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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManUtd4ever View Post
    I agree with this entire post with the exception that Toronto is (perceived to be) a boring place to live.

    Professional athletes of all designations from all four corners of the earth have had nothing but overwhelmingly positive things to say about our city. In fact, I believe there was a fairly recent poll among NBA players (who are known to love to party) that Toronto was one of their favorite cities in the league in which to endulge themselves.

    Perhaps Toronto doesn't have the cache of LA or New York, but it should be right up there in the next echelon of preferred cities to live in for any professional athlete.
    This is the key though - they love VISITING Toronto. They don't necessarily want to live here with all that entails (higher taxes, etc.)

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManUtd4ever View Post
    Was that the case when the Raps were a winning club during the Glen Grunwald era?

    Vince Carter and Antonio Davis both re-signed with the Raps as pending free agents during that era and Hakeem Olajuwon signed with the Raps as the prized free agent acquisition of the off season during that era as well.

    The reason why star NBA athletes don't want to play in Toronto anymore is because MLSE has run the Raptors franchise into the ground. It has absolutely nothing to do with the appeal or quality of life of our beautiful city.
    The Raptors have never brought a top tier player to Toronto in the prime of their career as a free agent signing...NEVER

    Face it, Toronto isn't a desired destination for top level pros.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManUtd4ever View Post
    I agree with this entire post with the exception that Toronto is (perceived to be) a boring place to live.

    Professional athletes of all designations from all four corners of the earth have had nothing but overwhelmingly positive things to say about our city. In fact, I believe there was a fairly recent poll among NBA players (who are known to love to party) that Toronto was one of their favorite cities in the league in which to endulge themselves.

    Perhaps Toronto doesn't have the cache of LA or New York, but it should be right up there in the next echelon of preferred cities to live in for any professional athlete.
    this sounds great except you're under the perception that athletes are intelligent down to earth individuals....not many are like Dichio,.(just a compliment)...most prefer the glamour, good or bad...and many are spoiled immature jocks.....not exactly your patient home with the kids type...and I say unfortunately.. and that was an old survey based on partying basically in clubs pre and after the game with plenty of woman for the picking, not exactly a city environment.......ever seen a athlete on the TTC? I love Toronto but for lack of vision look at our waterfront.....I think this is for another day though
    ALL HELL'S BROKEN LOOSEhttp://gfycat.com/SharpKindArrowana

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by tfcleeds View Post
    This is the key though - they love VISITING Toronto. They don't necessarily want to live here with all that entails (higher taxes, etc.)
    I agree that the higher percentage of income tax can be a potential deterrent for some high quality free agents, but these are multimillionaires after all.

    If the Raptors were to ever become a perennial contender, I have no doubt that Toronto would become one of the preferred destinations among high level NBA free agents.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by prizby View Post
    The Raptors have never brought a top tier player to Toronto in the prime of their career as a free agent signing...NEVER

    Face it, Toronto isn't a desired destination for top level pros.
    Vince Carter was in his prime and the most popular athlete on the freaking planet when he chose to re-sign in Toronto as a pending free agent.

    We'll agree to disagree.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManUtd4ever View Post
    Vince Carter was in his prime and the most popular athlete on the freaking planet when he chose to re-sign in Toronto as a pending free agent.

    We'll agree to disagree.
    chose to re-sign...he made more money by re-signing. He'd have lost out on $20 million plus and 1 year guaranteed had he decided to sign elsewhere.

    Your arguement is flawed

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    However, the use of magic allocation money and the mysterious base salary vs guaranteed salary in the cap hit calculation means that the smoke and mirror nature of the MLS salary cap is alive and well.
    Again: there's no mystery here! NEITHER value represents what a player costs out of a team's salary budget. Those are the PA's numbers NOT the league's! All the problems start when people try to start turning those numbers into hard "cap estimates". MLS team finances ARE a black box and the PA's numbers give us a tangential data point rather than a window into them. Plato's "cave" metaphor works even better: the PA's numbers we see are the shadows on the wall in front of us instead of the real ones between us and the fire.

    And we've used "magic" allocation money pretty heavily in the past ourselves. People forget how over budget our 2009 team was even BEFORE considering De Guzman's addition. Mo had built that team by piling up allocation from expansion, trades, playoffless seasons, and selling Edu. That was supposed to be our "go for it" year in the budget management cycle and the best he could do was a talented but aging and horribly unbalanced team with no central defense. Sadly, if people understood that story better they might have understood what Preki was doing in 2010 to start a rebuild - and overachieving while he did it - instead of buying the bullshit narrative Anselmi sold (and probably believed) about having a good team that just needed a real coach to take them over the "finishing line" (by which he meant "make the playoffs" ).

    Your broader premise is 100% correct: MLS will change its rules as business oppurtunities present themselves. They're a partnership and if one partner can convince the others that it's in all of their interest to amend or bend the rules it'll happen. But this isn't like the days when AEG basically ran the league on their own as a house league and could favour one of their own properties over another. Carlos Ruiz ain't being sent to LA anymore without a willing ownership on the other end of the deal who get something out of it. (Which seems to be Chivas these days actually!).
    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    When that infrastructure failed, fans began to ask what they were getting for their money. Rather than bring in experienced, they brought in band aids. A DP or two. Some real grass. Even stadium expansion all came before the Academy and Training facilities. They didnt seek out a consultant until 5ish years into it.
    And even that consultant was a PR decision. Yet people bought the sauerkraut, changed their avatars to German flags, and declared success because a big famous ex-European star they'd heard of who talked a lot about pretty soccer was gonna be parachuted in for a few months. Rather than doing the hard work of finding a qualified management candidate with a deep understanding of North American soccer and a resume of success they went for the standard FC Hollywood North approach that worked in '06 when they announced "the Scottish Wayne Gretzky" as our first employee and helped brand our club's early identity.

    God I'm in a bitchy mood today! Sorry.
    Last edited by BHTC Mike; 06-02-2012 at 11:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by prizby View Post
    chose to re-sign...he made more money by re-signing. He'd have lost out on $20 million plus and 1 year guaranteed had he decided to sign elsewhere.

    Your arguement is flawed
    My argument isn't flawed in the least.

    As tfcleeds mentioned, the income tax levels were (and still are) substantially higher in Canada. Futhermore, there was also rampant speculation in the media at the time that Carter was potentially giving up tens of millions of dollars in potential supplemental income via endorsement revenue in the US if he chose to stay in Toronto.

    If anything, in the grand scheme of things, Carter re-signed in Toronto with the knowledge that he would potentially earn less total income, as opposed to if he signed with a high profile team in the US.
    Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 06-02-2012 at 11:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Makes you wonder though who is actually lobbying for some owners to spend more than others. As you highlight, the league is the ultimate owner and revenue is shared. If the league (owner) has popular winning franchises in its largest markets, they stand to benefit do they not in terms of TV audience, ticket sales, etc? Just coincidence that the big names like Henry, Keane, Marquez, all landed in the 2 largest markets?

    When you factor in that SUM is involved with Barcelona and MLS and Barcelona had a $0 transfer fee for the NYRBs... it was $5M for any team but NY... it sure sounds like a wonderfully convenient coincidence.
    Or the best way to market a new league in a very crowded sports market.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by prizby View Post
    chose to re-sign...he made more money by re-signing. He'd have lost out on $20 million plus and 1 year guaranteed had he decided to sign elsewhere.

    Your arguement is flawed
    Quote Originally Posted by ManUtd4ever View Post
    My argument isn't flawed in the least.

    Both your arguments are flawed and pure conjecture. It's all based on supposition of other people's thoughts and perspectives. Neither of you has presented a whit of supporting evidence.

    So both arguments are flawed. In fact, the only way you can say any argument isn't flawed is to a) have proof of who's right or b) be advancing a dialectical discussion, trying to reconcile disparate evidence from each side.
    Last edited by jloome; 06-02-2012 at 12:38 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    So both arguments are flawed. In fact, the only way you can say any argument isn't flawed is to a) have proof of who's right or b) be advancing a dialectical discussion, trying to reconcile disparate evidence from each side.
    If you're going to tell me that a lot of the opinions that fly around this board are nothing but completely unsubstantiated personal opinions, derived from nothing but what they think is patently "obvious" - well sir, I'm going to have to ask you to step outside for a good old fashioned donnybrook.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManUtd4ever View Post
    Was that the case when the Raps were a winning club during the Glen Grunwald era?

    Vince Carter and Antonio Davis both re-signed with the Raps as pending free agents during that era and Hakeem Olajuwon signed with the Raps as the prized free agent acquisition of the off season during that era as well.

    The reason why star NBA athletes don't want to play in Toronto anymore is because MLSE has run the Raptors franchise into the ground. It has absolutely nothing to do with the appeal or quality of life of our beautiful city.
    Agreed. I followed the raptors extensively at the time and the man speaks the truth. At the time things were clicking nicely. Hell same goes for the Jays in the early days. I don't understand some sports fans in this city and their short-man complex when it comes to getting free agents.

    We're not going to compete with NY or LA on glamor but we have a very competitive city here in other aspects. People are just defeatist when it comes to this stuff. If the financial commitment is there and the franchises are run properly we should be competitive for free agents.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by BHTC Mike View Post
    And we've used "magic" allocation money pretty heavily in the past ourselves. People forget how over budget our 2009 team was even BEFORE considering De Guzman's addition. Mo had built that team by piling up allocation from expansion, trades, playoffless seasons, and selling Edu. That was supposed to be our "go for it" year in the budget management cycle and the best he could do was a talented but aging and horribly unbalanced team with no central defense. Sadly, if people understood that story better they might have understood what Preki was doing in 2010 to start a rebuild - and overachieving while he did it - instead of buying the bullshit narrative Anselmi sold (and probably believed) about having a good team that just needed a real coach to take them over the "finishing line" (by which he meant "make the playoffs" ).
    Great point, and one people often miss.

    By all accounts, Johnston should have been beyond dead in the water after year three. It was clear he threw everything he had at making the playoffs and still failed. Pre-JDG TFC had no deisgnated player and had a playroll of more than $1 M more than any other non-DP team! We should have been able to handily make the playoffs that year if we used our resources properly.

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    @BHTC.

    We have also used magic allocation money and some liberties with the term DP when we had DeRo (as did NY and DC does now). He makes more than the league max while carries a max $335k cap hit and doesn't take a DP slot. He is going to take home $663k this year without the DP tag.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    Or the best way to market a new league in a very crowded sports market.
    Sure is. From a business standpoint it makes complete sense.

    From a competitive/Declan Hill perspective (author of "The Fix") it certainly leaves one wondering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    By all accounts, Johnston should have been beyond dead in the water after year three.
    He'd have been dead in the water after losing to Montreal (and only winning 1 of 4 against USL opposition) if it were up to me. Real soccer people above him in TFC's organization would have seen the constant turnover and how unprepared we were for the start of the '08 season - seriously, while the fans were busy setting records for travelling support our squad on opening day in Columbus looked worse than we ended '07 with - and had him on thin ice then. Failure in the inaugural Canadian Championship while being realistically out of the playoffs by late summer after two record goal scoring droughts the year before should have been enough.

    But excuse after excuse after excuse about Canadian players, plastic pitches, and rookie coaches was accepted while folks had fun heaping scorn on Robert, Cunningham, and Ruiz without seriously questioning the man who brought them here. The feel good "building" and "patience" narratives carried the day. That's why I get so frustrated by arguments for patience now: if you can see that something's not working "patience" isn't level headed; it's an abrogation of your responsibility to make a decision. Where would we be if Mo had been fired mid-'08 and new management had been brought in to prepare us for '09 then? How did patience with Mo serve us in that instance?

    The Whitecaps were mocked by many for firing Teitur early last year but they saw the writing on the wall, wrote off the rest of that year, and started early on getting ready for 2012. I thought it was a smart and courageous decision to acknowledge that they'd screwed up by letting him stay on for the transition from the NASL to MLS. Soehn was hilarious to make fun of but clearly nothing more than a place holder. The 'Caps are far from guaranteed to make the playoffs this year but, cup notwithstanding, Rennie clearly has them playing better and has made them harder to beat. Barring a TFC-like summer collapse they'll be at least in the discussion at the end of the year which is the best we've EVER achieved in 6 seasons!

    Yet I still see arguments that firing Winter now would doom NEXT year? It's ridiculous. The whole benefit of doing it early and not waiting 'til season ticket renewals or another losing/winless streak or official elimination from the playoffs is that we could get an early start on NOT fucking up 2013. Any new management will have a honeymoon where results aren't expected. I'd rather have that be the second, probably meaningless, half of 2012 than the first half of 2013!

    (Not disagreeing with you by the way; I know where you stand.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    It was clear he threw everything he had at making the playoffs and still failed. Pre-JDG TFC had no deisgnated player and had a playroll of more than $1 M more than any other non-DP team! We should have been able to handily make the playoffs that year if we used our resources properly.
    This, this, this! A million times this! We weren't spending a ton on 3 DPs and scrimping everywhere else; we were spending ~40% more than our opposition and spreading it around the entire roster.

    That was never sustainable no matter how much people liked having an aging core of Robinson, Brennan, Guevara, and Serioux: none of whom went on to play significant minutes in MLS after that season! Dichio (through no fault of his own) didn't even make the end of the season. Add to that De Rosario's HUGE non-DP salary and Chad Barrett's $200K+! Off the top of my head we were paying Pablo Vitti what? ~$300K to be a fringe starter????? And THEN added a DP???????????????

    Yet I still see comments blaming Preki for blowing that up? AFTER that team had melted down in our most important league game ever?

    You're so right: playoffs had to be LESS than the minimum for that team! Even pushing the season to the last game was already a failure. They needed a "miracle" to win the Voyageurs Cup and then couldn't score in 180 minutes against a different USL team! IMHO, along with a poorly balanced roster, that season points to the fallout from Mo's single biggest mistake: Carver. But that's whole other discussion and this was supposed to be a Del Piero thread!

  17. #77
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    I was skeptical about Mo after about 6 months ... and definitely wanted him fired after year two. I just think letting him continue after year three was insult to injury and probably mainly a bit of CYA by Anselmi after prematurely extending his contract a couple months before the NY meltdown.

  18. #78
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    lol donnybrook

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    I was skeptical about Mo after about 6 months ... and definitely wanted him fired after year two. I just think letting him continue after year three was insult to injury and probably mainly a bit of CYA by Anselmi after prematurely extending his contract a couple months before the NY meltdown.
    A bit? It's likely they knew that for what they were offering there weren't many takers. They probably had a very small FO payroll, no scouts and an almost complete reliance on agents to find players (and coaches, Carever was also repped by First Wave). Not a great position for a manager to be in (it would be interesting to hear exactly why Frank Yallop didn't want the job).

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Agreed. I followed the raptors extensively at the time and the man speaks the truth. At the time things were clicking nicely. Hell same goes for the Jays in the early days. I don't understand some sports fans in this city and their short-man complex when it comes to getting free agents.

    We're not going to compete with NY or LA on glamor but we have a very competitive city here in other aspects. People are just defeatist when it comes to this stuff. If the financial commitment is there and the franchises are run properly we should be competitive for free agents.
    The big difference between places like LA and New York, versus Toronto (as far as I can see), is that name players only ever seem to be interested in coming here when our team is really good. Look at the players the Knicks recently signed, despite being an abject failure of a team at the time.

    I don't think it's an absolute rule, and there are exceptions here and there, but I think it's mostly true. Places like New York and Los Angeles are cultural icons, inside and outside America, that Toronto is not. I don't think it's small-man syndrome to admit that - I still love Toronto, and think it's a great city. I just try to look at it from the perspective of a black basketball player growing up in South Carolina, or an Italian striker who spent their life in Italy.

    Maybe it's completely wrong, but then, this entire conversation is just ineffectual pissing in the wind anyway, right?

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Hahaha. And ppl rip on Italian football for its corruption.

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    Um yeah...I don't think anyone can reasonably compare the two.

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    Italian football is corrupt and rotten to the core. MLS is only "rotten" in so far as one team has been able to pull off some questionable roster moves., but because MLS teams' financial books are largely private, we can't really investigate.

    I don't think there's a comparison. Italian football is a whole other stratosphere of politics and corruption.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    The big difference between places like LA and New York, versus Toronto (as far as I can see), is that name players only ever seem to be interested in coming here when our team is really good. Look at the players the Knicks recently signed, despite being an abject failure of a team at the time.

    I don't think it's an absolute rule, and there are exceptions here and there, but I think it's mostly true. Places like New York and Los Angeles are cultural icons, inside and outside America, that Toronto is not. I don't think it's small-man syndrome to admit that - I still love Toronto, and think it's a great city. I just try to look at it from the perspective of a black basketball player growing up in South Carolina, or an Italian striker who spent their life in Italy.

    Maybe it's completely wrong, but then, this entire conversation is just ineffectual pissing in the wind anyway, right?

    - Scott
    Oh and I get that. When I talk about being ‘competitive’ on signings I’m not referring to TFC competing with LA and NY.

    In the Mo Johnston days, I literally had debates with people about being competitive with the dumpster-towns of MLS. How could we possibly hope to compare with the bustling urban metropolis of Columbus Ohio? And my point wasn’t even that Toronto was better, it was simply that we had something to sell and weren’t a town of lepers. If that’s not short-man syndrome on some people’s part I don’t know what is.

    We have plenty of evidence to suggest we can go out and get the players we need to win. Are we going to compete with the top cities head-to-head? No, but they can’t sign everyone and our money is just as green as everyone elses. Anyway, this isn't really about TFC and the way its operated as much as the mentality of some Toronto sports fans that perpetuates some sort of form of helplessness.

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    It's fine. LA will still suck. I honestly think it's better to get less name recognition and more commitment from a DP slot than a big name looking for a retirement cheque and a good time.

    The MLS is not an easy league to play in. Not because of the talent, but because of the travel, different climates and physicality. Anybody that is less than 100% committed will not succeed regardless of name. I think there are only a handful of big name players that would truly bring the passion required to succeed.

    It is what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Oh and I get that. When I talk about being ‘competitive’ on signings I’m not referring to TFC competing with LA and NY.

    In the Mo Johnston days, I literally had debates with people about being competitive with the dumpster-towns of MLS. How could we possibly hope to compare with the bustling urban metropolis of Columbus Ohio? And my point wasn’t even that Toronto was better, it was simply that we had something to sell and weren’t a town of lepers. If that’s not short-man syndrome on some people’s part I don’t know what is.

    We have plenty of evidence to suggest we can go out and get the players we need to win. Are we going to compete with the top cities head-to-head? No, but they can’t sign everyone and our money is just as green as everyone elses. Anyway, this isn't really about TFC and the way its operated as much as the mentality of some Toronto sports fans that perpetuates some sort of form of helplessness.
    I 100% agree with you that Toronto FC, in particular, can go out and get the players it needs to win. Mostly because I don't think you need ADP (or Thierry Henry, or David Beckham, or Rafa Marquez) to win in this league. It has been proven over and over. None of what I said excuses Toronto FC from their abject mediocrity.

    In leagues like the NBA and MLB, though, I do think we are at a bit of a tangible disadvantage with name-brand players. Not in 100% of cases, but the vast majority. I don't think the exceptions disprove the general rule.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    If you're going to tell me that a lot of the opinions that fly around this board are nothing but completely unsubstantiated personal opinions, derived from nothing but what they think is patently "obvious" - well sir, I'm going to have to ask you to step outside for a good old fashioned donnybrook.

    - Scott
    LOL!

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    re: High taxes in Canada

    Maybe some of the accountants can weigh in here but if a player maintains a principal residence out of Province/Country, do they not pay income tax in that jurisdiction? (makes our tax laws somewhat irrelevant)

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    Makes sense if Donovan is sold, otherwise I have to throw my hat in with the conspiracy theorists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    I think it's highly probable that either Landon Donovan or Robbie Keane will leave in summer transfer window. Donovan more likely

    I think this is going to be the case. He has made some high profile interviews basically saying he's lost the passion for playing, but if Everton were to call....

 

 

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