2012 TFC Salaries

[Richard]

That's fine. DC United has 17.

Point is simply that since Nick Dasovic was North American Scout (largely in name only) we haven't replaced him... to the best of my knowledge. That is a big reason why we are where we are and have been there for 5 years running.

The USA is further along the development pathway than we are. Whether one likes the NCAA route or not the fact is they are collectively stronger at soccer than we are. This is also a USA focused league with specific restrictions on international imports. To not look to the USA as a source, perhaps the primary source of players, is foolish.

I disagree, we have not been good the past 5 years because we have not had good enough players. Just because a player is "American" and playing in MLS does not make them an automatic fit or good, TFC need to aquire good players for MLS and nationality should have no influence. American teams have more of them because they are comfortable playing their, as far as im concerned the player can be from timbuktu if he has skills.

MLS salary rules are like a CIA guarded secret. It is stated that the league max salary is $335k for any player. Therefore, the best guess is that teams employing his services (and those of other higher-than-the-max-non-DPs such as Conner Casey and others) have been using Allocation money to pay down the cap hit.

Allocation money is MLS' magic solution to everything. In 2010 they said it was made available "for exceptional circumstances as deemed appropriate by the competition committee." Further, the amounts made available were (and are) never disclosed. The competition committee was in essence, the league itself. In practical terms the league can award a sum of money to any team for any reason that it thinks will impact competitiveness or for any other circumstance and this amount is never disclosed. Sounds great doesn't it?

This reference was removed in subsequent years but it still exists.

Therefore, DeRo and a few others that exceed the league cap and are non-DPs were essentially allowed to circumvent the cap based on the allocation money flexibility. It is most likely that the teams are on the hook for the salary that exceeds the league max cap.

Yet another reason why the salary cap is more of a moving target and folks are best not to think of it as they do the NHL cap.

I wish there was a thread to discuss league salaries in general, but i almost fell off my chair when i saw Barret in LA is still getting payed 200k+.

[Pookie]

I disagree, we have not been good the past 5 years because we have not had good enough players. Just because a player is "American" and playing in MLS does not make them an automatic fit or good, TFC need to aquire good players for MLS and nationality should have no influence. American teams have more of them because they are comfortable playing their, as far as im concerned the player can be from timbuktu if he has skills.

Actually, there are more Americans on US based MLS team rosters because the MLS Roster Rules indicate that teams can only have 8 International Players and the rest have to be US Domestic players. (they can trade International slots but everyone starts with 8). Canadians count as International Roster Players for US teams.

For Canadian teams, they have this same 8 International player limit (TFC has actually traded for International slots and has 12). They also have to employ 3 Canadians. The rest of these players must come from either the US or Canada as US players count as Domestic players for the Canadian teams.

In building a team, TFC has elected to sign 9 Canadians. All of whom would take an international roster spot if traded to the USA. This makes them a curious choice as an asset. Further, they have decided that since we have met the quota of 3, the other 6 that were signed were better than any other option available in the USA. Like it or not, the USA is a deeper talent pool and we have very little, if any, scouting resources looking at that market for talent.

I'm with you. The best available players should play. If we aren't looking at the USA though, how do we know that the players we have are the best available?

[Chevy]

this one raised my eyebrows:
DC DeRosario Dwayne M $ 617,857.20 $ 663,190.53
I thought that the most a non-DP could make was 500k, and even then that had to be bought down with Allocation to 335k. How can he not be a DP at 663k?
can anyone clarify this?

I believe that allocation can be used to buy the salary down to 335k and eliminate the need for the DP Tag. Regardless - a big LOL @Derosario. There was no way this dude was gonna get his cheque signed.

[joeyjones]

Actually, there are more Americans on US based MLS team rosters because the MLS Roster Rules indicate that teams can only have 8 International Players and the rest have to be US Domestic players. (they can trade International slots but everyone starts with 8). Canadians count as International Roster Players for US teams.

For Canadian teams, they have this same 8 International player limit (TFC has actually traded for International slots and has 12). They also have to employ 3 Canadians. The rest of these players must come from either the US or Canada as US players count as Domestic players for the Canadian teams.

In building a team, TFC has elected to sign 9 Canadians. All of whom would take an international roster spot if traded to the USA. This makes them a curious choice as an asset. Further, they have decided that since we have met the quota of 3, the other 6 that were signed were better than any other option available in the USA. Like it or not, the USA is a deeper talent pool and we have very little, if any, scouting resources looking at that market for talent.

I'm with you. The best available players should play. If we aren't looking at the USA though, how do we know that the players we have are the best available?

the rules should evolve to count Canadians as domestic for all MLS teams....maybe a start could be that if a Canadian is on a CA MLS team they count as domestic for the league, e.g. if we trade Cann to a US MLS team, he still counts as domestic for that team..

[Auzzy]

Isn't Paul Mariner also supposed to be doing North American scouting? You would think, with his experience, contacts, and good reputation from New England, he would be able to do that. But I haven't seen much evidence of that (although a few signings like Avila are decent).

[Blizzard]

the rules should evolve to count Canadians as domestic for all MLS teams....maybe a start could be that if a Canadian is on a CA MLS team they count as domestic for the league, e.g. if we trade Cann to a US MLS team, he still counts as domestic for that team..

It's a huge kettle of fish. Us oldsters who followed the original NASL will recall that Canadians and Americans were equal in that loop. Ya, it would be awesome if it could be the same in MLS but it ain't gonna happen as the league was started to faciliate the growth of the game in the USA and to assist their World Cup team. They aren't interested in helping out Canada. Indeed, there are many American fans who would just as soon not have any Canadian teams in the league (let alone count Canadians as domestic).

We can't forget, it's their league.

[jabbronies]

Isn't Paul Mariner also supposed to be doing North American scouting? You would think, with his experience, contacts, and good reputation from New England, he would be able to do that. But I haven't seen much evidence of that (although a few signings like Avila are decent).

Avila was traded for. He was sitting on the bench in Dallas about to be loaned out then we sent Maicon Santos over to bring him here.

[joeyjones]

It's a huge kettle of fish. Us oldsters who followed the original NASL will recall that Canadians and Americans were equal in that loop. Ya, it would be awesome if it could be the same in MLS but it ain't gonna happen as the league was started to faciliate the growth of the game in the USA and to assist their World Cup team. They aren't interested in helping out Canada. Indeed, there are many American fans who would just as soon not have any Canadian teams in the league (let alone count Canadians as domestic). We can't forget, it's their league.

iirc, Garber has indicated on several occasions that they are in fact interested in helping out Canada. and, it's not their league anymore, it's our league. there are now 3 teams in Canada, and most likely all 3 will be financially successful in the near future (although TFC has seen declining attendance) and be contributing revenue to the league.

[Yohan]

iirc, Garber has indicated on several occasions that they are in fact interested in helping out Canada. and, it's not their league anymore, it's our league. there are now 3 teams in Canada, and most likely all 3 will be financially successful in the near future (although TFC has seen declining attendance) and be contributing revenue to the league.

let's put it this way. MLS is not going to help Canada at the expense of USA

[ag futbol]

let's put it this way. MLS is not going to help Canada at the expense of USA

That's a good way of putting it. I think MLS wants Canada to be successful to the extent that it helps their business... and that's about it. I don't think the current conditions are particularly favorable.

One thing of note though: The new CSA president seems to be more proactive about requiring Canadian clubs to stock more Canadian players. Despite their public pro-Canadian stance, both TFC and VWFC have lobbied in the past for less required Canadians on their rosters (which has to be cleared by the CSA). Previous administration was accommodating in this regard, the new one is making is sound like it's going to be a sticking point. So TFC could suddenly find themselves in a favorable position in comparison to Mtl and Vancouver which have largely ignored Canadians in building their rosters.

From my POV, I agree with the CSA (first time for everything). Three required roster spots is a complete joke, especially considering there are a number of spots available for lesser professionals that don't necessarily have to play.

[ManUtd4ever]

From my POV, I agree with the CSA (first time for everything). Three required roster spots is a complete joke, especially considering there are a number of spots available for lesser professionals that don't necessarily have to play.

Agreed. I think that has to be the lowest domestic quota in any league worldwide.

[Wooster_TFC]

I believe that it is not possible to make Canadians domestic on US teams due to the US labour laws.

There's something in there about not being able to instate a hiring rule that puts a specific set of international potential employees on an equal or better level than Americans, if I recall correctly. So, MLS would have to make all internationals count as domestic.

[prizby]

Again with citing the exception to the rule.

Clint Dempsey
Diego Forlan
Didier Drogba
Miroslav Klose
Ian Wright
Edin Dzeko
Dado Prso
Hulk

[Wooster_TFC]

Clint Dempsey
Diego Forlan
Didier Drogba
Miroslav Klose
Ian Wright
Edin Dzeko
Dado Prso
Hulk

Stuart Holden
Geoff Cameron
Brian McBride
Maurice Edu
Brad Freidel
Tim Howard


There are a few examples of MLS teams getting several good solid years out of players before they headed off to Europe.

[Oldtimer]

I believe that it is not possible to make Canadians domestic on US teams due to the US labour laws.

There's something in there about not being able to instate a hiring rule that puts a specific set of international potential employees on an equal or better level than Americans, if I recall correctly. So, MLS would have to make all internationals count as domestic.

If they cared, they could get the law changed. Anything is possible in America.
Garber could have slipped in a word with Obama when he was meeting the Galaxy. Obama seems to be a genuine fan and aware of MLS issues.
However, I take it as lip service. They don't care to promote Canadians that much.

They don't mind, actually prefer it if Guatemala or Honduras are displaced by Canada, however they would never want the CMNT be a significant threat to USMNT dominance of CONCACAF.

[Shway]

Clint Dempsey
Diego Forlan
Didier Drogba
Miroslav Klose
Ian Wright
Edin Dzeko
Dado Prso
Hulk

This list is definitely a farce, what determines these players as late bloomers? age v team v best professional season ?
Just cause a player doesn't play for a top club from their 20's-25 doesn't mean that their not a recognized in Europe.

Forlan bloomed from Independiete which got him recognize at Man U, to Villareal, to Atletico Madrid, to Inter Milan

Klose how can he be considered a late bloomer if he was with the German National team since 2001 (age 22)

Hulks 25, no way he is a late bloomer, hes been at Porto since 2008, and has been known.

Dzeko 26 - again not a late bloomer, he bloomed for Wolfsburg in his second season at age 21

[Greatest Ripoff]

To me, expecting a team to compete in a US dominated league with just 6 Americans on it is just foolish.

And the best player currently in the league and possible of all time is Canadian. So what exactly is your point?

[Greatest Ripoff]

That's fine. DC United has 17.

Point is simply that since Nick Dasovic was North American Scout (largely in name only) we haven't replaced him... to the best of my knowledge. That is a big reason why we are where we are and have been there for 5 years running.

The USA is further along the development pathway than we are. Whether one likes the NCAA route or not the fact is they are collectively stronger at soccer than we are. This is also a USA focused league with specific restrictions on international imports. To not look to the USA as a source, perhaps the primary source of players, is foolish.

The US is farther along because they have a league with an american player quota. Before the introduction of MLS, Canada use to be ahead of the US. If the Canadian teams (or if there were many more canadian teams) spent more time developing and playing Canadians we could be a much better nation in developing players. Look at how many Canadians were playing in the old NSAL and how well much better we were compared to the US back then.

[Shway]

Clint Dempsey
Diego Forlan
Didier Drogba
Miroslav Klose
Ian Wright
Edin Dzeko
Dado Prso
Hulk

This list is definitely a farce, what determines these players as late bloomers? age v team v best professional season ?
Just cause a player doesn't play for a top club from their 20's-25 doesn't mean that their not a recognized in Europe.

Forlan bloomed from Independiete which got him recognize at Man U, to Villareal, to Atletico Madrid, to Inter Milan

Klose how can he be considered a late bloomer if he was with the German National team since 2001 (age 22)

Hulks 25, no way he is a late bloomer, hes been at Porto since 2008, and has been known.

Dzeko 26 - again not a late bloomer, he bloomed for Wolfsburg in his second season at age 21

[prizby]

This list is definitely a farce, what determines these players as late bloomers? age v team v best professional season ?
Just cause a player doesn't play for a top club from their 20's-25 doesn't mean that their not a recognized in Europe.

Forlan bloomed from Independiete which got him recognize at Man U, to Villareal, to Atletico Madrid, to Inter Milan

Klose how can he be considered a late bloomer if he was with the German National team since 2001 (age 22)

Hulks 25, no way he is a late bloomer, hes been at Porto since 2008, and has been known.

Dzeko 26 - again not a late bloomer, he bloomed for Wolfsburg in his second season at age 21

if you follow the posts, i am referring to Ensco's post about how supposively we will never have any talented players in Toronto because they all go to Europe as teenagers yet had these players been in Canada, they probably wouldn't have left for Europe as teenagers and I am sure there are many others that could make this list

[ag futbol]

I'm going to derail this thread for a second to make a point I had made in the news thread. TFC it would seem, in comparison to other teams has very few professionals earning between the 100-250 range. A lot of money is tied up by dp's and we have quite a few less serviceable meat-and-potatoes types. While we do have some bargains at under 100k, I think more so we lack guys earning that middle range who can realistically be expected to contribute.

I'd trade some of our "depth" for quality IMO.

[Pookie]

I'm going to derail this thread for a second to make a point I had made in the news thread. TFC it would seem, in comparison to other teams has very few professionals earning between the 100-250 range. A lot of money is tied up by dp's and we have quite a few less serviceable meat-and-potatoes types. While we do have some bargains at under 100k, I think more so we lack guys earning that middle range who can realistically be expected to contribute.

I'd trade some of our "depth" for quality IMO.

I agree and have been trying to shed light on our in-experience in a number of posts now. Even with our older DPs, our starting roster is one of the youngest in the league. Without them, we are the youngest.

As for the point on Canadian quotas you made earlier, this is where mis-management within TFC shines. The quota was at 8. Mo started to lobby with Vancouver, to lower it to 0. Mo left, Earl came in and took his seat at the table. Quota was set at 0. CSA balked and the number was set at 3. Earl and company then proceeded to sign 9.

If we had a competitive advantage in terms of Canadian signings and knew were were we going to be at or above the original quota within a few weeks of it being lowered, why in the hell would we lobby with Vancouver and essentially let them off the hook?

[Yohan]

I'm going to derail this thread for a second to make a point I had made in the news thread. TFC it would seem, in comparison to other teams has very few professionals earning between the 100-250 range. A lot of money is tied up by dp's and we have quite a few less serviceable meat-and-potatoes types. While we do have some bargains at under 100k, I think more so we lack guys earning that middle range who can realistically be expected to contribute.

I'd trade some of our "depth" for quality IMO.

3 DPs on salary cap is killing this team. thank goodness for couple of bargains or else this team would be really screwed

[AlanO]

I'm going to derail this thread for a second to make a point I had made in the news thread. TFC it would seem, in comparison to other teams has very few professionals earning between the 100-250 range. A lot of money is tied up by dp's and we have quite a few less serviceable meat-and-potatoes types. While we do have some bargains at under 100k, I think more so we lack guys earning that middle range who can realistically be expected to contribute.

Someone somewhere (bigsoccer? can't remember) calculated some stats based on the salary list. TFC has one of the highest average salaries in the league, but one of the lowest medians. This backs up your point.

Kinda begs the question: is having three DPs actually a good idea for an MLS team? LA made it work last year, but this season has really exposed their lack of depth. Having three players eating up a third of the cap space might not be the right way to go...

[Yohan]

Someone somewhere (bigsoccer? can't remember) calculated some stats based on the salary list. TFC has one of the highest average salaries in the league, but one of the lowest medians. This backs up your point.

Kinda begs the question: is having three DPs actually a good idea for an MLS team? LA made it work last year, but this season has really exposed their lack of depth. Having three players eating up a third of the cap space might not be the right way to go...

it's not. i'm always of belief that DPs should be used as final pieces to a well formed squad, not used as instant plug. Most MLS Cup winning teams since 07 do not have a DP. team chemistry and solid coaching > DPs

[Roogsy]

it's not. i'm always of belief that DPs should be used as final pieces to a well formed squad, not used as instant plug. Most MLS Cup winning teams since 07 do not have a DP. team chemistry and solid coaching > DPs

I agree 100%.

[ensco]

if you follow the posts, i am referring to Ensco's post about how supposively we will never have any talented players in Toronto because they all go to Europe as teenagers yet had these players been in Canada, they probably wouldn't have left for Europe as teenagers and I am sure there are many others that could make this list

You have some examples. I could produce a list of 200 or 500 or 5,000 that support my point.

The Academy is a mirage for TFC fans. It is not going to produce outstanding difference-making players for TFC's senior team. It will produce decent players, as it is currently doing. Once in a while we may even do better than that, as others will with their academies. But those players are not better (and are probably worse) than the NCAA players that they are replacing, and that will be true for the foreseeable future.

Can someone summarize TFC's current scouting resource commitment? That's what we all need to see - how that stacks up. Scouting is damn expensive, and you don't get to show the money you spend on it as an asset when you sell the business.

Good scouting, like a positive work environment, or a long-term customer base, is a long-term intangible asset. Teachers/MLSE absolutely stink at developing and building long-term intangible assets, because they cost money but you don't recoup them if you're a short-term owner, like Teachers/MLSE is.

[Ajax TFC]

The academy can't be relied on to make us a great team. We have to have a winning team that kids will watch and want to play for, otherwise they will always leave for bigger and better places. How many kids currently in the academy grew up watching TFC and idolizing TFC players? I imagine VERY few, and probably none idolized anyone. Right now kids have no reason to want to play for TFC rather than for example, QPR

[prizby]

The academy can't be relied on to make us a great team. We have to have a winning team that kids will watch and want to play for, otherwise they will always leave for bigger and better places. How many kids currently in the academy grew up watching TFC and idolizing TFC players? I imagine VERY few, and probably none idolized anyone. Right now kids have no reason to want to play for TFC rather than for example, QPR

how many current kids would have professional opportunities if there was no academy?

[Ajax TFC]

how many current kids would have professional opportunities if there was no academy?

With TFC? probably zero. I'm not saying the Academy is useless. I'm saying that the best kids have no reason to want to play with TFC. If they get the option to go to a bigger club, why wouldn't they take it? For example, Feyenoord has the best academy in the Netherlands, but all their best talents get poached by Arsenal and Chelsea. Ajax on the other hand doesn't have as great of a development program, but they manage to hold onto their players better simply because they're a more successful club.