2012 TFC Salaries

[Greatest Ripoff]

Tell me, why would I, as a player, choose TFC Academy?

Because it is a step in the development pyramid. If you are under 18 years of age (note that the academy only goes up to U18) and have no european passport, where else would you go to develop as a footballer living in Ontario?

You could spends thousands of dollars a year in a private academy or get free training with TFCA. Then when you reach 18 year of age depending on your skill level, ambitions ect, you can go the NCAA route (like Skylar Thomas and Jordan Murrell), you can leave the academy and try to catch on overseas (like Alemen and Petrasso), you can sign with the first team and have a career in the MLS or use the MLS as a stepping to stone to a larger league, or you can be outright released.

You can look at what Morgan and Stinson did by signing with the first team and it has already lead to call ups with the senior CMNT.

So what exactly is the problem with this?

[Greatest Ripoff]

And if the NCAA route is superior and TFC treats it's home grown players so poorly why did Matt Stinson give up his college scholarships where he was team MVP to sign with TFC? Or maybe that is not the argument you are making? Your argument started that TFC was so bad because it had too many Canadians, to the academy is a waste of money and can't help this team and now it's that TFC treats its academy players poorly.

If you want to see poorly treated youth footballer you should read this article.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/georgequ...occer-players/

[Pookie]

And if the NCAA route is superior and TFC treats it's home grown players so poorly why did Matt Stinson give up his college scholarships where he was team MVP to sign with TFC? Or maybe that is not the argument you are making? Your argument started that TFC was so bad because it had too many Canadians, to the academy is a waste of money and can't help this team and now it's that TFC treats its academy players poorly.

If you want to see poorly treated youth footballer you should read this article.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/georgequ...occer-players/

Canadian content and the way that the Academy treats its grads are two different arguments. Canadian content in a US dominated league speaks to resources made available scouting and player idenfication. It also speaks to whether our talent pool north of the border is better than that of the US and questions why we focus on one route vs the other... though the sponsorship money from Adidas provides the smoking gun in my opinion.

The treatment of Academy grads is a different story altogether.

With that Forbes article, you are saying that they Academy grads are treated better than Brazilians so that's that? Not sure where you work but I'm beginning to wonder.

Here's the point that seems to be missing you. TFC has a choice as to what it pays its grads. Since we are supposedly banking on this system as the prime source of talent and this will supposedly differentiate us from the rest of the league.... all of whom have Academies... does it not make sense that we would want to provide an incentive for them to join ours and not give up on soccer as a career option?

What better marker for aspiring youth than to see how successful players have been accomodated with the first team? Let's throw aside salaries (I'm going to sound like Roogsy again... uh oh) but remember when DeRo talked about the way players were treated?

If you don't he said: "They wouldn't do even little things to help players out, like finding a flat. One player is commuting from Niagara Falls. Others are taking the bus to practice.

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soc.../17847281.html

I couldn't care less whether or not Silva's status required him to be paid that much. TFC had a choice to pay Morgan what they did. They opted to pay him almost half of what Silva gets. Again, by choice. This, from a club that talks about rewarding its players handsomely and the fact that TFC-A is a statement about them as an organization.

Not exactly red carpet treatment is it?

[Initial B]

I'm just trying to wrap my head around the Morgan-Silva comparison. Silva is in his first year making $79K and is 23 years old. Morgan is in his second year making $44K and is 21 years old. What are the odds that by the time Morgan reaches Silva's age he'll be making $79k? And by then he'll already have made $176K over 4 years, which is more than what Silva made while still at university at the same stage of his life.

[Pookie]

I'm just trying to wrap my head around the Morgan-Silva comparison. Silva is in his first year making $79K and is 23 years old. Morgan is in his second year making $44K and is 21 years old. What are the odds that by the time Morgan reaches Silva's age he'll be making $79k? And by then he'll already have made $176K over 4 years, which is more than what Silva made while still at university at the same stage of his life.

It's a fair point but what is Silva making in two years?

Further, what about after 10 years when their careers are over which one is likely to fair better in a post-soccer world? The one with the degree or the one with a high school diploma?

[MartinUtd]

Because people can't got to school with a loaded bank account and a drivers license that says age 30.

[Pookie]

Because it is a step in the development pyramid. If you are under 18 years of age (note that the academy only goes up to U18) and have no european passport, where else would you go to develop as a footballer living in Ontario?

You could spends thousands of dollars a year in a private academy or get free training with TFCA. Then when you reach 18 year of age depending on your skill level, ambitions ect, you can go the NCAA route (like Skylar Thomas and Jordan Murrell), you can leave the academy and try to catch on overseas (like Alemen and Petrasso), you can sign with the first team and have a career in the MLS or use the MLS as a stepping to stone to a larger league, or you can be outright released.

You can look at what Morgan and Stinson did by signing with the first team and it has already lead to call ups with the senior CMNT.

So what exactly is the problem with this?

First, the kids aren't spending the money. The parents are. For quality instruction and options, a parents are already indicating a willingness to spend on top notch clubs and private academies through SAAC.

While TFC-A is free, nothing ever comes without a catch. In this case, the players MLS rights belong to the club. What if Aleman's endeavors fail and he wants to return to NA? He has but one option, Vancouver who own his MLS rights. I know of a less than well known Academy player currently in a bit of a situation with the club over his rights and flexibility to pursue these other options.

On the surface, the concept of a North American wide Academy system that is free and provides development focus beyond what the OSA has done over the years is music to my ears.

At the same time, the choice isn't necessarily limited to TFC-A vs a Private Academy (or whatever comes of the OPDL in 2014). The choice is do I support my child in pursing a career in soccer when I realize that even if he is top of his class and earns a place on TFC's 1st team and the Canadian team, he is looking at a meager salary with limited international work options and no education to back him up if he falls from form, gets injured or otherwise.

Give me a reason to encourage him to pursue TFC-A. That the players are well treated. That they provide them with education grants. That he could realize a signing bonus. Otherwise, if he is going to be good enough to play on the first team maybe he goes the NCAA route and graduates with a salary of $79k and a free degree to go along with it.

[Pookie]

Because people can't got to school with a loaded bank account and a drivers license that says age 30.

Funny thing about life. People generally get married and have kids in their late 20s and 30s. Got any interest in going back to school full time?

Even $80k isn't a loaded bank account my friend.

[MartinUtd]

80k per year is. When I was 20 and in college I hung out with a couple of older folks who were retraining. They're presence was refreshing and they were the most motivated in the entire class. If somebody wants to forgo education to pursue a career as a pro athlete, good for them. Am I supposed to sympathize that they only make hundreds of thousands instead of millions? Give me a break.

[brad]

I'm just trying to wrap my head around the Morgan-Silva comparison. Silva is in his first year making $79K and is 23 years old. Morgan is in his second year making $44K and is 21 years old. What are the odds that by the time Morgan reaches Silva's age he'll be making $79k? And by then he'll already have made $176K over 4 years, which is more than what Silva made while still at university at the same stage of his life.

I'm okay with Morgan and other TFCA players on the low salary they are on today. Last year he was an academy product with some first team performances showing promise. This year he has staked his claim as our starting LB.

Assuming he continues this trajectory - the real talking point is what Morgan makes next year. If TFC leave him where he is or give him a tiny bump, that's where the damage will come in. It sends the message "work hard, establish yourself as a starter, and we'll still pay you poorly". They need to give him a raise to make his salary an equitable one for a starting fullback in the MLS. Then that sends the message that you can come up through the academy, work hard, take your chance in the first team and we will reward you with an equitable salary for an MLS player.

Of course an equitable MLS salary for most players is still poor compared to most other leagues, but TFC can't be held at fault for that, and overpaying TFCA players just to hang onto them is a bad precedent IMHO.

[brad]

80k per year is. When I was 20 and in college I hung out with a couple of older folks who were retraining. They're presence was refreshing and they were the most motivated in the entire class. If somebody wants to forgo education to pursue a career as a pro athlete, good for them. Am I supposed to sympathize they they only make hundreds of thousands instead of millions? Give me a break.

80k/year is a comfortable salary, but hardly a pad your bank account sort of salary in Toronto unless you still live a college lifestyle through out. And it's especially not that much if throw a mortgage into the picture and/or a family to support.

[Pookie]

I'm okay with Morgan and other TFCA players on the low salary they are on today. Last year he was an academy product with some first team performances showing promise. This year he has staked his claim as our starting LB.

Assuming he continues this trajectory - the real talking point is what Morgan makes next year. If TFC leave him where he is or give him a tiny bump, that's where the damage will come in. It sends the message "work hard, establish yourself as a starter, and we'll still pay you poorly". They need to give him a raise to make his salary an equitable one for a starting fullback in the MLS. Then that sends the message that you can come up through the academy, work hard, take your chance in the first team and we will reward you with an equitable salary for an MLS player.

Though we were debating Attakora's semantics over true Academy player or simply local player who joined us at 18, does he not set the precedent here? He came in young, earned national caps and played as starter for $30k per year.

Of course an equitable MLS salary for most players is still poor compared to most other leagues, but TFC can't be held at fault for that, and overpaying TFCA players just to hang onto them is a bad precedent IMHO.

I'm not saying overpay them. But what would be fundamentally wrong with paying him a salary at least equivalent to Silva? Or if not Silva, Maund at $59k? Of the player acquisition routes we have, NCAA players are tiered higher than Academy grads on the payscale. This is a choice to not to at least match that. If DeRo is right, it gets even worse when it comes to feeling like a valued team member.

I manage sales reps for a living and most of them have T4's well into the 6 figures. You'd be surprised at the amount of "Human Resource" created flack we get if there is even the appearance of bonus that wasn't rightly earned to a colleague in a sales contest. Specifically, we are talking about a $2,500 award.

Equity is a workplace issue and it is a fundamental issue in team building. Especially when the salaries are made public.

[MartinUtd]

$80k one and half times what an MBA makes right out of college. Not what I want to be making at 40, but from 22-27 that's damn good money.

I'm just saying the argument that former modestly paid pro athlete can't go back to school is a total farce. What's the underlying point? They've been coddled with the pro athlete life style and have no work ethic left? I can't believe this is even up for debate.

[brad]

$80k one and half times what an MBA makes right out of college. Not what I want to be making at 40, but from 22-27 that's damn good money.

I'm just saying the argument that former modestly paid pro athlete can't go back to school is a total farce. What's the underlying point? They've been coddled with the pro athlete life style and have no work ethic left? I can't believe this is even up for debate.

I see your point, but the difference is the MBA is building equity in a career and should watch their salary continue to grow, while the footballer is looking at a total reset career wise. Plus, the other difference is that if avenues are open to other teams, the footballer has the opportunity to make way more money elsewhere while playing.

And of course they can go back to college - as anyone can. But it takes some planning and smarts financially to be able to do so, and some sacrifices as well. Chance are that footballer in their 30's probably has a mortgage to pay, a car payment or lease, a good chance they have a family to support as well. I don't think it's so much about being coddled as an athlete as it is about having to make some hard choices at a very different point in your life.

[ag futbol]

$80k one and half times what an MBA makes right out of college. Not what I want to be making at 40, but from 22-27 that's damn good money.

I'm just saying the argument that former modestly paid pro athlete can't go back to school is a total farce. What's the underlying point? They've been coddled with the pro athlete life style and have no work ethic left? I can't believe this is even up for debate.

This argument goes a bit like the people who say "I don't think player X should complain about money, I'd play professional sports for free!". All well and good, but what that person forgets is that the market for them playing professional sports, even at zero cost is non-existent. I would not pay to watch someone with no talent play professional sports, a professional team would not put them on a roster to play, nobody would show up at the stadium to watch a recreational player kick a ball around.

For the kids who we're paying to be professional players, we're asking them to make a career choice towards playing the game full-time and give up other opportunities such as go to college, etc, etc, etc... Therefore if you really want "the best" or even something decent to fill these spots you have to compensate people for the opportunities they are missing. Hell, we're getting better players at these spots now with a 40k wage than we were 5 years ago with a 12k "apprentice pay".

In my opinion, MLS should raise the minimum wage to something like 60-80k per year. That would prevent guys like Dan Gargan living off peace-meal despite being a part of what holds this crazy league together. It would also offer prospects a more reasonable starting salary that they can provide living expenses as well as sock-away and pay for college after a short pro career if they are disciplined enough.