View Poll Results: How do you feel Winter has performed as a coach for TFC?

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  • 5 Star

    7 7.22%
  • 4 Star

    8 8.25%
  • 3 Star

    42 43.30%
  • 2 Star

    23 23.71%
  • 1 Star

    17 17.53%
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  1. #1
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    Question Rate Winter: Overall

    PLEASE READ BEFORE RATING!
    (it'll make everything a hell of a lot easier)

    Alright, so Winter's gone. For that reason, we're going to be doing an overall thread (due to the lack of action I was going to do a combination May/June anyways). There's one new category added here, so be mindful of that. Each category gets a specific rating, from 5 (being the highest) to 1 (being the lowest). To calculate the average rating, just add your total up and divide by 5, if it's got a decimal point at the end of it, you can round either up or down based on the simple question "did Winter perform up to your expectations during his time here". Afterward, you post your total rating on the poll, from 5 - 1.

    here's the criteria:

    TACTICS
    how did you feel about the tactical choices made?
    what about his starters? subs? formation?

    RESULTS

    at the end of the day, how did we do in terms of results? did we tie games we should've lost? lost games we should've won? etc.

    EFFICIENCY

    how effective was the coach in utilizing the players he has?
    did he play some players out of position? did he have a reason to?

    COMMUNICATION
    how effective was the coach in explaining his outlook and choices in the paper / on torontofc.ca / on TFCtv / in post match interviews?

    GOALS
    did winter instill the "attractive, attack minded" game he said he was going to?
    were the trades and tactics he employed reflective of that?

    TRADES & MISC
    were the trades made productive or counter-productive?
    did he fly off the handle at get a 4 game ban?
    was he making eyes at your wife/girlfriend/same-sex partner?

    A general guideline: This is a final assessment. Unlike the other threads, a low approval rating will deem his time here a failure, a higher rating will deem his time here as a success. Please note that this is not a comparison of Winter against our other coaches. For added information, clicking on each month will bring you to that month's thread. For context, let's take a look at how winter performed here on a month by month breakdown, as always, red denotes a cup victory:

    77.61% APRIL 2011: T/T/T/L/T/W/L: 4 points out of a possible 18
    46.60% MAY 2011: W/W/L/T/T/T/L: 5 points out of a possible 15
    63.55% JUNE 2011:T/T/T/L/L/W: 6 points out of a possible 18
    83.44% JULY 2011:W/L/L/L/L/W/T: 1 point out of a possible 15
    *3.21 / Rating: C AUGUST 2011: W/T/W/W/L/L/T 5 points out of a possible 12
    *3.76 / Rating: B SEPT 2011:W/L/W/W/L/T 6 points out of a possible 9
    *3.95 / Rating: B+ OCTOBER 2011: T/T/W/T 3 points out of a possible 9
    *2.97 / Rating: D+ MARCH 2012: T/W/L/L/T 0 points out of a possible 6
    *1.72 / Rating: F APRIL 2012: L/L/L/L/L 0 points out of a possible 12

  2. #2
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    In all honesty, Winter should have two separate polls; MLS and CCL.

    In MLS play, I rate him a 1 star.

    In VC/CCL play, I rate him a 4 star.

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    Nah. Not going to do this.

    The cook was preparing a nice meal, only to have the fat manager demand to be served now.

    Rather than wait a bit, he's sent the lad home and told the dishwasher to finish it.

    Quality food (and everything else) takes time.
    a ha ha heh he hoo.. ha

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    For overall contribution and vision to the club: 4

    For tactics and player selection: 2

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    The other question is... was Mariner not officially the person in charge of player acquisition? That's what his job description said he did.

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    30/114 possibe points. And he was even trending downwards!

    I'd give him a zero if I could.
    Last edited by Just One Man; 06-11-2012 at 01:55 PM.

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    Somehow it feels unfair to kick a man when he's down.

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    ... or judging him on an unfinished work :

    Students - you have an hour to complete the exam - GO !

    Alright students, hand in your papers

    But that was never an hour ! That was only 15 minutes !

    Too bad... oh, look, you only answered two questions correctly - you fail.
    a ha ha heh he hoo.. ha

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOBOR THE GREAT ! View Post
    Nah. Not going to do this.

    The cook was preparing a nice meal, only to have the fat manager demand to be served now.

    Rather than wait a bit, he's sent the lad home and told the dishwasher to finish it.

    Quality food (and everything else) takes time.
    I'm glad I don't eat at your restaurant - I'd have starved to death by now!

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    Quote Originally Posted by T-boy View Post
    I'm glad I don't eat at your restaurant - I'd have starved to death by now!
    That's OK - we don't serve your kind anyway !
    a ha ha heh he hoo.. ha

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    Yeah yeah! You're not getting your tip!

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    3 Stars

    Aron Winter came in to do two jobs. One was to instill a football structure in this organization that is professional-grade, from first-team to academy. The second was to acquire talent capable of playing in Major League Soccer, and building a team that could make the playoffs.

    In the first regard, Aron Winter did a 5-star job. He oversaw the creation of a true Toronto FC academy; he changed the culture of the team and gave this team a formation/style to call their own. As a man, he was a gentlemen, and was always professional.

    In the second regard, Aron Winter did a 1-star job. He did not do the job of a first-team head coach and create success. His attempt to change the entirety of MLS in an attempt to find success for Toronto FC was not received by MLS, and as such, he failed to win here - 7 wins in 44 games is not acceptable.

    So, if you take into account the GM-type job he did, and the head coach-type job he did, I give him 3 stars. A perfectly average coach. He was never a detriment to this team, but he was also never a real asset. He did the job he was supposed to do, in giving this club an identity, but couldn't make it stick.

    In years time, however, I anticipate that the groundwork Aron Winter put in in Toronto will be looked back at fondly, if future successes come from his work with the academy/4-3-3/positive football, etc.

    Also, you can't fault the guy, he took us to the CCL semi-finals and won 2 Canadian championships. Technically he's our most successful coach.

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    I find it impossible to vote objectively on this. We know too little about why things didn't work out, up to and including the day-to-day politics of the job. Maybe he was as bad as his league record; maybe he was as better-than-average as his cup record.

    Who knows?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOBOR THE GREAT ! View Post
    Nah. Not going to do this.

    The cook was preparing a nice meal, only to have the fat manager demand to be served now.

    Rather than wait a bit, he's sent the lad home and told the dishwasher to finish it.

    Quality food (and everything else) takes time.
    Haha this could be fun. Because we could look at it like a line cook was brought in to do the job of an executive chef.

    We've all had slow-cooked meals before and know what it takes, what are the ingredients and how it's supposed to look (taste, smell etc ...).

    He butchered the meat terribly, is using all the wrong ingredients and isn't even following a recipe. The meal smells disgusting and letting it simmer any longer isn't going to make it taste any better. The verdict is in - the meal sucks and we shouldn't be serving it to anyone. Thanks for coming out 'chef' but you are in over your head. Be thankful Gordon Ramsay wasn't your boss!

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    Talked to an old family friend from Holland yesterday. He's been watching and playing for over 50 years..just saying he knows the game and he knows and has watched Winter.

    First thing he said to me was "ya, that was never going to work out, Aron is too nice of a guy to be a manager"

    After reading JMO's article it only brings it home even more...Winter was a soft, warm manager at TFC. It's a fiery game and men need to be led by a leader.

    It's fine to be the arm around the shoulder type manager if you also have the hair dryer in your back pocket, not sure Winter did.
    Last edited by Pigfynn; 06-11-2012 at 04:30 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pigfynn View Post
    Talked to an old family friend from Holland yesterday. He's been watching and playing for over 50 years..just saying he knows the game and he knows and has watched Winter.

    First thing he said to me was "ya, that was never going to work out, Aron is too nice of a guy to be a manager"

    After reading JMO's article it only brings it home even more...Winter was a soft, warm manager at TFC. It's a fiery game and men need to be led by a leader.

    It's fine to be the arm around the shoulder type manager if you also have the hair dryer in your back pocket, not sure Winter did.
    This!. Like I said Winter was the best technical manager we've had, but the motivation aspect I do believe mariner is the stronger of the two.

    But to me losing winter as coach is not the real loss, the real loss is not having winter involved in the development of TFC's football....period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spark View Post
    Haha this could be fun. Because we could look at it like a line cook was brought in to do the job of an executive chef.

    We've all had slow-cooked meals before and know what it takes, what are the ingredients and how it's supposed to look (taste, smell etc ...).

    He butchered the meat terribly, is using all the wrong ingredients and isn't even following a recipe. The meal smells disgusting and letting it simmer any longer isn't going to make it taste any better. The verdict is in - the meal sucks and we shouldn't be serving it to anyone. Thanks for coming out 'chef' but you are in over your head. Be thankful Gordon Ramsay wasn't your boss!
    Sparky, there's quite a few line chefs who win Hell's Kitchen, you know!

    And to keep the analogy going: Chef Winter was working under someone with no food background, running a restaurant. He took orders from Flava Flav, who told everyone he would bring the flavour this year but the end result was simply distasteful.

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    Like every other guy who tried to manage here, he never had a chance.

    Maybe the new ownership will change things, if not maybe the first question that should be asked of all future managers is, "How well do you work in dysfunctional organizations?" some people can get more done under those circumstances than others...

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOBOR THE GREAT ! View Post
    ... or judging him on an unfinished work :

    Students - you have an hour to complete the exam - GO !

    Alright students, hand in your papers

    But that was never an hour ! That was only 15 minutes !

    Too bad... oh, look, you only answered two questions correctly - you fail.

    It seemed fair. You were answering all the wrong questions and writing all the answers on your desk.

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    I'm a firm believer in Likert items over 1-5 ratings.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    I find it impossible to vote objectively on this. We know too little about why things didn't work out, up to and including the day-to-day politics of the job. Maybe he was as bad as his league record; maybe he was as better-than-average as his cup record.

    Who knows?
    I'm in the same spot. Nice guy, classy exit - not much more I can say about him this season. I thought what he was building looked promising last season, and appeared to be bearing fruit during our pre-season CCL run - but it all went to shit after that.

    I don't see another way it could end when your team starts the season 1-9. That's the kind of start you might expect during the first year of a complete teardown, but that isn't where we were supposed to be by anyone's reckoning. While I think Anselmi and Co. need to finally share in the consequences of this team's repeated failures, I don't think Winter is absolved of guilt either.

    For the two V-Cups, the CCL run, and the league impotence, he earns a 2/5 from me. Without knowledge of backroom politics, all I can judge are the results - and those results are worth about a 4/10 to me.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Close but no cigar. It's easy to play like Ajax when you have a much bigger budget than most of the teams in your division. He had to make some adjustments on the defensive side of things to reflect the fact he was working with something closer to an Excelsior Rotterdam setup in salary budget and personel terms. He wasn't able to so it's time to move on.

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    I think it was Prizby that I've seen making the point about no manager in MLS, upon being given three years, failing to make the playoffs and I don't think Winter would have been the first.

    If we look at RSL, they were crap, to start, under Jason Kreis. Staying with this comparison: after they had properly established themselves as a solid side in MLS and after their defeat in the CCL final, I believe they struggled to get up for regular season matches. I think that we had the same struggles and with a side not nearly as cohesive, having only half of a season and one pre-season together.

    For me, this was premature and depressing.

    I'll give Winter a 3, overall.
    Last edited by JuliquE; 06-12-2012 at 06:38 AM.

  24. #24
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    ^ Kreis never would have happened here in Toronto. Season tickets need to be sold, and fans here get impatient.

    That being said, I don't think we had Jason Kreis II here, more like Ruud Gullit II. It happens all the time in MLS that foreign coaches don't work out. Those that do, tend to have played in the league or have been an assistant here (hello, Paul Mariner? Let's hope so).

    This league is like no other. Trades, allocations, the draft, the parity, the mix of superstars and relatively poor players, the roster restrictions and especially the salary cap make it hard for any foreign coach to succeed. You can't just buy players to get yourself out of trouble.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 06-12-2012 at 06:56 AM.

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    ^ Yes, a Kreis never would have happened here because it starts with ownership. The vision for RSL started with the owner (after a few years in the league learning it) and he implemented it himself. Kreis was not a stranger to him and he hired a GM who was not a coach-in-waiting, but another part of the management team.

    What TFC really needs is someone who can work well in dysfunctional organizations and that usually means someone with a lot of experience.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    ^ Kreis never would have happened here in Toronto. Season tickets need to be sold, and fans here get impatient.

    That being said, I don't think we had Jason Kreis II here, more like Ruud Gullit II. It happens all the time in MLS that foreign coaches don't work out. Those that do, tend to have played in the league or have been an assistant here (hello, Paul Mariner? Let's hope so).

    This league is like no other. Trades, allocations, the draft, the parity, the mix of superstars and relatively poor players, the roster restrictions and especially the salary cap make it hard for any foreign coach to succeed. You can't just buy players to get yourself out of trouble.
    I don't think it's so much to do with just buying the players you want so much as it is even being able to find them.

    How many US / Canadian trained players are there familiar with Winter's system ?

    No shortage of them in Holland or throughout Europe, methinks. However, when roster restrictions demand that you find the bulk of your squad locally, there's not much selection.

    Money doesn't really enter into it, save for the one thing it can do - be used to build the school where a constant supply of such players can be groomed.
    a ha ha heh he hoo.. ha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    ^ Kreis never would have happened here in Toronto. Season tickets need to be sold, and fans here get impatient.

    That being said, I don't think we had Jason Kreis II here, more like Ruud Gullit II. It happens all the time in MLS that foreign coaches don't work out. Those that do, tend to have played in the league or have been an assistant here (hello, Paul Mariner? Let's hope so).

    This league is like no other. Trades, allocations, the draft, the parity, the mix of superstars and relatively poor players, the roster restrictions and especially the salary cap make it hard for any foreign coach to succeed. You can't just buy players to get yourself out of trouble.
    My comparing the two sets of circumstances was not to say that our situation was the exact same in every way. Rather, I was highlighting a couple very specific parallels: crap, to start -- post CCL slump.

    I went on to underline the fact that our boys have had far less time together than RSL's, which would make sense out of the fact that we struggled a bit more than they did.

    Second half of last season was really when the bulk of our team was formed. After this, we had the pre-season, a deep run in CCL, followed by a nine game losing streak (many could have been wins/draws; we weren't playing horribly and it seemed more of a mental issue). I would have been curious to see where we would have wound up, at the season's end and had a close eye on next season's first five or so results.
    Last edited by JuliquE; 06-12-2012 at 09:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliquE View Post
    My comparing the two sets of circumstances was not to say that our situation was the exact same in every way. Rather, I was highlighting a couple very specific parallels: crap, to start -- post CCL slump.
    I disagree - there is no comparison to RSL whatsoever. Their post CCL 'slump' didn't have two losses on the bounce until three months after their loss. They finished the season with 53 points. They started crap under Kreis because he was appointed in May and had no prep or preseason (unlike Winter). He also made solid trades/moves within six-eight months that built the core of his team that remains to this day.
    Last edited by spark; 06-12-2012 at 11:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spark View Post
    I disagree - there is no comparison to RSL whatsoever. Their post CCL 'slump' didn't have two losses on the bounce until three months after their loss. They finished the season with 53 points. They started crap under Kreis because he was appointed in May and had no prep or preseason (unlike Winter). He also made solid trades/moves within six-eight months that built the core of his team that remains to this day.
    Bit of a stretch, that.

    I think you're splitting hairs; Winter's pre-season was not arranged how he'd have wanted it -- he was hamstrung by JDG's contract -- brought in with issues brewing between the team's key/star player and the FO -- he was tasked to do a lot more than come in and sort out the first team, which divided his attention. I point all this out because I, too, can justify this and that about the circumstances during his tenure at the helm. They were crap to start, which was all I was pointing out and I believe Kreis, himself, made a point about how the motivation was in the locker room, following their CCL final defeat.

    I had already acknowledged that our situation was worse and provided a bit of context to explain that. I'm not claiming to know all about how things should have gone, but I do believe that what I've pointed out deserves some consideration.. consideration lost on MLSE, I'm afraid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliquE View Post
    ot arranged how he'd have wanted it -- he was hamstrung by JDG's contract -- brought in with issues brewing between the team's key/star player and the FO -- he was tasked to do a lot more than come in and sort out the first team, which divided his attention. I point all this out because I, too, can justify this and that about the circumstances during his tenure at the helm. They were crap to start, which was all I was pointing out and I believe Kreis, himself, made a point about how the motivation was in the locker room, following their CCL final defeat.

    I had already acknowledged that our situation was worse and provided a bit of context to explain that. I'm not claiming to know all about how things should have gone, but I do believe that what I've pointed out deserves some consideration.. consideration lost on MLSE, I'm afraid.
    Ah sorry I missed your first post and jumped to conclusions - totally got you point wrong. My bad!

 

 

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