fuck, this is absolutely the worst move they could have made!!!
fuck, this is absolutely the worst move they could have made!!!
The losing may be the same, but nothing else. No one's going to send out a questionnaire to hockey fans on Ontario asking them how they'd prefer to lose, not even these idiots. Besides, Leaf fans can name the other teams in the league and a few players on each team and how they play. And Leaf fans know their team isn't anywhere near dictating a style of play to their opponents.Originally Posted by TOBOR THE GREAT !
This will be fine, TFC is just finally accepting they have a long way to go and have to start at the beginning, there are no shortcuts, you can't buy a style and a culture, you have to build it. In a few years they might even be where you want them to be but they weren't really on the way there.
OK I've calmed down a bit now. Took multiple watchings of that Mr. Rogers viral video to do it though.
Let's give Mariner a try.
And hope Anselmi gets promoted/moved in the fall.
The boys we have are a good team. We got some issues with certain players and I don't trust the back line all that much yet and the forwards are snake bit.
But there a good bunch and Mariner isn't stupid.
De Klerk staying makes me feel good too.
Darn that Mr. Rogers is really good stuff. Going to go back to take another drag.
No. What I meant was being sold a 5 year rebuild, but having that scrapped upon the realization that it's going to take 5 years.
This might get us a couple of wins in the short term, but the big picture is long term mediocrity.
No thanks.
GOLD
I wrote a terrific post but then lost it. Anyway, JLoome has said it best above, "This is what the mediocre big business does best..." as long as this mediocre big business is in charge the best we can hope is a pragmatic approach to MLS and once in a while if the players are healthy at the end of a season the team will squeak into the playoffs and maube win a cup.
I think people need to realize that Mariner has less coaching experience than Winter, and nowhere near the playing resume. So what did we really get?
I'm sorry, I want to give him a chance, but...
Yeah. That's an epic post by Loomey... and essentially sums it up.I wrote a terrific post but then lost it
People are being too suicidal.
1) It could have been worse. It could have been Brennan
2) Winter had more experience? No way. Mariner has had years of relevant MLS experience. Winter ran some kids around in Amsterdam. When Taylor Twellman quit, he went out of his way to thank Mariner for helping him.
3) What's the difference? The season was over. At least this gives us something to talk about.
4) It's not a more fundamental change that could affect the freedom of motion of the new owners (as giving a big name a big contract would do)
He's here, we may as well see what he's got. Let's wish him well, and have some beers in the sunshine. Who cares anyway? We were going nowhere, we probably still are.
But until he spits the bit, knock em dead Paul!
What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.
A coaching change is most definitely not a major announcement around here. ITS THE FUCKING NORM!!! Its what we do every year, and sometimes twice!
Agreed.
If you disregard the peculiar timing and poor optics of today's announcement, the issue is really whether or not Mariner is an upgrade over Winter.
Given the circumstances regarding ownership, it was unrealistic to expect an elaborate, diligent hiring process to take place in search of a permanent replacement. The choices were to either commit to Winter for the rest of the season, or to make an interim change now with the CCL and the bulk of the MLS season still in the balance.
Who knows, if the roster remains relatively healthy and the players respond well to a fresh approach and a new voice in the locker room, TFC just might surprise a few clubs the rest of the way. Our players have proven to be capable in the past.
Mr. Anselmi stated today that he "did not know the reason" as to why the organization has underachieved over the past six seasons. At this precise moment, a reporter should have placed a mirror in front of Mr. Anselmi. No words needed, just accurate placement of the mirror.
Good luck PM. We're counting on you to get us out of this mess.
My vote: Planted for the privilege of the scoop.
Globe and Mail is now on my never read shit list.
So, the fellow that brought us Andy Iro, Miguel Aceval, and Geovanny Caicedo (so we have to assume), gets a promotion.
Oh BTW he has to keep Bob de Klerk and Thomas Rongen, folks that are probably closer to Aron Winter philosophically. The next drama is pre-programmed: the Academy probably won't be producing the types of players that we need for his game in MLS...
Ensco is right, Mariner better rent and not buy a house. Also be careful leasing a car, it can cost a bundle to terminate a lease early. Just buy a car that's already a couple of years old, it won't lose too much value by the time you get canned in 6 months to a year. Or maybe JDG can offer you a rent-to-own deal on one of his cars.
Pffft we saw the real 'quality' of TFC coverage today. 95% of the reporters covering this team are spineless pussies.
Nigel Reid first and foremost, absolutely pathetic.
Shit, just as Winter was about to make us the best team in MLS after we had beaten elite competition like Philadelphia.....
Thought I would re-post this here to perhaps spur the conversation along:
__________________________________________________ ____________
Six seasons of relative futility with only a few Voyageurs Cup and CONCACAF crumbs to sustain us.
A fan base that grew with early promise slowly eroding with each passing season.
Soon to be six seasons with no playoffs.
Six seasons and seven head coaches and essentially three significant clean outs of the front office.
Roughly 130 players and counting have now passed through the revolving door that must be installed on the front of the BMO Field dressing room at this point.
Arguably, depending on the metrics you use, Toronto FC is on the aggregate the worst team in MLS over the past six seasons.
And only one constant at the top of the decision making tree exists since the club was founded. Mr. Tom Anselmi.
This is the Toronto FC I know. Tom Anselmi has been in charge since day one and one can argue that TFC is in as bad a shape today as it has ever been in. The playoffs are once again a pipe dream, and this is just about the earliest time on the annual calendar since 2007 that I think I can say that. A respected online sports statistical service stated that as of today Toronto FC has about a 0.3% chance of getting to the post season in 2012. And if current trends/patterns hold they have a 56.8% probability to win the wooden spoon which is emblematic of finishing dead last in Major League Soccer. And all of that is on the leagues third highest payroll, with a number of players dramatically over paid for the return the team is getting on the field in return.There are still glaring holes all over the field and today the Director of Player Development, and now Head Coach, Paul Mariner tells us that he feels that he does not have a lot of depth on the roster to workAnselmi with after what he considers the starting eleven to be in his opinion and that he intends to essentially run his chosen eleven into the ground between now and October when this shambles of a season mercifully will come to an end. Was he not brought in last season to help provide the very depth of quality players into this side that he now laments not having?
The list of bad footballing decisions that this team has made since the start is of course a long one. Whether it be a long list of expensive flops (Robert, Teliby, Mista, Vitti, Ruiz take your pick), letting the DeRo situation fester to the point that his leaving simply had to happen, whether it be bad trade after bad trade or silly contract after silly contract signed under a parsimonious MLS salary cap system, the list is long and inglorious of mistakes made and opportunities lost. And to make matters worse to see former Reds who have left for little to no return prosper elsewhere in MLS (Buddle, DeRo, Maicon Santos, Cronin, Wynne, Casey, Dunivant etc.) makes one ask how good players could not work out here but prosper elsewhere? What does it say about the people in charge of this team when seven players leave Toronto for next to no return in trades or allocation and then go on to win the MLS Cup?
All of these footballing decisions that were proven to be stupid upon stupid upon stupid were never ever called out by the powers to be at MLSE because the man at the top of the TFC organization has but a passing knowledge of this game and is more interested in using TFC as a springboard for his personal ambitions. And todays announcement that Aron Winter was being replaced by Paul Mariner definitely spoke to that reality.
Why do this now? Why not a few weeks ago?
Why do this now when many supporters eyes were placed on Havana where Canadas National Team plays Friday in World Cup Qualifying? Why do this when most casual fans of the sport are focused on the European Championship Tournament also kicking off Friday? And why wait this long into the International break to do this when it could have been done before the players left town? To me there is no other reason than Tom Anselmi wishing to bury this story as best as he could and the criticism he is sure to get from this state of affairs as far into the proverbial back pages as he possibly can.
Tom can read a results table. And I know he can read a spreadsheet. But he knows bugger all about footy.
Thats why Mo made the decisions he made without anyone to call him on them. That is why Coaches like Carver, Cummins and Preki were either hired or fired or given too much time or given too little time, depending upon your point of view. Thats why he had to rely upon a high priced consultant in Jürgen Klinsmann to choose a man in retrospect who might be looked at to have been out of his depth in Aron Winter to try and turn the club around.
A Team President who knows enough about soccer to know bullshit when he sees it has been the one thing this team has never had. And more than any other single reason it is why the team is where it finds itself today. Everything else has been tried has it not? And when asked Thursday to comment about the frustration that fans are obviously feeling about the prospects for this team he snidely replied in a throw away remark that he only hired two of the seven coaches that the team has has in its six years of existence.
Wait a minute.
Anselmi has been Team President since Day One. Every hire on the business and on the soccer side has ultimately been his responsibility whether he actually interviewed the candidates or not. And ultimately he should be paying the price for the results on the field. But he is not. Only Aron Winter is.
It seems to me that Anselmi is more concerned with making sure that any stink from the TFC mess largely of his own creation does not get in his way of what he truly wants, namely the chance to soon take over from Richard Peddie as the head honcho of Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment. And with the Rogers/Bell ownership group soon to take charge Anselmi can say to them after the firing of Winter that he is taking action to get the soccer business straightened out.
I for one hopes he gets his job. Then he can give up the job at Toronto FC that he has been an abject failure at and focus on his spreadsheets and on getting his new corporate overlords the profits they want. Hopefully then TFC can have a President at the helm that knows enough about the sport to make sure that they try and learn from the mistakes of the past instead of repeating them over and over again.
If Anselmi has been able to survive the six years of dreck that has been Toronto FC and still have a job the only way he will ever leave is if he gets promoted.
Lets all hope.
ugh this whole situation drives me insane. I can only hope one daly that the weasel Anselmi will get canned and the team can bring in qualified people from the top down to the u11s. Because Mariner just keeps the team in the same situation. Fuck them all.
Given the current restraints as a result of the pending change in ownership, the choices were to keep Winter for the duration of the season or promote from within. In that context, Mariner was a logical choice as an interim replacement at this juncture.
As for Mariner's track record regarding player recruitment, his overall performance has been decent. You neglected to mention the likes of Plata, Eckersley, Johnson, Avila, and Lambe, among others.
Time will tell if Mariner is capable of achieving a modicum of success with a roster that failed miserably (in league play) under Winter. Of course, the benchmark for success wasn't set very high by Mariner's predecessor, which is precisely why this essentially equates to a low risk maneuver with potential upside.
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 06-07-2012 at 11:44 PM.
This is reality. The onus is on us to strike while the iron is hot and make sure he doesn't survive through this one.
Given our obvious need of massive help at CB, Mariner's total failure at that position is in no way excused by the other players you mentioned. Especially considering a) Plata (transfer fee) & Ecks are very expensive, especially at their positions in this league, really not much of a find considering that; b) Johnson is also failing miserably in league play, see the Sounders at Heart article where his performance is analyzed (a real backup striker would have been much more valuable to us than another guy who should really be playing on the wing); c) Avila is OK but doesn't seem to be the level of player we need at that position, and at $158k really not much of a find; d) Lambe was injured too long to show much so far, looks pretty good after a year, but we would be much further ahead if we had a decent CB since then.
So Mariner as the "interim replacement" -- you're already setting us up for the 8th head coach next year? Then I would rather they had held onto Winter until they're able to find an absolute top-notch manager, not another "maybe" candidate.
Last edited by Auzzy; 06-08-2012 at 12:16 AM.
Personally I want Mariner to do well and think that he will.... But I want the three stooges removed from TFC operations regardless. Especially Anselmi... did you see him at the press conference? The guy is a worm.
Threw everyone under the bus including Mariner who ironically stuck up for Anselmi more then once. That says everything that you need to know.
This.
Let's all push in the same direction for once.
^^ You know, a couple of weeks ago I also would have defended some of Mariner's signings (except at CB). The MLS salary list kind of dampened my enthusiasm. But the bigger thing is, after more upheaval i.e. firing Winter, I'm massively underwhelmed that we get Mariner as head coach, and no change above him.
I wish Mariner well, he seems to be another decent guy. Who knows, maybe he can pragmatically turn things around and I'll hop on the bandwagon. However, after all this crap, we really need a top-notch guy we can trust. That's so the fans & players don't start going berserk after 2 or 3 losses, because the guy's experience & proven record gives us confidence that he can turn it around. Mariner does not give us that confidence. Maybe he can earn it though. We shall see.
Moderator
Couldn't agree more. It's time that the the Red Patch Boys and the other supporter groups here in Toronto combine their voices and demand his resignation from TFC. We cannot hope to advance as a club with his stewardship.
If we were to only agree on one thing, it should be this.
Last edited by Cashcleaner; 06-08-2012 at 12:43 AM.
Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.
Winter is not the problem... Fire Anselmi!
I'm surprised Mariner was able to speak with his head firmly wedged inside Ansemli's backside!
You think that was bad, listen to Luke Wileman on MLS Extratime practically gargling Mariner's dick.
In all fairness, though, I do think we might get better results with Mariner, just because of his willingness to make small changes, rather than be systemically rigid. I'm not sure he got the job entirely fairly, but it's a tough business.
My one fear? He was behind both Plata and Lambe, so maybe Nick Soolsma -- who to me is massively underrated -- gets stuck to the bench.
I think he'll stay with a 4-3-3 base but if he goes to a "best players available" setup, to me it would be:
---------------Kocic---------------
Ecks----Henry---Emory----Morgan
---------DeGuzman--Frings--------
--Johnson-----------------Lambe
----------Soolsma---------------
--------------Koevermans--------
I think Soolsma is underrated playing inside; he passes well, holds the ball up, can rotate and swap with Johnson to create all sorts of havoc on that side.
I think Mariner was hired with this eventuality in mind.
Every coach out there wants a backup for each starter. The theory being that this keeps both players, the starter and the challenger, sharper.
So, was Mariner hired to put the pressure on Winter? To try to push him harder?
Just a theory, dearie.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the Mariner era and hoping it runs for many years.
O, Maple Leaf around the world, You speak as you rise high above,
Of courage, peace and quiet strength, Of the Canada that I love.
Remind us all, our union bound by ties we cannot sever,
Bright flag revered on every ground, The Maple Leaf forever
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