What adidas info? Please link.Originally Posted by narduch
What adidas info? Please link.
can someone show me a source that proves the base amount is what counts against the cap and not guaranteed compensation?
if it is base, then why the hell are we not paying every one $44,000 and giving them big fucking bonuses
nelson rivas at $50k...any chance Montreal gave him a big signing bonus before he/them joined MLS?
That the Adidas partnership subsidizes the MLS Academies. Kids wear their jerseys and MLS teams benefit financially as a result of the deal. Essentially looking to debunk the belief that MLSE invested in the Academy 100% with its own funds, and the belief that they operate this as somewhat of a non-profit/at a loss, give back to the community kind of venture.
It makes the claim of throwing "$17M" into it as an indication of their commitment to winning a little less sexy.
From the official press release:
PORTLAND, Ore. and NEW YORK, Aug. 30 /PRNewswire/ -- adidas and Major League Soccer today announced an extension to their strategic partnership agreement aimed at further elevating soccer in the United States and developing opportunities for young players. The partnership extends adidas' position as the official athletic sponsor and product supplier for the MLS through 2018.
Core to the new agreement is a dedicated focus on youth development and programming to help shape the future of the sport inNorth America.
And from Sports Business Journal
"While outfitting elite players in Adidas jerseys was important, the prospect of outfitting youth players was equally important to the new deal. MLS clubs have begun developing youth academies for soccer players ranging in age from 9 to 18 years old and currently work with more than 20,000 youth soccer players nationwide. Most wear MLS replica jerseys made by Adidas.
The structure of the new deal guarantees that Adidas will have a direct pipeline to some of the most talented young soccer players in the U.S. and Canada as teams such as FC Dallas expand their youth ranks from 2,500 to 5,000 players in the coming years.
“The part of our strategy that resonated most with Adidas is our commitment to youth and player development,” Garber said. “It’s their commitment to that with us that we’re most excited about.”
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2010/08/20100830/This-Weeks-News/Adidas-Ups-MLS-Bet-With-$200M-Deal.aspx
Ah thanks.
But really how much of that would go to an academy on a yearly basis, $1-2million, if that?
I always figured the point of the Academy, while there was sunken costs, was to recoup the money through transfers/sales.
I find the whole veneration for what MLSE is doing with the Academy to be absurd (guys repping each other for pointing it out ffs). Most MLS teams do it, it's really unclear that it'll generate any kind of competitive advantage here, and the financial costs, and benefits, have very little to do with the TFC senior team. There are labour laws in North America that don't allow most of the practices that go on at Euro academies - guys will be free agents at 18 no matter how great TFC's Academy is. Our team is using it's scarce resources to fund a project that is almost guaranteed not to find great players for TFC in MLS. Our success, or lack thereof, will still mostly hinge on all the other places there are to find players, and we don't seem to do very well at most of them.
There is perhaps not enough understanding here in the difference between a capital investment and an operating budget. MLSE clearly loves the former as it relates to TFC (I put the defensive spend on DPs in this category, although that's a separate complex topic), that's nice, but those kinds of investments go on the balance sheet and theoretically get recouped when the asset is sold. That's not spending, and it's wholly insufficient when they're not very keen on being competitive on the operating budget.
They have built a nice house, but are burning the furniture to heat it.
Last edited by ensco; 05-26-2012 at 09:57 AM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
based on what?
Well, if you figure that the deal was $200M, each team in theory should receive a max of just over $10M each for their operations n some way shape or form. Whether all of that goes into the Academy is somewhat moot as it would conceviebly roll into a top line budget number. As for annual operation, your number sounds about right. To be clear though, MLSE isn't claiming investments of $17M annually.
It wouldn't surprise me if there were additonal incentives for expansion as FC Dallas is doing in increasing their numbers and we are doing in rolling out the Academy to U12 players this year.
I doubt that's actually true. If the only short term benefit outside of DPs is scouting and coaching, do you have evidence that a team like Columbus has more money invested in those elements more than TFC? They may have a better system in place or better scouts or better coaches but that's not true evidence with regard to the money invested. It just makes the FO incompetent.
The best teenage players are going to Europe.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
dont think a guy like luca toni was considered one of the best teenagers...there are still plenty of late bloomers
I think you are correct on a number of fronts.
In essence TFC Academy is part of a league wide "Academy" movement. With Montreal adding an Academy this year, all teams will have one. Not surprising since the league is a single entity owner and owns all the teams. At the basis of it is a deal with Adidas that appears to be based on the idea of giving Adidas access to younger players. The more younger players they have, in theory, the more attractive the next deal will be (due in 2018). Keep in mind the current deal was worth $200M. Not bad.
From a player development perspective, you are right here too. TFC makes no money if a player graduates to the first team. They only make money if that player progresses from the Academy or the first team to a transfer situation. The incentive is based on the idea of selling the player, provided they can get him under contract first. Keven Aleman is an example of a player whose MLS rights were shipped by Toronto to Vancouver and the player is now playing for a 2nd division team in Spain with no compensation due to the Whitecaps.
In terms of using the Academy to develop a championship team if it were the holy grail, all MLS teams currently in possession of it.
Again with citing the exception to the rule.
you can kinda argue that most MLS players are late bloomers, at least those that went through NCAA route by world standards...
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
More like their development has been delayed by a system that sets up a timeliness that puts NA at a disadvantage to the rest of the world.
The kids with obvious skills will bypass that system.
as long as NCAA exists, a lot of kids will be held back. but NCAA is not going to go away, until NA is saturated with professional teams. otherwise only a fraction of kids will go through academies.
NA is so big that sometimes even the best kids will end up getting missed, because they just don't get spotted
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2011/...dobson_on_tfc/
http://www.stalbertgazette.com/artic...template=cpArt
The "$17.5 million academy and training facility" isn't only about the Academy:
Did MLSE receive financial support from the Ontario government as VWFC has from the government of BC?
I don't think so. There would have been a big announcement about it if they did.
Its possible that they got a sweetheart lease agreement from Downsview Park though.
---------------
If you can produce one real starter every season or so from your Academy, you are doing way better than the competition. Expecting to field a team mostly made up of your Academy isn't very likely. Most teams in the world don't do that, let alone those in North America. TFC isn't reinventing the wheel here. Other MLS teams have Academies too. I consider this a part of doing business. Not that it necessarily gives TFC that much a competitive advantage over the rest of the league, unless everything goes right.
As it stands today, you still need good scouting, good drafting and good cap management to be good in MLS. The Academy helps too but it has to be a part of the overall picture. You can't throw all of your eggs into the Academy basket.
I don't think any other team in MLS is making the level of investment MLSE is putting into academy program. some teams barely have something resembling an academy, because basically MLS FO forced them to have one
spot on. less people in FO, more people in infrastructure of the team (IE scouting, fitness, etc)As it stands today, you still need good scouting, good drafting and good cap management to be good in MLS. The Academy helps too but it has to be a part of the overall picture. You can't throw all of your eggs into the Academy basket.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
It should be interesting over the next few years as more clubs bankrupt themselves on salaries in Europe to see salaries come down a bit while the MLS cap goes up and we get to see more quality in our league.
Re: Eck and Hall, I am finally seeing Winter's plan with Hall, then bring in Eck for 'the kill'
Don't get why Plata keeps starting though, seems he is the perfect 60 minute sub???
Agreed.
Personally, I have a hard time believing they've gone all-in with the academy program. I would have felt a lot better if they had hired people like Patrick Tobo, Rafael Cabral (sp?), or even kept Nick Dasovic on staff. Asides from that, as Demine has pointed out in the past, some of the younger teams lack a league to play in, don't train that often, and have difficultly scooping up the best talent. A decent part of the talent that's left over is getting poached.
I would not hold by breath believing this is the key to the future. As I've said from the start, TFCA can't assume because they exist they have a monopoly on talent. They have to start doing a way better job selling the merits of their program and identifying players locally. Great opportunities are slipping through the cracks.
Who has this expectation?
I think the arguments over the Adidas partnership come into play here. When did MLSE start investing in the Academy? How does MLSE investment and the structure of the TFC Academy differ from other teams, if at all? Is it possible that the extended partnership with Adidas was a way to encourage other MLS squads to invest more in their academies or perhaps help pay for them? Maybe the extended partnership with Adidas helps to mitigate any advantage more prosperous teams might have had?
One of the quotes I posted above has Bob de Klerk saying exactly this. Who has decided that TFC is now an organization which exclusively focuses on its Academy? Where does this notion, that funds allocated for the academy come at the expense of other areas, come from? I think there has been an effort by TFC to learn the lessons from clubs with renowned youth programs. Is there something wrong with that approach? Why isn't the expectation that management be successful at developing talent while, at the same time, identifying the right players to compliment the team from outside sources?
I've seen quite a few posters on this forum (usually when defending Winter) espouse that we can't expect results until the Academy start churning out players that can play 'total football'.
I personally don't subscribe to this theory.
Adidas partnership was announced in 2010. MLSE's announcement of the $17M investment was made in 2011
Yes. I believe MLSE followed the money.Is it possible that the extended partnership with Adidas was a way to encourage other MLS squads to invest more in their academies or perhaps help pay for them?
Well, in 2005 the USA was ranked 5th in the world. They have fluttered in the Top 30 over that time, reaching 14th as recent as 2009. The current USMNT has 9 of 23 players coming from the NCAA route. I wouldn't say it is a complete bust.
TFC Academy has been playing in the CSL since 2008. Doneil Henry was signed to a pro contract and assigned to the first club on August 26, 2010. The stated $17.5 million was for training facilities that aren't just used by the academy. The first team needed a proper place to train too.
Perhaps...or it could just be an extension of a program already in place for a considerable amount of time. You are entitled to believe what you want to, but it's easier to convince others when you supply proof. In 2007 the Whitecaps started their multi-million dollar residency program. Was their initial investment done with the $17.5 million in guaranteed provincial funding the government of BC offered years later?
Five years ago, the Vancouver Whitecaps made waves with their announcement of a million-dollar residency program for top youth players.
Since then, it has changed dramatically.
From a focus on selling players to Europe to developing talent for the MLS team.
From around 20 kids to close to 80.
From a mix of domestic and international players to an all-Canadian, B.C.-heavy focus.
From an under-19 team to a program that features players at the U-18, U-16, U-14 and, recently, U-13 level.
From local competition and foreign tours, to competing in the best age-group leagues in the U.S.
And from a modest staff to one that features full-time coaches, a director of player development and an extensive medical team.
For all the change, though, the residency program remains very much a work in progress.
Certainly, ownership's commitment can't be questioned. Costs, according to sources, are somewhere around $2.5 million to $3 million annually.http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Gr...515/story.html
Many MLS teams had "Academy" teams in fact quite a few before TFC came into the league. "Academy" was a fairly common name for "reserve" teams.
Regardless, TFC did have players not on their first team that were practicing and developing. My point is simply that MLSE trumpets their investment in the Academy as a cornerstone of their "proof" of commitment to building a championship.
If a championship was important, this investment in training and developing players would have been lock step with the announcement of the franchise award. Not 4 years later. And certainly not just a year after the Adidas deal and details were made available.
(but this is all understandable when you recognize that TFC was born as a part of stadium deal, not as a result of a desire to win championships)
My best guess is that the Adidas partnership provided funding for clubs to develop Academy programs with a mandate from the league to expand their youth focus. As an example, it's why FC Dallas was cited as doubling in size to 5,000 kids and explains why our focus has been expanded to include U12. This focus will enable the league to ask for more than $200M the next time.
MLSE lauds this investment as a cornerstone of the franchise. As has been highlighted, their investment isn't unique. In fact, Vancouver is already in partnership with the BC Soccer Association and has a similar "investment" in their program.
It isn't likely that the mandate of this program is to develop first team talent. As ensco highlights, a club's incentive is to sell a player. And focusing on talent from a limited pool of players that learned their trade in an OSA environment sounds a lot like fishing in a dead lake.
Now that said, as a parent and supporter of Canada's teams, I think that a focus on youth development is clearly needed and I applaud the direction. I really don't care that it came from a monetary incentive.
As a fan of TFC though, I'm not buying the fact that the Academy will singlehandedly change our fortunes. I'm embarrassed by our lack of scouting on the North American and International scene. To me, expecting a team to compete in a US dominated league with just 6 Americans on it is just foolish.
Last edited by Pookie; 05-27-2012 at 05:40 PM.
6 americans, but Burgos, Frei, Johnson, Kocic all came thru the US system
this one raised my eyebrows:
DC DeRosario Dwayne M $ 617,857.20 $ 663,190.53
I thought that the most a non-DP could make was 500k, and even then that had to be bought down with Allocation to 335k. How can he not be a DP at 663k?
can anyone clarify this?
That's fine. DC United has 17.
Point is simply that since Nick Dasovic was North American Scout (largely in name only) we haven't replaced him... to the best of my knowledge. That is a big reason why we are where we are and have been there for 5 years running.
The USA is further along the development pathway than we are. Whether one likes the NCAA route or not the fact is they are collectively stronger at soccer than we are. This is also a USA focused league with specific restrictions on international imports. To not look to the USA as a source, perhaps the primary source of players, is foolish.
Last edited by Pookie; 05-27-2012 at 06:09 PM.
MLS salary rules are like a CIA guarded secret. It is stated that the league max salary is $335k for any player. Therefore, the best guess is that teams employing his services (and those of other higher-than-the-max-non-DPs such as Conner Casey and others) have been using Allocation money to pay down the cap hit.
Allocation money is MLS' magic solution to everything. In 2010 they said it was made available "for exceptional circumstances as deemed appropriate by the competition committee." Further, the amounts made available were (and are) never disclosed. The competition committee was in essence, the league itself. In practical terms the league can award a sum of money to any team for any reason that it thinks will impact competitiveness or for any other circumstance and this amount is never disclosed. Sounds great doesn't it?
This reference was removed in subsequent years but it still exists.
Therefore, DeRo and a few others that exceed the league cap and are non-DPs were essentially allowed to circumvent the cap based on the allocation money flexibility. It is most likely that the teams are on the hook for the salary that exceeds the league max cap.
Yet another reason why the salary cap is more of a moving target and folks are best not to think of it as they do the NHL cap.
Last edited by Pookie; 05-27-2012 at 06:12 PM.
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