Formations... what now?

[MartinUtd]

It doesn't sound like we'll be on the 433 much longer, so what does this mean we'll be doing? A lot of people are thinking it means a return to the 442 with Johnson and Koevermans up top and perhaps JDG and Frings in the middle. That's one option, but it also leaves no room for our hungry attacking mids: Avila and/or Silva whom I think can be the future of the club (unless a mass exodus occurs, but that's a different conversation entirely).

Personally I'd prefer to see a 4-4-1-1 or something like it. I'll bet Johnson is benched (see: "barring any injuries" comment from Mariner) and probably Soolsma and Lambe on the outside. Plata is a good sub to run at a tired defence, but so far hasn't shown that he's starting material. Frings is an obvious start, but JDG? I'm not so sure where he ranks in favourability. Maybe Stinson will get his chance to play beside Frings.. I doubt it will be Dunfield though.

Finally the back line. The four we've had lately seem to be getting the job done better than any other combination on the roster but as far as I'm concerned it's a craps shoot. So for posteriety, here's my prediction:


-----------Koevermans----------
------------Avila/Silva-----------
Lambe--Frings--Stinson--Soolsma
Morgan--Cann---Henry--Eckersly
-------------Kocic--------------

Like I said, not sure about attacking mid, but I imagine something close to this being Mariner's vision.

Who's up for some baseless formation speculation? I know NBF is!! (I kid, I kid)

[ManUtd4ever]

Here is your answer...

http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/articl...system-toronto

Mariner said he does not want to tip his hand about tactics to TFC's next two opponents, Sporting Kansas City and the Houston Dynamo, but he appears to be taking a more flexible approach to the system he will use.

“All it is is minor adjustments,” he said during the media conference. “It really is. It’s not a massive overhaul.”

He feels Toronto’s players are good enough to be better than the team’s 1-9-0 league record. And he feels that the players are the key whatever formation is used.

“To me, it’s whatever works,” Mariner said. “I’ve played in different systems. I’ve played with some unbelievable managers. Bobby Robson came up with a 4-3-1-2 that nobody else had ever thought about. It’s all about players, it’s all about putting players in the right position to succeed.

“That’s my basic coaching philosophy. I want to put people with the right abilities, I want to put people with the right skill set, in the right positions and that’s it," he added. "Just give them some instruction and hope that the core of players that we’ve got [Torsten Frings] and [Danny Koevermans] and so on and so forth, they can lead the team on the field for me.”

He feels that a “decent technical player” with “decent intelligence” can play most systems.

“It just annoys me that we talk about systems so much,” he added. “Because to me the players dictate the system and the players dictate whether they’re picked or not. Not me. The players dictate it with their performances.”

[MartinUtd]

That doesn't reveal much. His example of the Bobby Robson formation doesn't necessarily mean he's going to use it here. If it was, what do we expect? JDG benched with RJ and DK up front? I don't think we have the depth for a 2 striker formation at the moment... can Silva play striker if need be?

[ManUtd4ever]

Well, my interpretation is that he will adapt strategically depending on the opponent, as opposed to a rigid adherence to a specific lineup or formation.

[jabbronies]

Well, my interpretation is that he will adapt strategically depending on the opponent, as opposed to a rigid adherence to a specific lineup or formation.

One thing I found interesting was that Mariner spoke about arguments he and DeKlerk had on Dutch vs England football.

I can see us moving to a more structured way of play against the majority of MLS teams as oppose to the free flowing style we saw against LA, Santos etc. Then maybe leaving the free flow for the more "stylish" based teams or if we can catch a team flat footed we can switch up the flow.

[DoubleUp]

.........RJ...........DK
...............Avila..............
........Silva.......deguzman
...............Frings.......
...Morgan.Henry..Cann..Eckersley

[[NBF]]

You asked for it! By demand I gotta bring it.


-------------------------Kocic----------------------
------------------------Roberts---------------------
Eckersley---------Cann---------Henry---------Aceval
Hall--------------Maund--------Harden--------Morgan
-----------------Emory--------Williams---------------
-----------------------------------------------------
----------------DeGuzman---------------------------
Avila------------Dunfield--------Frings--------Johnson
Lambe--------------------------Silva------------Plata
-----------------------------------------------------
---------------Koevermans-----Soolsma--------------
-----------------------------------------------------

This is just a thought. Soolsma, Johnson, Plata is interchangable.

[Canary10]

I actually don't think Mariner will play a 4-4-2. I just don't see the personnel for it, particularly those outside midfielders and a second striker. I expect a more structured 4-3-3, which actually wouldn't be a bad thing. But we'll see.

[Initial B]

I think I see more of a 4-2-3-1 myself with the usual suspects at back, Frings and Deguzman at the holding/defensive midfield (Dunfield reserve), Plata/Soolsma-Avila/Silva-Lambe/Johnson as the attacking midfield/wingers, and Koovermans/Johnson as target strikers.

[Ajax TFC]

First thing to do is evaluate the players, decide who should definitely be starting and where they're most effective. Then build a formation around that (ignoring the defenders since I'm going to assume a back line of four).
IMO our best players are:
Avila: IMO he has the most vision of anyone on the team and has a pretty accurate pass to go with it. Although he's mostly seen as a #10, and usually plays there, I see him more as a deep lying play-maker. He has the speed and skill to play on the wing, but IMO his primary abilities are wasted there.
Frings: Incredibly strong presence on the field, but he unfortunately lacks speed to complement his mentality. He should be paired with a pit-bull in midfield.
Koevermans: self-explanatory IMO. He holds the ball up and can score lots of goals.
Soolsma: One of our most consistent good performers. He can beat his man on the wing like no one else on the squad and can get into positions to score goals.
Lambe: great shot, and the expectations of lightning speed that came with him have lead to such huge initial appointment that the speed that he does have is now underrated. also his crossing is good.

next in line:
Plata (who I think should be a supersub)
De Guzman: not a must start, but should still be high on the depth chart
Silva: his ball control and spacial awareness leave something to be desired, but he could become a good player
Johnson: I rate him as a Jack of all trades, master of none. He can play striker, but he wastes HUGE opportunities. He can play on the wing or as a #10, but he lacks the awareness to be good in either of those positions.
Burgos: I rate, but from the sounds of it I don't think he'll be getting any more time under Mariner.

Filler: who cares, they're just filler

Then build a formation based on that priority order and what will be needed.

[Yohan]

Love how people assume that since mariner is english, tfc will play 'boring' 442 longball.

[T-boy]

It's comical how some people see 4-4-2 or direct football as "boring". Neither necessarily are boring at all! I've seen some extremely exciting 4-4-2 teams before, and I've equally seen fantastic long ball direct football teams before!

[__wowza]

here's my 2D mockup of a plausible formation we can play with the roster we currently got:

[Wooster_TFC]

First thing to do is evaluate the players, decide who should definitely be starting and where they're most effective. Then build a formation around that (ignoring the defenders since I'm going to assume a back line of four).
IMO our best players are:
Avila: IMO he has the most vision of anyone on the team and has a pretty accurate pass to go with it. Although he's mostly seen as a #10, and usually plays there, I see him more as a deep lying play-maker. He has the speed and skill to play on the wing, but IMO his primary abilities are wasted there.
Frings: Incredibly strong presence on the field, but he unfortunately lacks speed to complement his mentality. He should be paired with a pit-bull in midfield.
Koevermans: self-explanatory IMO. He holds the ball up and can score lots of goals.
Soolsma: One of our most consistent good performers. He can beat his man on the wing like no one else on the squad and can get into positions to score goals.
Lambe: great shot, and the expectations of lightning speed that came with him have lead to such huge initial appointment that the speed that he does have is now underrated. also his crossing is good.

next in line:
Plata (who I think should be a supersub)
De Guzman: not a must start, but should still be high on the depth chart
Silva: his ball control and spacial awareness leave something to be desired, but he could become a good player
Johnson: I rate him as a Jack of all trades, master of none. He can play striker, but he wastes HUGE opportunities. He can play on the wing or as a #10, but he lacks the awareness to be good in either of those positions.
Burgos: I rate, but from the sounds of it I don't think he'll be getting any more time under Mariner.

Filler: who cares, they're just filler

Then build a formation based on that priority order and what will be needed.

So, Kocic (need a keeper right?), 0 defenders, 2 DMs, 1 CM, 2 AMs, 3 Wingers, and a striker? 0-2-1-2-3-1? I like it!

[Ajax TFC]

So, Kocic (need a keeper right?), 0 defenders, 2 DMs, 1 CM, 2 AMs, 3 Wingers, and a striker? 0-2-1-2-3-1? I like it!

Defenders are overrated. They fall under "filler".
I ignored the defenders because defense isn't as interesting as midfield and attack

[[NBF]]

If Paul Mariner has been with TFC for 18 months and has no formation in mind that will work with these players than he really is amateur. There's really no point in hiding the formation its only going to be a surprise for about 45 minutes. I just hope its not a surprise to the players 15 minutes prior to the game.

[T-boy]

If Paul Mariner has been with TFC for 18 months and has no formation in mind that will work with these players than he really is amateur. There's really no point in hiding the formation its only going to be a surprise for about 45 minutes. I just hope its not a surprise to the players 15 minutes prior to the game.

I'd personally rather it be a surprise to opponents than Winter's "we will play 4-3-3 not matter what" approach!

[wesvahr]

I am going to have to agree with Intial B and they should play a 4-2-3-1. Koevermans as the line striker, soolsma and Johnson as the wide midfield players and Avila in the middle.

Frings and JDG as the holding midfielders and a back 4 with Eckersly, Cann, Henry, Morgan/Hall.

[prizby]

expect much of the same...4-2-3-1; maybe the wingers pushed back a bit more

[Canary10]

expect much of the same...4-2-3-1; maybe the wingers pushed back a bit more

Rumour was that Mariner had them in a 4-4-2 in practice today. Love to know where they conjured up another striker.

[ArmenJBX]

Rumour was that Mariner had them in a 4-4-2 in practice today. Love to know where they conjured up another striker.

Peri Marosevic is in camp

[TFCtoMUFC]

Peri Marosevic is in camp

4-4-2

-----------Koevermans----Johnson-----------

-Soolsma----DeGuzman----Frings----Lambe-

-Morgan----Cann----Henry----Eckersley-

---------------------Kocic----------------------

[KGH]

I agree to some extrent except do a bit of switching:

---------Johnson-------Koevermans----------

-Avila----DeGuzman----Frings----Soolsma-

-Morgan----Cann----Henry------Eckersley----

---------------------Kocic----------------------

Then sub in some speed if we need to attack:

---------Johnson-------Koevermans----------

--Plata-----Avila ----Frings----Lambe-

-Morgan----Cann----Henry------Eckersley----

---------------------Kocic----------------------

[Ajax TFC]

I wouldn't bench any of Avila, Lambe, or Soolsma for De Guzman, and Avila has to play central midfield

[Canary10]

I agree to some extrent except do a bit of switching:

---------Johnson-------Koevermans----------

-Avila----DeGuzman----Frings----Soolsma-

-Morgan----Cann----Henry------Eckersley----

---------------------Kocic----------------------

Then sub in some speed if we need to attack:

---------Johnson-------Koevermans----------

--Plata-----Avila ----Frings----Lambe-

-Morgan----Cann----Henry------Eckersley----

---------------------Kocic----------------------

Johnson can't finish. He's been a acting the role of striker in the absence of Danny, and just isn't doing it for me. I guess he could take a deeper lying role in a two striker formation, but he's far better on the wing than used as a striker. For that reason neither of these formations look good to me.

I also, frankly, don't see either Plata or Johnson as an outside mid in a 4-4-2. They're both forwards, not midfielders. Soolsma is the only one of our mids and wingers I can actually see there. Maybe Lambe. But that's it.

And I agree with the comments about Avila. He's much better in the middle, although he surprised me playing in the wing against RSL that one game. Probably the only weird Winter personnel change that really panned out. Playing him on the left of midfield though makes no sense to me at all.

Mariner should play 4-2-3-1 and claim it's something different than 4-3-3 (which it really isn't, but he needs to brand something different or people will wonder what the point was).

[[NBF]]

I watched Croatia vs Ireland and the Croatians were linedup in a 4-1-3-2 which got me thinking about what TFC would look like in a 4-1-3-2.


------------------------Kocic-----------------------
----------------------------------------------------
Eckersley--------Cann----------Henry---------Aceval
Hall-------------Maund---------Harden--------Morgan
----------------Emory---------Williams--------------
----------------------------------------------------
----------------------DeGuzman---------------------
-----------------------Dunfield----------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------Avila--------Frings------Johnson----------
----------Stinson------Burgos-------Silva------------
-----------------------------------------------------
------------Koevermans---------Soolsma-------------
--------------Lambe--------------Plata--------------

or

4-1-3-1-1:

------------------------Kocic-----------------------
-----------------------Roberts----------------------
----------------------------------------------------
Eckersley--------Cann----------Henry---------Aceval
Hall-------------Maund---------Harden--------Morgan
----------------Emory---------Williams--------------
----------------------------------------------------
----------------------DeGuzman---------------------
-----------------------Dunfield----------------------
----------------------------------------------------
-----------Avila--------Frings------Johnson----------
----------Lambe-------Stinson------Silva------------
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------Soolsma----------------------
------------------------Plata------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
---------------------Koevermans--------------------

[BHTC Mike]

I watched Croatia vs Ireland and the Croatians were linedup in a 4-1-3-2 which got me thinking about what TFC would look like in a 4-1-3-2.

Sometimes we get hung up on numbering formations too much. I blame EA's FIFA series! Like the "is it a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-5-1" both of the formations you posted could just as easily be described, in broad terms, as 4-4-2s:

Four defenders: Eck, Cann, Henry, and Aceval

Four midfielders: Avila, De Guz, Frings, and Johnson

Two forwards: Soolsma and Koevermans

The nuances of starting positions are different but all you've done is designated De Guzman exclusively as a holder. The thing is that in a traditional 4-4-2 his tendencies would result in him naturally be the one dropping back to give Frings the opportunity to break forward. Defensively, as the whole team drops Avila and Johnson wouldn't be able to stay that central so the whole shape would look more like a 4-4-2. Their exact starting positions on your team chart might be a bit different but two more creative players wide and two more defensive players central is not a revolutionary way to set your team up!

That said, I really like the line-up and shape you've described as 4-1-3-1-1. There can be little arguments over exactly who should start (and Mariner's "the players pick who starts" statement reflects that) but, in general, I see the logic of what you're suggesting. The big gaping hole on our team is that we don't have a single back-up capable of being a true centre forward behind Danny K. Soolsma and Plata though are both capable of being the creative player underneath. Soolsma's style would lend itself more to link play through him while Plata could fill the old fashioned "fast guy" in a big guy/fast guy combo. The interesting thing is that by starting them underneath, along with their experience as wingers, they'd both be able to switch flanks and drift wide as play allows. I wouldn't expect them to be rigidly sitting "in the hole" or beside Koevermans.

Avila, by our standards, is an MLS veteran and has been used in wide positions before. I'm pretty sure that Yallop regularly used Johnson as a midfielder on the left in San Jose. It provides a nice balance in a 4-4-2: offensively Avila looking to tuck in ahead of the central pairing to get on the ball and make space for the more offensive full back in Eckersley (or Hall) to move forward while defensively he's more likely to cover than Johnson. Johnson's tendency will be to break forward to the wing but he'd have the cover of a more defensive full back behind him and Avila is an intelligent enough player to recognize that he shouldn't be barrelling forward at the same time. The odd men out look like Morgan and Lambe. Personally, I think we grossly over rate Morgan though and that he's got a long way to go in his development before he should be starting as much as he has.

In the end I'm really interested to see how Mariner's influence is reflected in the team. I'm hoping that the team will be more compact and conservative about when they choose to move forward in numbers. I don't expect to see 7 players ahead of the ball in the opponents end like we've occasionally had happen this season. We don't need to give up on the possesion game but I'd hope to see a greater mix of passing with less emphasis on always building from the back. Our defence isn't good enough - passing OR defending! - to have the ball in our half as much as Winter wanted and we need to play with the ball in front of our midfield more often. That doesn't mean booting it every time but against a team with high up the field pressing like KC we're gonna need to just clear the ball some times and not overplay.

KC away and Houston away would be tough, tough games even for the league's better teams that you wouldn't expect to get a lot out of. I'd say 1 point between the two of them is a regular return. If we were to get 2-4 points that'd be a pretty spectacular turn around from how this league campaign started. To be honest though I'd be happy with just not looking disorganized and defeated!

[Auzzy]

Love how people assume that since mariner is english, tfc will play 'boring' 442 longball.

It's comical how some people see 4-4-2 or direct football as "boring". Neither necessarily are boring at all! I've seen some extremely exciting 4-4-2 teams before, and I've equally seen fantastic long ball direct football teams before!

I feel that comments like this over-hype and distort the conversation. Did you guys actually read the rest of the posts in this thread? Not a single person mentioned "boring" or "longball" (other than you two). I know it's been mentioned plenty in other threads, but not here. Seems to be a fairly mature discussion of various formations & options, best fit for players, trying to guess what Mariner will do, etc, with no overt hostility towards Mariner, 4-4-2, or anything else.

[Phil]

Peri Marosevic is in camp

He played in the last reserves game from what I hear.

Hopefully they can settle the money situation as I thought he would do pretty well in TFC red.

[T-boy]

I feel that comments like this over-hype and distort the conversation. Did you guys actually read the rest of the posts in this thread? Not a single person mentioned "boring" or "longball" (other than you two). I know it's been mentioned plenty in other threads, but not here. Seems to be a fairly mature discussion of various formations & options, best fit for players, trying to guess what Mariner will do, etc, with no overt hostility towards Mariner, 4-4-2, or anything else.

The fear of 4-4-2 etc is written a lot in the "major announcement" thread more than here, for sure.

I'm defending the 4-4-2 and tactics here, as are most people.