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  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    Here are some interesting stats that I came across this weekend in a discussion with Priz.

    Toronto FC is not only last in the league in goals allowed (no surprise, given our defensive issues), we are also tied for last in the league in goals scored, (TFC and Chivas have 7 each) for a combined -14 goal differential. The next closest team has -7 (Dallas).

    Last season, Toronto took over the all-time worst goal differential from Colorado. As of the end of the 2011 season, we have been scored on 73 more times than we have scored. With our worsened form, the -14 extends our ownership of that particular state to -87. The next closest is Colorado at +68 (they are +1 so far this season). We are 19 goals adrift in the all-time goal differential category. The chasm between us and the all time best goal differential team in MLS history (LA Galaxy at +142) is an eye-popping 229 goals.

    This highlights a few very interesting contradictions. We have repeatedly heard in some corners that this team is playing "better" but when you have the worst stats in the league in both defense and offence, I am not sure where the "better" can be found. Before Winter took over, we were sitting in 3rd worst in the league with a -50 goal differential. In barely over a season (43 games), we have dropped 37 goals more than we scored. It took 4 entire seasons (120 games) to get to -50, but in 43 games (almost a third of 120 games) we have come within 13 goals of matching that record of futility. That is beyond shocking.

    And finally, the stat that reared it's ugly head in this particular game against DC, their 2nd top scorer (DeRo) has 5 goals and 7 assists on the season. Our top 3 scorers have 5 goals and 3 asissts combined. (Koevermans: 2,0, Lambe: 2,1, Johnson: 1,2). Their top scorer (Santos) has more goals than our top 3, with 6 and both are ex-TFC.

    Somebody pass me the hard stuff, you couldn't make this stuff up if you tried.
    Please stop, my eyes can't take any more of these deplorable statistics...


  2. #272
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    Well, Koevermans probably put it best when he said we're setting the record for the worst team in the world. Poor guy looked completely despondent.

    What do we make of Winter still being there? Is it complete disinterest from MLSE? If the Leafs were in this streak you can be sure there would be some action taken. Or are they under a freeze until new ownership takes over? Shocking that nothing has happened.

  3. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    And finally, the stat that reared it's ugly head in this particular game against DC, their 2nd top scorer (DeRo) has 5 goals and 7 assists on the season. Our top 3 scorers have 5 goals and 3 asissts combined. (Koevermans: 2,0, Lambe: 2,1, Johnson: 1,2). Their top scorer (Santos) has more goals than our top 3, with 6 and both are ex-TFC.
    This is what gets me: There were 3 coaches during the time Santos and DeRo were together at TFC and none of them could get the duo to produce as they have with DCU this year under Ben Olsen. If three different coaches couldn't get the parts to fit, then you have to look at the people who hired these coaches. It keeps coming back to the people at the top in the FO.

    Does anyone know the exact date Bell/Rogers is taking over MLSE? Because this circus simply can't be allowed to continue. So long as ownership is in limbo providing no clear direction, we won't see any major changes to the existing structure and the damage being done to both the fanbase and player psyches may become irreversible.
    Last edited by Initial B; 05-22-2012 at 10:17 AM.

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    Here are some interesting stats that I came across this weekend in a discussion with Priz.

    Toronto FC is not only last in the league in goals allowed (no surprise, given our defensive issues), we are also tied for last in the league in goals scored, (TFC and Chivas have 7 each) for a combined -14 goal differential. The next closest team has -7 (Dallas).

    Last season, Toronto took over the all-time worst goal differential from Colorado. As of the end of the 2011 season, we have been scored on 73 more times than we have scored. With our worsened form, the -14 extends our ownership of that particular stat to -87. The next closest is Colorado at +68 (they are +1 so far this season). We are 19 goals adrift in the all-time goal differential category. The chasm between us and the all time best goal differential team in MLS history (LA Galaxy at +142) is an eye-popping 229 goals.

    This highlights a few very interesting contradictions. We have repeatedly heard in some corners that this team is playing "better" but when you have the worst stats in the league in both defense and offence, I am not sure where the "better" can be found. Before Winter took over, we were sitting in 3rd worst in the league with a -50 goal differential. In barely over a season (43 games), we have dropped 37 goals more than we scored. It took 4 entire seasons (120 games) to get to -50, but in 43 games (almost a third of 120 games) we have come within 13 goals of matching that record of futility. That is beyond shocking.

    And finally, the stat that reared it's ugly head in this particular game against DC, their 2nd top scorer (DeRo) has 5 goals and 7 assists on the season. Our top 3 scorers have 5 goals and 3 asissts combined. (Koevermans: 2,0, Lambe: 2,1, Johnson: 1,2). Their top scorer (Santos) has more goals than our top 3, with 6 and both are ex-TFC.

    Somebody pass me the hard stuff, you couldn't make this stuff up if you tried.

    You know, sometimes I read through the threads on here and I think the team is 4-4 and just needs a little nudge. We're talking about this defender or that and I read things like, "our offence is okay, it's the defence," and I forget the team is 0-9 in league play.

  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    Johnson on the wing is great. This is where most of his success has been this season. Defenders forget he's there and he has the ability to sneak in a get his goals.
    Johnson up the middle is bad. He can't play that holding striker position that Koevs/Gordan plays. He isn't strong enough to work through defenders to get the loose balls in the middle.
    Totally agreed. This is where Winter has made a serious error in judgement so far this season - he assumed that Johnson would be adequate cover for Koev's, but he isn't at all. Johnson is FAR better on the wing (not great, but far better than playing as the number 9!).

    If Koev's is only able to keep playing 1 out of every 2 games all season (which is likely for a 34 year old striker) then we really need to get a guy to cover - Johnson isn't going to be the answer.

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    ^ Not sure that was Winter's doing.

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    Interesting analysis of the game, from DC's viewpoint:

    In-game adjustments give Olsen a tactical edge
    With a contingency plan in place, Ben Olsen was prepared for anything against TFC
    http://www.dcunited.com/news/2012/05...-tactical-edge

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    Quote Originally Posted by Initial B View Post
    This is what gets me: There were 3 coaches during the time Santos and DeRo were together at TFC and none of them could get the duo to produce as they have with DCU this year under Ben Olsen. If three different coaches couldn't get the parts to fit, then you have to look at the people who hired these coaches. It keeps coming back to the people at the top in the FO.

    Does anyone know the exact date Bell/Rogers is taking over MLSE? Because this circus simply can't be allowed to continue. So long as ownership is in limbo providing no clear direction, we won't see any major changes to the existing structure and the damage being done to both the fanbase and player psyches may become irreversible.
    I hear it has been delayed, i think there is a very real posibility it may not happen until the season is done.

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    ^
    “Good players,” Olsen answered matter-of-factly when asked how he’d managed all the first-half shuffling against Toronto. “We’ve got some good players that are sitting on the bench and good players on the field. Good players let me make adjustments.”
    Doesn't Winter say the same thing?

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Initial B View Post
    ^
    Doesn't Winter say the same thing?

    Winter actually tends to go in the opposite direction and continuously refer to the need for "better players". Yeah, like $8million shouldn't have bought you good enough players for a league with a $2.8million salary cap?

    #lesswithmore

  11. #281
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    Complaining about needing better players is ludicrous. For starters, his payroll is way over the actual salary cap. Secondly, he assembled this team. These are HIS players!

    If he was unhappy with any of these players, he had the opportunity to shed them this past winter. I supported giving the guy the time to assemble his team and let them coalesce last season, with the expectations that hard evaluation of the standings would come next season. Well here we are, and the results are an abysmal failure. He needs to step up and take responsibility for that - not pipe up with nonsense about needing better players, and borderline non-sequiturs about how we are better than other teams.

    At this point, I think his sacking is an inevitability, whenever the hammer finally drops. The real question is what happens next.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Initial B View Post
    This is what gets me: There were 3 coaches during the time Santos and DeRo were together at TFC and none of them could get the duo to produce as they have with DCU this year under Ben Olsen. If three different coaches couldn't get the parts to fit, then you have to look at the people who hired these coaches. It keeps coming back to the people at the top in the FO.

    Does anyone know the exact date Bell/Rogers is taking over MLSE? Because this circus simply can't be allowed to continue. So long as ownership is in limbo providing no clear direction, we won't see any major changes to the existing structure and the damage being done to both the fanbase and player psyches may become irreversible.
    This isn't that linear. Santos crapped out at multiple teams before he got to DC, and he's had one-half of one good year. He did that with us -- he had six goals when we traded him, then only two the rest of the way for Dallas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    These are HIS players!

    If he was unhappy with any of these players, he had the opportunity to shed them this past winter....

    - Scott
    Again, you're writing off everything we've heard about player interference. It's easy to pick easy answers like "blame one guy" and I don't see much in his coaching worth keeping, but reducing every argument to its base to make ourselves feel better is ignoring reality. We've NEVER had a coach who could win here, and yet three of the five have coaching jobs elsehwere (and Mo and Preki appear to be retired). We can use the exact same argument for coaches as we can for players who didn't peform here, then went elsewhere.

    We've been married to two things throughout: The MLSE front office, and the Canadian quota. These are two consistencies that show up in every one of our issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Again, you're writing off everything we've heard about player interference. It's easy to pick easy answers like "blame one guy" and I don't see much in his coaching worth keeping, but reducing every argument to its base to make ourselves feel better is ignoring reality. We've NEVER had a coach who could win here, and yet three of the five have coaching jobs elsehwere (and Mo and Preki appear to be retired). We can use the exact same argument for coaches as we can for players who didn't peform here, then went elsewhere.

    We've been married to two things throughout: The MLSE front office, and the Canadian quota. These are two consistencies that show up in every one of our issues.
    I don't entirely blame Winter for this issue at all, nor do I think the coach is entirely to blame in almost any firing. However, his team is 0-9, and he needs to take responsibility for that record. He largely picks the players, and he picks the strategies. He was also given an entire season free of any serious expectations, in which to learn, and assemble his squad.

    I do think the Canadian quota is a joke, and is responsible to a lesser extent for some of our issues. And I think the MLSE executives in charge over overseeing TFC should pay for the last six years with their jobs.

    Unlike folks like Roogsy, I didn't come down on the side of Winter needing to go until very recently - like, a couple of weeks ago recently. And I still don't dislike the guy, or lay everything at his feet. I supported giving him time and space last season, to settle in and make the changes he needed to make. But now it's a new season, and we are 0-9. It's becoming more and more clear that turmoil is setting in behind the scenes. And while I don't think the blame is as simple as "Aron Winter", I think he needs to stand up and accept responsibility for all of it happening on his watch. As does Tom Anselmi, and the rest of them.

    If we've got it all wrong, and he simply can't do his job because of interference from people above his pay grade, then he should have the integrity to quit and make it known - not silently deal with it, and throw others under the bus when the media asks.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    You know, sometimes I read through the threads on here and I think the team is 4-4 and just needs a little nudge. We're talking about this defender or that and I read things like, "our offence is okay, it's the defence," and I forget the team is 0-9 in league play.
    That has been another huge dissapoinment. The supporters, after six years of this shit, and an 0-9 start, that is exaclty what they are acting like. As we are just about to go over from being a mediocare team, to a competitive team. Instead week after week I am told, about staying the course.

    WE NEED TO BLOW THIS SHIT UP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    Athleticism always trumps technique, eventually. We had this problem in high school, when my Canadian high school team woudl go across the border, and even though the American players lacked technique and played dump-and-chase, they were just better athletes. All the technique and tactical acumen couldn't beat being out-hustled, out-worked and out-finished.

    .
    A less tallented team, be that less athletic or less technicaly adept, can beat a more athletic and/or more tallented team but it takes more-hustle, more-work, and creating and finishing the chances. Chealsea was not better technically or athleticaly then either Barca or Bayern, and yet here they are.

    TFC has never been able to implement and execute a consistant tactical plan, nor play with consistant hustle, work, in a manner to create more chances then the opposition. ( which is done by mimimizing their chances and maximizing ours).

    [ Now when it comes to athleticims fitness is a must in football, so that you are as effective as a team in the 90th as in the 1st minuste of the game]
    Last edited by trane; 05-22-2012 at 05:12 PM.

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    Just browsing through bodog.ca looking at betting futures, came across the MLS...

    Best odds to win the league this year is the NYRB at 5/1, worst odds is Philly at 125/1.... that didn't seem to add up to me... so I looked it over a few times until a realized we aren't even given odds...

  18. #288
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    Those stats Roogsy highlighted paint a very ugly picture of the upper management's pathetically poor sporting record. I bet the numbers are also pretty rough for the basketball and hockey, but ours take the cake.

    It's obvious that far more than Winter need to go. ML$E's sports management has been all sizzle for far too long.


    Hey, Tom, where's the beef?
    Toronto FC baby...best team everrrrrrrrrr -Jozy

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    Quote Originally Posted by QSIM View Post
    Just browsing through bodog.ca looking at betting futures, came across the MLS...

    Best odds to win the league this year is the NYRB at 5/1, worst odds is Philly at 125/1.... that didn't seem to add up to me... so I looked it over a few times until a realized we aren't even given odds...
    Haha, im sure Vegas has some listings.

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    I haven't read through this thread but wanted to post this stat - sorry if it has already been posted.

    According to this article:
    http://www.torontosun.com/2012/05/20/will-tfc-ever-win

    We have lead for for a total of 5 minutes in 810 minutes of league play....ouch

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Those stats Roogsy highlighted paint a very ugly picture of the upper management's pathetically poor sporting record. I bet the numbers are also pretty rough for the basketball and hockey, but ours take the cake.

    It's obvious that far more than Winter need to go. ML$E's sports management has been all sizzle for far too long.


    Hey, Tom, where's the beef?

    They have been allowed to sell this team, on nothing, like we were this established legendary Club, when we have achieved so fucking little in six years, it is pathetic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brad View Post
    We have lead for for a total of 5 minutes in 810 minutes of league play....ouch
    Its actually 1 minute and a half.

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    Quote Originally Posted by narduch View Post
    Its actually 1 minute and a half.
    Wow. I thought 5 minutes was bad...

  24. #294
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    Watching the team trudge off the field on Saturday night was heartbreaking. There was a dozen of us who'd made it to that ash-tray of a stadium, so we stood up and let the team know we were there. We were heard, and acknowledged, by all but one player (and I cannot remember who it was...sorry).

    It must seem, to the players, that the entire world is against them. They cannot rely on the front office, the coach is incompetent, and their fellow players are sniping at them and they've been booed at BMO.

    It's hardly surprising that this team is performing this badly. I know that I couldn't work very well in a similar sort of environment.

    So, my son and I cheered them off the field, as did the other supporters there.

    Did it help? Maybe, maybe not. I don't care. I felt better having done it.

    And I will continue to do so.

    The front office, though, won't be getting any more of my money until I'm satisfied that they take their responsibility in putting a winning team out there as strongly as I do. No shirts, no MLSE food, and no beer.
    O, Maple Leaf around the world, You speak as you rise high above,
    Of courage, peace and quiet strength, Of the Canada that I love.
    Remind us all, our union bound by ties we cannot sever,
    Bright flag revered on every ground, The Maple Leaf forever

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    ^ The old its the supporters fault. I new it would show up sooner or later.


    Yes they are under too much pressure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trane View Post
    ^ The old its the supporters fault. I new it would show up sooner or later.


    Yes they are under too much pressure.
    The supporters alone cannot fix the problems and neither are they the cause. They can be a part of the solution, though.
    O, Maple Leaf around the world, You speak as you rise high above,
    Of courage, peace and quiet strength, Of the Canada that I love.
    Remind us all, our union bound by ties we cannot sever,
    Bright flag revered on every ground, The Maple Leaf forever

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    I am at a low point. I watched the interviews on Toronto FC TV and it is depressing. Not one of those players look like they want to be here and not one looks like they believe in this team.

    We may not have a proud history but we have a lot to be proud of as fans. Today, I am not proud.

    I don't mean to be a downer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huyton View Post
    Watching the team trudge off the field on Saturday night was heartbreaking. There was a dozen of us who'd made it to that ash-tray of a stadium, so we stood up and let the team know we were there. We were heard, and acknowledged, by all but one player (and I cannot remember who it was...sorry).

    It must seem, to the players, that the entire world is against them. They cannot rely on the front office, the coach is incompetent, and their fellow players are sniping at them and they've been booed at BMO.

    It's hardly surprising that this team is performing this badly. I know that I couldn't work very well in a similar sort of environment.

    So, my son and I cheered them off the field, as did the other supporters there.

    Did it help? Maybe, maybe not. I don't care. I felt better having done it.

    And I will continue to do so.
    Glad you did it. Good for you and the rest. Did it help? I'm sure that in some way it did but at the same time it probably made them feel even more pangs of guilt for the futility they are subjecting us too.

    It's a no win (eek, sorry) situation for those poor buggers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sally Mack View Post
    Semi-related side note: I'm impressed with what saputo has done with the impact. It appears as though he's built a better squad in his first year than we have ever had in 6 seasons. I find myself asking why TFC can't do that
    I find this kind of comment interesting. I don't want to pick on you. But on this board one half of the people comment on how TFC or other teams look... that's considered "subjective" by some. So then the other half of the people talk about "points" since that's objective.

    Whether or not Montreal "appears better" than any team we've ever had, the objective fact is that their current 'points per game' is worse than 3 of TFC's first 5 seasons. Not to mention the fact that TFC had 13 points in their first 12 games in their expansion year. Montreal currently has 12 points in 12 games. If one wants to praise Montreal, it'd be best to wait and see what happens.

    And Montreal needs to significantly pick up the points pace to come close to TFC's 39 points in 30 games in 2009 (they'd need 44 in 34 to match the points per game).

    So if someone was not impressed with what TFC did in 2008, 2009, and 2010, they should not be impressed with what Montreal is doing so far this season. Unless it's all about "looks" and not points.
    Last edited by rocker; 05-22-2012 at 11:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post
    Whether or not Montreal "appears better" than any team we've ever had, the objective fact is that their current 'points per game' is worse than 3 of TFC's first 5 seasons. Not to mention the fact that TFC had 13 points in their first 12 games in their expansion year. Montreal currently has 12 points in 12 games. If one wants to praise Montreal, it'd be best to wait and see what happens.
    People are impressed with Montreal because they are ahead of TFC NOW.

    Talking about TFC's points per games in previous seasons is irrelevant when analyzing the present.

 

 

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