Per is a fair player, but we have a lot of his type already with us (Silva, Avila, Johnson) - I'd rather TFC be looking for a proper backup to Koev's right now - as Johnson certainly isn't the answer when Koev's isn't fit.Originally Posted by Phil
Per is a fair player, but we have a lot of his type already with us (Silva, Avila, Johnson) - I'd rather TFC be looking for a proper backup to Koev's right now - as Johnson certainly isn't the answer when Koev's isn't fit.
Funny, in your next post (above) you just used my argument why a 4-4-2 would be a bad fit with the club we have right now.
I'm just nervous. Players are trying to learn a new system again, according to fringe on TFC tv.
That's worriesome. I really don't know why some tweaks to the system isn't all that's needed rather than something totally new.
I almost have a hard time picturing this team playing a 4-4-2 now... especially with the players we have on our roster.
That being said, maybe it's best to drop some attack-minded players for some defensive orientated ones. Unfortunately, there are few bulldogs on this team and a lot of lightweights.
Agreed, we need a guy who is at the next level. All these players (with the exception of Johnson) are not first choice IMO.
Last edited by ag futbol; 06-12-2012 at 03:41 PM.
I dont think he's saying that TFC should play 4-4-2, he's defending the 4-4-2 in general against the people who have been saying that 4-4-2 = kick and run
Right, thanks. I read it the wrong way.
That's fine, as long as the new system isn't rocket science, unlike the last system! Winter's system was just too complicated! Listening to Rongen and De Klerk talk about the system made it sounds ludicrously complicated! Number 5 plays to number 3, but the number 6 has to drop back to make room for number 8. But number 3 can't pass the ball to number 8, he has to play the ball to number 11 or number 2. Number 2 then drops back to centre back and number 9 fill in the gap etc etc etc! I was honestly lost when they were describing the system, so number wonder the players were having a hard time learning it!
I think that is what a few of the experts were also saying about Winter's system - he was trying to get below par (MLS) players to play a far superior game.
If Mariner wants to play a more simple game, then I'm VERY happy about that! So, I'm not worried if the players are learning something new now.
^^ I have to agree. The players are more than likely just getting back to basics in practice now as opposed to learning a complex new system.
Ha, that's funny. I was thinking the exact same thing when they showed that at halftime of one of the games on Goal TV. They also used Barcelona players as their reference points for each position. Don't think their intent was to make it sound even more confusing....
It was like they were saying "the Mauritanian* national rugby team WILL be fantastic as long as they play exactly like the All Blacks"!
*trying to think of the most random and least Rugby playing nation I can!
Well...having listened to Mariner's interview with Jeff Blair I can say with confidence that 4-3-3 is gone. The team will play 4-4-2 or some form of it. (4-2-4 or 4-5-1).
And if I hear him say that the players dictate the formation any more I'm gonna make a two stick of it. lol
"I'm a players coach" says Mariner.
Guess that implies that Winter wasn't.
Whatever. He'd better get results NOW. As in next game and every game thereafter. Because, if he doesn't, AND we're watching the Terry Dunfields of the world hoof the ball around the pitch with the skill of a 12 year old boy I may have to heckle Mariner incessantly. LOL
As for the talk about the "complicated" nature of the 4-3-3. It's just football guys. It's football that anybody can learn. The problem with "some" of our players is that they have to unlearn a brand of football that is so simple (and mindless) that is easy to revert back to.
Many of our players have been trained in thinking that kicking the ball away under even the smallest bit of pressure is "safe".
Those same players (and most supporters too) have been trained to believe that when they make a bad play, like giving the ball away cheaply, it's most important to hustle and get that ball back. Yes...that's a well and good (and the bare minimum of what should be expected) but the far greater important thing to do is not give the ball away cheaply in the first place. And that only come with movement and understanding your options. This is part of what the possession game teaches you.
That's why JDG looks so bad sometimes. Yes...he's lost a lot of the form that made him great in his Deportivo days, but there are many games where he gives the ball away in situations where, if he had teammates that understood spacing and movement, he'd normally play the ball off simply.
And it doesn't surprise me that Mariner is likely of the "kick it away and figure it out later" mentality. He's of an old school of football that died 30 years ago and gets zero results in anything meaningful these days. Not to mention that players like Henry, Morgan, Eckersley, Plata, Avila, Silva and any other young players in the senior squad will likely regress playing mindless football.
But who cares...as long as we get a couple wins right? LOL
Last edited by v00d00daddy; 06-13-2012 at 03:30 PM.
Good post.
I was reading this thinking what is so complex about the idea of maintaining a shape, maintaining possession and covering for a teammate when they press forward?
There is a growing school of thought amongst the U6-U8 group that you don't need to teach positions. Simply teach them to be aware and maintain a "shape." Simply look to keep the ball and if you notice that you have no one behind the ball, take a space in behind it. If you notice that no one is pressing forward, press forward.
At the older ages it requires technical skill and fitness and I get that if you have been taught to never venture much outside of your "zone" it can be somewhat challenging. That said, the basic concept is the same concept that we use to teach the concept of triangles. Maintain the shape. Maintain options. If you notice that the shape has been lost, move in to correct it.
For me, if Mariner is reverting back to an MLS pragmatic approach we better be getting results in the very next game. There is no "learning" here. No technical skill requirement and in fact, if the 3rd largest payroll in the league... that he signed... isn't skilled enough to play a pragmatic MLS game then we have a bigger issue.
Good luck Paul. Welcome to the show.
Kocic said it in his interview they will play 4-4-2,it slipped away from him.I'm sure players were asked not to talk about formations.
Frings said in his,they are learning new system/formation.
I have no problem with 442 as long it is not Preki ball.
---------Koev-------??-------------
----Avila-------------------Soolsma
------------------De Guzman---------
------------Frings---------------------
Morgan--Cann---Henry--Eckersley
----------------------------------------
----------------Kocic-------------------
Lets just bring our wingers a little more withdrawn into the midfield, cutting into the box making runs to bring attention of Danny Koevermans so that he can get into those prime places to clean up and score those 'garbage goals' as i've seen them be labelled. If the balls at his feet he's unlikely to miss unless the Goalkeeper is able to reposition himself from the original shot or where the winger was originally with the ball to cover Koevermans.
Avila I was able to slot into the left winger or left midfield role, granted I don't think Avila will lend much defensively covering the left side from attackers so Morgan will have to really step up back there and watch his runs going forward not to get burned. Avila showed qualities of a solid wing effort in what was I believe the Real Salt Lake (away) game where he scored a goal three shots, and one on target. He has a decent long shot from outside the box to create trouble for the other sides goalkeeper. Just to list a few stats from that Real Salt Lake match i'm referencing...
- 18 Successful Passes
- 4 Unsuccesful Passes
- 10 Tackled and Possesion Lost
So he can be pushed off the ball fairly easily, which is a downside but even Frings was knocked off the ball 13 times in this game, it happens.
Soolsma can take his winger on and beat him, we know he can send those direct crosses onto Koevermans we've all seen it before. Soolsma takes it for me on the right hand side. My only complaint about having Soolsma and Avila as the wingers is that if most the traffic comes Soolsmas way with him crossing it into the box Eric Avila is only 5'8 so Koevermans is basically the only remote hope of putting a head on it in the box.
De Guzman was put into the centre midfield because I don't see Paul Mariner dumping him while he's still under contract and also the only other person we've seen who can play that position well would be perhaps twenty three year old Luis Silva who I don't see being more then coming off the bench for most of the normal games of the season. What does de Guzman do? Hopefully he doesn't have the bright idea to take to many shots from outside the box only to simply roof them. Pass onto the wingers and move. Pass & move.
Frings was put closer back to our defense to keep an eye on things then taking the ball making those plays by knocking it short to de Guzman or long to one of the wingers. He's our playmaker no? Vision? Passing? Field Marshall Frings?
Defense is fairly typical with Cann, and Henry proving throughout the season as the best pairing centrally on our team. I believe Hall has only been played to show he's healthy for trade-bait this summer, and Eckersley is the only true player to put at right back especially if we're paying him $300,000. Morgan is progressing well in my own opinion his runs have improved aswell as his crosses into the back but if he cannot produce defensively we have two other options depth wise with Emory & Aceval sitting on the bench/reserves.
Kocic remains unchallenged until Frei returns.
Does this make any sense? Maybe i'm just playing favoritism and trying to get the players I like the best into the XI while at the same time trying to throw the 4-3-3 away. Let me know, guys.
The only problem is I have no clue who to partner with Koevermans do you put Soolsma beside Koevermans and bring Reggie Lambe into the right midfield role? Do you slot Ryan Johnson into the striker slot giving you no strikers on the bench at all?
So? Who would you play beside Koevermans? (If we use two strikers up front)
Mariner said on the Fan to Jeff Blair that he's decided he will be playing a 4-4-2 or a 4-5-1. I think the latter would be a better choice given who is available.
Anybody who thinks things will settle down around here just because Winter is gone, is delusional.Unless TFC starts getting a bunch of wins or at least draws. Which, considering the upcoming schedule, is pretty unlikely.
Yeah,if players IQ is 37 than is complicated.
Let me know what Saturday morning you have some spare time I would like to invite to see 12-18 years old boys playing and executing 433 point to the back(pick any Sigma academy game you like http://www.academysoccer.ca/ ), and than you tell me is it so complicated that professional players can't learn in 18 months.
And now you think we are good since they will learn NEW Mariners system in a week or two,I wish you are right but I doubt it,I'm scared we will park the bus in front of the net or what we like to call Preki ball.
^ I would rep that if I could.
They're professional footballers, it's their job to be able to understand systems like that. If they can't then they don't deserve to be making money playing football. Even I understood what he was talking about so theres no excuse for professionals to nnot understand.
Someone here complained that BdK was referring to Barca players and therefore expecting us to play like Barca: he was using Barca as an example because they're the team that plays that style that the most people watch. He was using their players' names because people can relate to that better than if he just said the number. He could've used the Ajax players for his example as well but not as many people watch Ajax.
Agreed. It also seems that when we talk formations things get lumped into a category too easily. There are many different ways to pally a 4-3-3, just like there are different ways to play a 4-4-2. Not all of them are attack minded.
My main thing is maintaining an element of skill within the game. If we're going to use players like Preki had who are nothing more then greyhounds chasing a ball around the field, I have no support for that. It's not how the game is played today, it's not going to win games, develop the younger players, or provide anything useful to TFC other than a short-term kick.
Oh, I think it is an uphill battle from the get go and the odds are stacked against him. That said, I'm passed the point of looking for fairness. Winter was removed from the organization (academy too) for failure to get MLS results within a year and a half of a 3 year contract.Anybody who thinks things will settle down around here just because Winter is gone, is delusional.
Given that Mariner had a hand in building the current team, I don't see why he should have a grace period that lasts beyond this season. As stated, the wrong man was fired. Anselmi needed to go first.
Anselmi is banking on the leash extended the Mariner. The more patient we are, the less heat he will take. He likely feels he bought some insurance in the form of time by installing a new coach mid year.
For me it is win or draw now. There is no lose.
I think that "parking the bus" is likely, at least to some extent, given the poor defense. I doubt it will be as extreme as prekiball, which was dire. The skill element will almost certainly be diminished, but hopefully some skill will stay there, as it does for most MLS squads.
I like that. That's my new tagline!
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
I wasn't complaining about it, I was laughing at it. I would have liked them to use our own players.
Anyway, to be clear, I have not and will not defend 4-4-2. I don't like it, don't think we have a team built for it (thankfully, as we weren't trying to), and I think 4-3-3 and its variants are better. And, as you said, most should be able to play it.
There has been so much nonsense spoken over this thread its getting ridiculous. How can you give a professional player a scapegoat for not being able to learn a soccer system? Just because your slow and can't follow a simple player movement tutorial, doesn't mean you are right. Lets look to our next opponents in SKC. They play a 4-3-3, which was implemented very abruptly by their coach. Why is it working there?
Hmmmmmm
I have 2 masters degree's, but clearly I'm stupid then.
wow, talk about kicking the new manager down before they've even kicked a ball under his command!
Winter and his system sucked, and the results proved it.
Can Mainer do much worse?
I'm looking forward to seeing what Mariner can do. I'm not fearful of long balls, or new formations, or old school mentality. I like what Mariner has to say and I'm looking forward to seeing the team under him.
Pity some of you don't feel the same way. Some people obviously liked Winter's style (or losing games!).
I have total faith in Mariner, until proven otherwise. Winter proved my otherwise, so I'm glad he's gone.
all this carefree usage of the term 'park the bus' in so many threads.
thank you very much, England.
a ha ha heh he hoo.. ha
We are talking about a guy hired at the same time as Winter, to work with him and implement a new system. Winter may have failed in MLS by the results a year and a half into his contract. Mariner was right by his side.
So when Mariner says in an interview:Winter and his system sucked, and the results proved it.
Can Mainer do much worse?
I'm looking forward to seeing what Mariner can do. I'm not fearful of long balls, or new formations, or old school mentality. I like what Mariner has to say and I'm looking forward to seeing the team under him.
“All it is is minor adjustments,” he said during the media conference. “It really is. It’s not a massive overhaul.”
... you like what he has to say? I thought you didn't like Winter's system because it "sucked?" Sounds like Mariner, who was hired to implement Winter's system, is talking about a tinkering not something new.
What's different about what he has to say?
In reality every formation and every tactic has a time and a place. For England - missing their top goalscorer and against a far superior French side, they really did need to "park the bus" in front of their penalty area.
I'm sure there will be times that TFC have to do this. And I'm sure there will also be times that they can go and attack (especially in home games).
4-4-2 doesn't EVER have to mean "parking the bus". Roy Hodgson did it as he had to in that one game. I'm seen some extremely attacking and attractive 4-4-2 teams before. I've equally seen some awfully boring 4-3-3 teams before. All this "fear" of 4-4-2 is a little over the top and naive of some people.
I thought Park De Bus was the new Korean French defender TFC was interested in
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