“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
the fact that this thread is only 4 pages deep tells you the apathy of the fanbase. A year ago there would have been 10 pages by 11 pm last night.
I get the feeling many of us simply accept this and no longer care. Apathy is worse than anger for MLSE.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
MLSE should fine Danny K. Can you imagine?
“We changed the entire league’s opinion of the viability of soccer in North America. And then we blew it because we chickened out." —Tim Leiweke
I dumped my season tickets so am no longer shelling out to the shills....only thing the RPB can do to help send a message to mlse ownership is to STOP chanting, singing, cheering. I know some of you would find this difficult cause it goes against the grain of team support, but this is precisely the reason you embrace it for a while....other teams, other leagues go through this and their supporters do things like turning their backs on the pitch, refusing to sing etc....you should time this around the next nationally televised game, or one that is broadcast in the US.....that will hurt mlse, and have an impact on negotiating their ad rights to the games.....the RPB helped create the excitement, now it may be wise to pause for a bit and see how apathy affects the team operation....just my thoughts
quick response to random comments
kocic has moments of brilliance buy would never have him as mu number one unfotunatly we are stuck...
chelsea played pure italian styles last night... and they got the job done.
i cant wait to see the concacaf email asking for more money for qualifier games... gonna be somewhat comical
and as always toronto till i die...
o and forza juve huge game today.
There is certainly a contingent of supporters in agreement that changes need to start at the top, but I still felt the need to highlight your post and chime in.
You, earlier, pointed out that you were following the DC stream (as was I), where they touched on much of the same things we've been saying, over the clubs entire existence: meddling execs. and so on. I think that, with the hiring of Winter, they wanted to take up the appearance of changing the culture, but, the more things change, the more they remain the same.. unless you really demolish things; it's like trying to rebuild a house, after it's foundation has been severely compromised by fire.
When Winter was hired, there were already a few questions being asked about him not selecting Mariner and how that might play out .. well, there was much explaining to do about the various roles then, but we've seen how that ended up. More evidence of him being set up to fail is this Mantra of our vision and culture; we were so desperate, that we (he) had to cling to these principles for dear life. There have been many comparisons made with previous coaches, but, I think that what we're seeing now is how much easier exposed our systemic problems are, as Winter attempts a much more difficult and intricate task than any of his predecessors.. ergo, the massive lows.
Call me an apologist, if you like (probably am, tbh).. but, there has been one constant -- one bad apple, spoiling the bunch and piling more apples on top won't sort this out.
As an SSH, and active reader of these threads, I wasn't even aware there was a game last night. Watching TFC on the road on a saturday isn't a high priority when there are so many other ways to enjoy a weekend. We've all discussed how hard it is to unload extra seats. In fact, I'm not even sure if I want TFC to win on wednesday. On one hand, CCL games are now the only meaningful ones TFC will play this year, on the other hand an 0-9 last place in the league team being your country's rep in the competition is a bit ridiculous. And unless attendance for those games drops to 5,000, MLSE will consider it a success, and a reason to not make sweeping changes on the field, in the front office, and in how they treat the SSH.
On paper, we're 0-9, but in reality we haven't won a league game for 2 MONTHS! Imagine the Leafs started a season like this. I don't know what ML$E is waiting for. Even if they're only worried about the money, at some point they have to realize the apathy that is setting in, and start worrying about renewals.
maybe MLSE thought they were joining MLS(MULTIPLE LISTING SERVICE) 6 yrs ago so that they can sell there fucking condos.
How ironic that TFC has its own donut and they are donut and 9 to start the season?
I'd like to see an open letter to MLSE from the RPB President documenting our frustration and concern for the future stability of the club. I'd like to see us come up with a list of demands (fire the three wise men, sell the team etc) and all get behind it. We need to show we are dead serious about our demands.
Tell the fans if they want to show support to the demands wear a common color (black, green etc) to all home games indicating you will not be renewing your seasons seats unless the demands have been met.
I am adding my 2 cents here at the end. I have been a season ticket holder from day 1, and have barely missed a game since despite the heat I get. From my wife every week. I agree with many that changes have to happen at the top. MLSE and Anselmi care more about the food they provide us at every game, and merchandise sold than the on field product. The bureaucracy as stated earlier as well is unbelievable especially that most are not football people or football people who have not accomplished anything in the sport. Yet they are given these extremely cushy jobs, just like the old CSA, and are clueless. When Winter arrived I believed he was going to be the saviour. I still do. He arrived way too late to have an impact on the team and that is fact, and he inherited a bunch of hacks. But he is still surrounded by ineptitude around him. Just like Carver was. Look where Carver is now.
Secondly, the team really lacks quality. Outside of a few players, we do not have any MLS quality players, let alone professionals. You cannot expect much from Ashtone Morgan or Doneil Henry. Good young talents, but they are not starters. Developmental players. Kocic...well he is not Frei. He was in the CSL. Sure he makes the odd good save, but he is not a professional. Semi-pro at best. Can sucks crap,, Aceval is talented but has nobody to play wiy Most teams in the MLs, including Montreal and Vaancouver have much better scouting. How the he'll can Montreal bring in Italian players under the cap, and not DP's when we cannot. Or most other players bring in South American talents. who the fuck have we brougt in outside Guevera. He was the best player and talent that graced the pitch at BMO.
Bottom l
Sorry for the grammar mistakes....writing quickly from my IPad. And very frustrated.
Didn't Barry Fry at Peterborough or Birmingham get some kind of voodoo-doctor into the stadium to get rid of the curse? We could do something like that? *getting desparate*
I still can't believe this 0 and 9 start.......to think I thought TFC had a chance to make the playoffs with this lineup
I agree with most of this... although I think the team has quality. Even Jason DeVos has argued that the quality is there in most positions. Koev, Johnson, Frings, Avila, Lambe, Soolsma are good enough for MLS, I think. Even Plata is good enough -- he's better than speedy guys like Nyassi and Richards were when they started in the league (those guys had less on-the-ball skill a few years ago, and Plata is just as fast now... only now are Nyassi and Richards good players in MLS.)
I think however, that the our achilles heal of defense has never been fixed, either with better players or with a style of play that would "make do" with the inexperienced backline (Preki did this, making Cann, Gargan and Attakora look world-class despite the style being ugly ... I still wouldn't want a return to THAT... that's certainly an extreme case).
I mean, a backline of Hall or Eckersley + Henry + Cann + Morgan has an average age of 23.5 years. How many MLS teams have such a young, inexperienced backline? MLS games turn on a dime, really (Bruce Arena called it a coin flip league when he was in NY). With that in mind, a young backline is going to make mistakes, and MLS forwards are good enough now to make teams pay for those dumb mistakes. That's why people have often said TFC plays fine at times... there's enough experience and quality up front but the style is putting too much pressure on the defense and/or the defense is too inexperienced. While I like the develop-from-the-academy or bring-in-good-youth approach, I think it's way too much to have 3 of your 4 defenders learning the game as they go along. Most MLS teams have much more of a mix on defense... maybe 1 of the 4 is a kid learning the game... max 2... but the best teams seem to have 3 of the 4 defenders as mid-career players and veterans.
One point though: the reason Montreal can bring in certain players is because expansion teams get extra money that other MLS don't. Montreal's real cap test will come in the 3rd and 4th years, when they have the same money as other teams.
Last edited by rocker; 05-20-2012 at 12:55 PM.
This Wednesday's game going to be do or die game for Winter. Hopefully we start all our DP now. Our best players (Frings and Danny K) haven't been healthy so far which is putting extra pressure on younger, inexperience and less quality players (like Dunfield) to perform.
When was the last time we had all our 3 DP players playing together on the pitch?
I agree, one of our fundamental problems is we have too many youth not quite ready to play at this leval consistantly. What bugs me.everytime is when its mentioned we should loan some players out, not it being mentioned but that they have a point and we NEVER see players in the league being loaned.
For example, Cordon, Vukic, Omphroy(last year), Mukabuya and possibly others should be with other clubs gaining experiance. We dont have a solid structure in place like EU, TFC want young players to develop but at some point they become to old fo the academy meaning its either they make Tfc ot not. In other league what would happen is players like Vukic would have been signed then sent to an affiliate, i suspect many of our current acedmy products would be ahead of the game if they have had more experiance in other leagues.
A public protest is a good idea, but it's not like they don't know they're 0-9.
The thing is, from the very beginning this team has been poorly put together with lousy infratsructure. We've treated it like a 'real' team with a real front office and real scouts and real training staff and we've demanded that a few individuals be fired - and they all have been, from Mo Must Go, to the end of Prekiball and probably soon Winter - and the rest of the league keeps getting better and we keep getting worse.
Now we have a laughable structure with technical this and developmental that, the place is full of embarrassing buzzwords and marketing crap.
If ever there was a situation that called for a back-to-basics, keep it simple approach it's this one. But no, what we get are silly grandiose talk about, "affecting the way the game is played in north America," and how in ten years we'll have the best.... something.
I just wish they would stop with the big time plans and bullshit talk and try to be an MLS team that can win a few games.
I feel terrible for the lads who are still giving it all week in week out for the club. Danny looks like hes about to break into tears in his interview.
I have a serious question - how do you support the club (the lads who deserve it) without demonstrating complacency or a sense of acceptance towards MLSE, etc.?
Just how many MLS games do you watch per week, to make this statement? Curious.
Plenty of 19-20 yr olds get game mins in MLS. Maybe not as much as Morgan and Henry does, but guys like Luis Gil, Andy Najar (you know, the kid who torched our left side last game), etc. have role to play in their team in big ways.You cannot expect much from Ashtone Morgan or Doneil Henry. Good young talents, but they are not starters. Developmental players.
By your definition, good MLS players with USL/NASL time on their resume also sucks. I wonder what Josh Saunders, Jon Busch feels about that.Kocic...well he is not Frei. He was in the CSL. Sure he makes the odd good save, but he is not a professional. Semi-pro at best.
Kocic went to CSL to get first team mins, because he was behind Frei and Edwards in depth at the time. Not because he sucked.
Aceval doesn't have enough pace and agility to keep up with athletic MLS strikers and wingers. He's not talented enough to make it up with positioning or football smarts.Can sucks crap,, Aceval is talented but has nobody to play wiy
I'll give you that, though Vancouver really haven't done much to explore outside NA for their talent. Lee Young Pyo sounds like he dropped into their lap, and Martin Bonjour is looking very average lately. Montreal's now linked to every single overaged Serie A player looking for a final paycheck. Whoopie.Most teams in the MLs, including Montreal and Vaancouver have much better scouting. How the he'll can Montreal bring in Italian players under the cap, and not DP's when we cannot.Pablo Vitti? Caicedo, Plata, Aceval.Or most other players bring in South American talents. who the fuck have we brougt in outside Guevera. He was the best player and talent that graced the pitch at BMO.
Bottom l
Guevara isn't even South American, and he showed up like half the time.
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
Yep, that would be a good idea.
Regarding the experience thing -- some of the better MLS coaches don't necessarily go with all older vets on the backline, but they intersperse vets with youth. Bruce Arena has been pretty good at having those no-name, mid-career MLSers who are fundamentally sound but not flashy -- think Dunivant or Sean Franklin. It hasn't quite worked for Arena this season, but he'll keep it close to the playoffs. Arena brings in kids here and there, like he did with Omar Gonzalez... but then he had Gregg Berhalter (US international and veteran MLSer) to keep things together.
Right now we're just too young and inexperienced on defense, which falls on Winter and Mariner. Aceval could have brought that experience but it hasn't worked. The Caicedo experiment could have helped, but it failed.
I like Morgan and Henry... some day I bet these guys will be MLS starters and national team regulars. But at this very moment, they are not good enough to get 90 minutes day in day out. Arena would never start these two, together, 90 minutes every game. If this was 2010, maybe he would have Henry alongside Berhalter... or Morgan on one side with Berhalter, Gonzalez, and Franklin. Imagine if Jason Kreis played Morgan with Olave, Borchers, and Beltran? He'd probably be fine as they would direct him on coverage. Even Henry or Cann next to Olave would be perfectly fine, since Olave is a beast and the two outside backs are experienced. But what was Olave doing when he was 19? What was Borchers doing when he was 21? Probably not in the situation TFC has now.
This is also why I think some of our players leave to other teams and do fine: they are inherently decent MLS players but they need help. They are being hung out to dry when their teammates are just as experienced as they are. It's also why Frings made such an amazing contribution when he arrived -- he was bringing that tactical awareness and experience that the athletic kids just don't have yet.
I wonder about this as well. I think there are few factors
-MLS teams do not want to eat up a loan player's salary, because NASL/USL teams do not want to pay for a loanee's wages. NASL/USL don't have a salary cap IIRC, but their operating budget is so small that even the min wage MLS players will have a big impact on their salary budget. A loaned player for MLS team is just a player eating up salary cap space, and maybe even a roster spot.
-NASL/USL is probably sick of MLS poaching their best moneymaking cities.
-Suspected quality in USL/NASL play, because except for very few players, not many D2 players end up doing well enough in MLS
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano