-1-2.

    Based on the number of quality scoring chances generated by both sides throughout 90 minutes, I thought the match was fairly even. Unfortunately, TFC couldn't capitalize on several golden opportunities to get back in the game.

    I guess I am in the minority, but I saw signs of encouragement on the pitch tonight, and I am curious to see how our club performs once they become more acclimated with Mariner's tactical approach over the next few games.
    Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 06-16-2012 at 11:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Dude, I don't mean to rain on your parade. This is a supporters website after all.

    The point here is that by extending all this fluffy stuff about "new systems" or "time to gel" or looking for "improvement" you simply take the focus off of Tom Anselmi and the mess that he has created.

    Do I expect TFC to win? Hell no. They have a roster management issue. From mis-managing the North American Quota Rule, to the youngest starting 11 in the game (at the 3rd most expensive) they are clearly not capable of competing with other teams in the MLS.

    Do I deserve a well run organization in exchange for my season ticket money? Hell yes.

    Anselmi claims to be hands off and if true, we clearly need somebody who is more hands on to run this thing.
    This pretty much says it. From the day this team started they've never hired anyone who has any idea how to build an MLS roster.

 

 

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