^^ Wow. Some actual productive discussion, mutual respect and pleasantries on this board lately.
Wonder why that is?
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^^ Wow. Some actual productive discussion, mutual respect and pleasantries on this board lately.
Wonder why that is?
Moderator
What's done is done. Let's not take digs at people who aren't here to reply, please.Originally Posted by Chevy
^^ Wow. Some actual productive discussion, mutual respect and pleasantries on this board lately.
Wonder why that is?
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
Moderator
But the obvious conterpoint to that is - if you haven't found the players for your lunchpail "foundation" going forward, why are you adding expensive, veteran garnish in the form of Frings and Koevermans already? Those aren't long term acquisitions, they are 2-3 year rentals who will likely retire after that.
I supported Winter all last season while a small, vocal group here had already made up their mind that he was a bust, because I agreed with the idea that he needed time to put his stamp on the roster, and bring in some players who were more suited to the system he wanted to play. However, all along I said that this year would be the season for results to start showing - no more five year plans, in a league that clearly doesn't need them. And after 10 games, the verdict was pretty clearly in on this team, as it stands now.
Anselmi and the other execs need to take responsibility for their failings, but so does Winter. This was his team.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
The logical counter to your counterpoint is that he needed to bring in vets schooled in his dogma in order to a) help disseminate his preachings, and b) bring about results.
It seems that even though he was mandated with bringing in a culture and overhauling the team, he must have been aware that he was going to have to try and bring in results at the same time.
Ergo, Koevermans and Frings for a couple of years + the academy.
Moderator
I don't think he was mandated with anything but results in a reasonable timeframe - how he chose to do that was his own design.
We aren't talking about the NHL, where the only way to create a decent team is patiently over several years, through drafting. He made a bunch of significant roster moves last season, then went 1-9 this season - our one win coming against a similarly poor side.
If he couldn't do all he wanted to, due to interference by those above him, I'd love to hear it as it would definitely colour my opinion greatly. But in the absence of that (aside from the reshuffle the week before our last game, which was pretty clearly an MLSE move), I think it's fair that he take responsibility for this historic low.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
Listening to the scrum interviews today I think I can pin point why Winter wasn't getting results from his players - He wasn't vocal enough. Some players need someone constantly yelling at them, be it positive or negative - but they just need a voice in their ear. reporters took notice that today's practice was much more lively and that Mariner seemed more vocal than what is the norm.
DeClerk was Winters voice - but I think he was too negative. Did Winter finally open his mouth in the last couple weeks and got a couple results out of the team? Too little too late obviously. It would suck if that was all that we needed this whole time...just a mouth during practice and at the games.
His own design, yes, sure, but the assignment was bring in a philosophy and impart it on the senior club. I'm not sure where the Academy fit in initially - whether there was always the intent or this was part of Winter's plan.
But since you brought it up, what do you think is a reasonable time frame to have the academy up, producing graduates, and the senior side producing results / challenging for the playoffs ?
18 months ?
Last edited by TOBOR !; 06-13-2012 at 08:01 AM.
The process could take at least five years, which is why a modified approach was required for the first team in the interim.
I agree with Shakes in that 18 months is a reasonable time in which to expect results for the first team though. Perhaps the expectation of a contending club within that timeframe is overly optimistic, but 7 wins in 44 games and setting records of futility for consecutive losses/negative goal differential isn't remotely close to acceptable.
It would have been ideal if Winter decided to remain with the organization to oversee the Academy along with Rongen, but ultimately, he wasn't the right choice as a manager.
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 06-12-2012 at 11:02 PM.
Alright. I agree that the overall futility is probably what prompted Aron's premature dismissal, but you could hardly blame him for not staying to run the academy.
Moderator
Having the Academy up and producing usable assets is a longer term prospect, though. Obviously he isn't going to chance the face of Canadian youth soccer in 18 months. But his first priority, like every other team in the league, is to field a competitive first team.
The mandate was never to take several more years to build an infrastructure throughout the entire organization, and then we can judge him if talented kids start coming out of the system. That will be a five year plan, if not more, and that's assuming it ever bears fruit at all. In the meantime, the expectation was to field a competitive team through the same means as every other franchise - international scouting, domestic drafting, and clever DP signings.
It looked promising to me last year, but you can't argue with 0-9.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
Moderator
I don't blame him at all. Who wants to stay on at a lesser post in the organization he used to manage? It'd be like your girlfriend breaking up with you, but asking you to stay on as her financial advisor. You just want to get out of there.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
As I've eluded to before, I suspect Winter was very much an office GM, not a field level guy, until he was told to be near the end. DeGuzman said in an early interview that he "doesn't say much" which is NEVER something you want to hear from a player about their manager.
The "hands off" GM may be why it reminded Gordon of Gullit in LA. Doesn't mean Winter didn't have some decent technical coaching abilities and ideas, but it's not the type of upfront leadership that gung-ho Americans and underwhelming other players expect. Like you said, they need a voice in their ears ... and occasionally a boot up their asses.
Last edited by jloome; 06-12-2012 at 11:41 PM.
jekyll and hyde much? winter was too nice and BDK was too apeshit?
i think the issue with a lot of players today is that they shouldnt need to be yelled at, you shouldnt need someone in your face constantly to get results. alternately, as a coach you dont need to raise your voice to be intense (see: jake the snake roberts, that guy could cut a terrifying promo without ever changing his tone). i think winter's particular form of communication was lost on a lot of people, and i say that specifcally in terms of speaking with the media. it could've been completely different with the players and FO behind the scenes. it could've been the language barrier, it could've been his personality, but he always seemed to be so.. what's the word im looking for.. reasonable? calm?
he came across as a combination of the two, even when we were winning in the CCL or the VC. go back and watch his interviews, you wouldnt be able to tell the difference in his demeanor between a win and a loss. he was always so laid back. i think it can translate to a lack of intensity or even passion, and i think it can look like he didn't feel the urgency to start picking up points. if you had another coach up there vocalizing the exact same things he was (ex: staying the course, individual mistakes, etc) it would've been taken a lot differently.
Last edited by __wowza; 06-13-2012 at 07:47 AM.
[pedantry]alluded[/pedantry]
a ha ha heh he hoo.. ha
Agreed on 18 months as an acceptable time frame, at least to see progress after a rebuild.
No rebuild needed? Then 5-6 games tops.
I've thought about it some more, and am ready to evaluate it fairly. While I would give Winter as an organizational leader a much higher rating, as a coach for TFC (which is the question), I would give him a 2.
The football looked nice at times, but the results weren't. Reasons for downgrading are:
* inflexibility in formation and tactics
* inability to adjust when others teams do (related to inflexibility)
* inability to motivate players
* questionable selections
* repeated use of formations/tactics/players that didn't work, not learning from those situations
* results
Why I didn't downgrade him to zero:
* he didn't seem to have control over all of the players brought in/not brought in
* some of the fault belongs on the players, they've admitted as much
* good CCL run
All-in-all a big disappointment in the end. I think he's a decent man, but was in over his head as coach of a first team in MLS. Maybe with a few years experience, he might have improved (and he might do much better outside of MLS), but the prognosis wasn't good. Time to cut the losses and move on. I hope he finds a suitable job for him.
This isn't true of American athletes in other sports so maybe it's something that will change if soccer becomes more mainstream at a younger level.
For now it may be something that European coaches really aren't used to, athletes who grew up not as part of the 'glamour' sport in their school or community.
I agree with basically every Shakes said.
He may have been doing wonders for the academy, but that doesn't excuse a complete absence of results from the first team.
Well technically speaking, semi finals of the CCL is considered a result and I believe that was with the first team.
How many premiership managers would survive a 1-9 start (essentially a relegation sentence) simply because they made it to the semi-finals of the Champions League?
And even comparing UEFA CL to CONCACAF CL is hugely flattering to Winter.
^ it is perplexing isn't it? His non MLS record is something like 12-3-7 (have to look that up)
Considering too that he just qualified for CCL again and won the week before he was canned.
That said, the MLS record is horrible. Not defending him at all. I just think that Anselmi should have been fired before we made the decision to remove Winter... a decision which ultimately removed one of the more forward thinking technical football minds from our club entirely, Academy included.
This is not a step forward for the club.
I think he needed more time with what he was doing to make it work in the MLS is all. Truly only had 1 year as he got some of the players he wanted at the Summer transfer window of 2011. Prior to that he was really just cleaning up with the old roster.
Then again, fucking team Mariner was cockblocking the players he wanted to get themselves what we have today.
I simply can't rate Winter, because the whole thing is a clusterbomb of political cuntfuckery. Winter didn't get a fair shake as far as I'm concerned, and neither is Mariner going to, but I'm going to immediately join his hate parade because his expedited failure is the only possibility for getting Anselmi the fuck out. Sooner this fails the better.
Moderator
I agree with this. Anselmi should have been the first change made, so a new face could decide where to go from here. Firing Winter to replace him with Mariner does nothing but tread water at best, and blow up what little "system" we had built at worst. So far, it looks like the latter.
Mariner's appointment was never a forward move - just a warm body to fill the vacant spot until Anselmi could figure out what to do next.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
Surely you're not comparing MLS to EPL ?... and CCL to ECL ?
Premiership clubs don't generally implement 3 or 5 year rebuilding plans - as is (was) our case. Premiership clubs that drop down to League One or Two may do this, but now we're not talking about the same thing.
Last edited by TOBOR !; 06-18-2012 at 07:33 AM.
Yes.
You've expressed my thoughts much more eloquently than even I could myself.
What's the proof of this? I haven't seen anything indicating this happened.
In my opinion, Winter just doesn't have a scouting network to begin with. He's brought in a few guys here and there, but none of them are saviors. Not that I'm absolving Mariner of his performance, if anything this just underscores that he found a bunch of players that can't cut it.
Let's look at the big picture here: Aron Winter was given an absolute TON of roster flexibility. I don't think many teams in MLS if they hired a new coach would have allowed for that much turnover. Managers are always expected to use a mix of what they've got and what they need. I think Winter was given more than enough leeway to change the team.
Last edited by ag futbol; 06-18-2012 at 08:28 AM.
Are managers expected to have their own scouting networks ? That they bring with them from club to club ? Or does each club have it's own network ?
did we ever even have a scouting network? i thought the FO just took turns playing FIFA12.
i just wish we had the whole story on how the fuck the roster was organized. is it so hard for a manager to step up and say something like "i had a few people i wanted to bring in, the owners felt differently".
i do know that gameday decisions were his, he took the full brunt of benching JDG. when the press grilled him on why he was benching a player costing us a million dollars, he was very frank that JDG wasn't performing. he didn't pass the buck and say "some people thought it would straighten him out"
I gave him 5 stars because he brought football totally to TFC! Before this we played a variation of soccer, now we play football. Basically, I think we needed to keep him longer, so that we could have won the Concacaf playoffs.
Playoffs! Totally! But it sounds like you're not as fond of Soccer as much as Football. Perhaps you should've chose "Football Mom"?
I'll miss some things about Winter. That Concacaf run will be a highlight for quite some time.
Last edited by Fort York Redcoat; 06-22-2012 at 07:00 AM.
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